US DOJ Calls Bitcoin Mixing ‘a Crime’ in Arrest of Software Developer - page 3.

stompix

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Quote from: gentlemand on February 20, 2020, 08:54:48 AM

"This indictment underscores that seeking to obscure virtual currency transactions in this way is a crime"
That's what stands out to me. He was actively facilitating money laundering. That was his whole raison d'etre. He'd be just as nailed for doing the same thing in any other form.

Iasenko, you should have put the whole paragraph

Quote from: avikz on February 20, 2020, 09:06:07 AM

Let's look at the legal definition of money laundering first,

Quote

Money laundering is the illegal process of concealing the origins of money obtained illegally by passing it through a complex sequence of banking transfers or commercial transactions.

Reference: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering
So in a way, mixing services are doing exactly the same. It is a service to conceal the origin of the fund. So as per definition, it is illegal in real world.

Not sure what would be it's crypto definition!

It is illegal if the money is obtained illegally.
I can take my wage money, withdraw some from an ATM, deposit on a different bank, load my PayPal account, buy a paysafecard with it, buy some game credits for a friend, receive 20 euros cash from him, deposit that on my bank account...
Anything illegal in it?

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Quote from: gentlemand on February 20, 2020, 08:54:48 AM

"This indictment underscores that seeking to obscure virtual currency transactions in this way is a crime"

This is also the thing that made the whole thing somewhat understandable and cleared all the vagueness of the statement for me. Had the transaction been a legitimate one and mixed through the said process, there wouldn't be any indictment nor a case to begin with.

Quote from: avikz on February 20, 2020, 09:06:07 AM

Let's look at the legal definition of money laundering first,

Quote

Money laundering is the illegal process of concealing the origins of money obtained illegally by passing it through a complex sequence of banking transfers or commercial transactions.

Reference: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering

So in a way, mixing services are doing exactly the same. It is a service to conceal the origin of the fund. So as per definition, it is illegal in real world.

Not sure what would be it's crypto definition!

The bolded word already differs what the case did and what other mixing services did. Sure, there will be no way to know whether the funds that are being mixed on a mixing service is legitimate or not, but in this case, Harmon has been caught with some form of acquaintanceship with AlphaBay, and was somewhat noted to have some form of illegal activities on the side. Even if the mixing part of the funds weren't caught, the dude will be jailed nonetheless.

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Quote from: TheBeardedBaby on February 20, 2020, 08:46:04 AM

This article really took my attention and I couldn't find it here
Seems that the US Department of Justice have stated their opining regarding the mixing of coins. Does this make all the bitcoin mixers illegal?
What is the future of such services from now on?
US DOJ Calls Bitcoin Mixing ‘a Crime’ in Arrest of Software Developer
a quote from the article:

Quote

In a statement Thursday, Justice Department Assistant Attorney General Brian Benczkowski made the department’s views on bitcoin mixers clear. “This indictment underscores that seeking to obscure virtual currency transactions in this way is a crime,” he said.

The Helix case file:
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/ohio-resident-charged-operating-darknet-based-bitcoin-mixer-which-laundered-over-300-million

I don't see the issue with mixing legit funds, since you'll still be able to explain where the funds are from. Larry Harmon is suspected of having a partnership with AlphaBay, actively laundering their funds.

avikz

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Let's look at the legal definition of money laundering first,

Quote

Money laundering is the illegal process of concealing the origins of money obtained illegally by passing it through a complex sequence of banking transfers or commercial transactions.

Reference: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering

So in a way, mixing services are doing exactly the same. It is a service to conceal the origin of the fund. So as per definition, it is illegal in real world.

Not sure what would be it's crypto definition!

gentlemand

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Welt Am Draht

Quote from: rosezionjohn on February 20, 2020, 09:02:45 AM

So if done the other way like coinjoin like you mentioned and using privacy coins like monero, it won't be a crime. That's how I understood it.

I would've thought so. But the gist I get from this, and I might be wrong, is that he created this service for no other reason than working with dark markets. He was also running some sort of drug search engine too.

That's rather different from another centralised service being used by all and sundry.

I expect all centralised mixing to become too hot eventually but this is a specific set of circumstances not repeated elsewhere.

rosezionjohn

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First was some people calling mixers a tool used by hackers, illegal gamblers, and money launderers.
Second is having articles like in the OP that using it is a crime.
Third will probably launching an investigation then arresting people behind these services.

Quote from: gentlemand on February 20, 2020, 08:54:48 AM

"This indictment underscores that seeking to obscure virtual currency transactions in this way is a crime"

So if done the other way like coinjoin like you mentioned and using privacy coins like monero, it won't be a crime. That's how I understood it.

gentlemand

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"This indictment underscores that seeking to obscure virtual currency transactions in this way is a crime"

That's what stands out to me. He was actively facilitating money laundering. That was his whole raison d'etre. He'd be just as nailed for doing the same thing in any other form.

It's a rather different proposition to some average person doing a Coinjoin type thing.

TheBeardedBaby

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₿uy / $ell ..oeleo ;(

This article really took my attention and I couldn't find it here
Seems that the US Department of Justice have stated their opining regarding the mixing of coins. Does this make all the bitcoin mixers illegal?
What is the future of such services from now on?
US DOJ Calls Bitcoin Mixing ‘a Crime’ in Arrest of Software Developer
a quote from the article:

Quote

In a statement Thursday, Justice Department Assistant Attorney General Brian Benczkowski made the department’s views on bitcoin mixers clear. “This indictment underscores that seeking to obscure virtual currency transactions in this way is a crime,” he said.

The Helix case file:
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/ohio-resident-charged-operating-darknet-based-bitcoin-mixer-which-laundered-over-300-million

Topic: US DOJ Calls Bitcoin Mixing ‘a Crime’ in Arrest of Software Developer - page 3. (Read 773 times)