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Topic: us fiscal cliff: what is it? - page 2. (Read 3748 times)

legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 4801
January 09, 2013, 09:07:28 AM
#34
. . . Investment causes production causes consumption.  It can be no other way, because eating an apple can never happen before the apple tree grows, and the tree can never grow before it is planted . . .
The other way to look at that is that nobody will bother planting an apple tree, and collecting the apples if other people aren't going to eat them.  The profit motive drives the land owner to plant an orchard, and without expected consumption he wouldn't bother.

. . . In the same way, a computer came from a factory, and the factory had to be built . . .
In the same way, the computer manufacturer builds additional factories only when the rate of consumption exceeds his current factories' rate of production.

So which is the driver, consumption or investment?

. . . When consumer spending slows, the government must step in to prevent the end of the world.  And governments don't have assets, they borrow.
If this is the reason behind borrowing, then why would they continue to borrow in times when consumer spending is growing?  Seem like there must be more to it than this.
kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1026
January 09, 2013, 08:13:45 AM
#33
I wish I could see some actual math reasons on why politicians are so damn scared of paying off their debt but to me it seems like the only reasoning they have for not paying off their debts is ideological neo-keynesian bullshit where they want to keep inflation going as much as possible to keep the never ending lending up from what I know anyway.

Well...  If you are interested in a serious understanding of how it works today, google Steve Keen and read a bunch of his blog posts, lectures and papers.  The important words to be looking for are "credit impulse".

Short version:

Investment causes production causes consumption.  It can be no other way, because eating an apple can never happen before the apple tree grows, and the tree can never grow before it is planted.  In the same way, a computer came from a factory, and the factory had to be built.  But, under keynesianism, we've shifted the way we do our accounting so that consumption is primary.  GDP, for example, is a measure of consumption (spending), rather than a measure of production or investment.  So, when spending slows, all of our accounting shows that the end of the world is coming.  When consumer spending slows, the government must step in to prevent the end of the world.  And governments don't have assets, they borrow.
legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1000
January 09, 2013, 02:39:24 AM
#32
I wish I could see some actual math reasons on why politicians are so damn scared of paying off their debt but to me it seems like the only reasoning they have for not paying off their debts is ideological neo-keynesian bullshit where they want to keep inflation going as much as possible to keep the never ending lending up from what I know anyway.
hero member
Activity: 672
Merit: 500
January 08, 2013, 05:03:35 PM
#31
So what happened?

The can was kicked down the road. 

For the average person it means an increase in (Social Security) payroll tax of 2%.  It's technically not an increase since all that was done was the temporary decrease was not renewed for another year but either way, workers will be paying more taxes.

Long-term it might mean another downgrade for US debt if congress isn't able to come to a long-term agreement. 
sr. member
Activity: 328
Merit: 250
January 08, 2013, 02:27:46 AM
#30
So what happened?
hero member
Activity: 509
Merit: 564
"In Us We Trust"
January 07, 2013, 08:52:48 PM
#29
can someone explain it in simple terms, holding back on the paranoia a little.

what is it?
what is it going to accomplish for the united states?
why?

It's when the US government sh*ts out a titanium coin they deem is "worth" 1 trillion dollars so that we can pay our debts and spend more money...

Nah, that is a proposed reaction to the debt limit crisis.  It has nothing to do with "the Fiscal Cliff".  Two separate political issues.  "The Fiscal Cliff" was a specific name chosen for a specific event.  Trying to apply it as a name to every fiscal event you disagree with doesn't make it so.

Yeah I know but this was the closest related thread I could find without being annoying and starting a new one. I can't give it THAT much importance :-P
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 4801
January 07, 2013, 08:37:54 PM
#28
. . . the media took a term in common internet usage and made it into something totally different overnight.  Fuck you, media!
Yep.  But that is what we are stuck with now.  If someone is asking about "The Fiscal Cliff", and they don't clarify what they mean, you can either get clarification, or assume that they are talking about the particular fiscal cliff that the media hyped up towards the end of 2012.
kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1026
January 07, 2013, 08:13:57 PM
#27
The hilarious thing is that for years, tons of blogs and commentators have been using terms very much like "fiscal cliff" to mean the whole stupid debt/entitlement situation that we've gotten ourselves into over the last 20/50/100 years.  I don't feel like digging through archives tonight, but I'd be totally amazed if there weren't thousands of uses of that exact phrase to be found in old posts from the last 5-10 years.

When I started hearing the term from ordinary folks, I nearly cried with joy, thinking that the idea had finally crept into mainstream consciousness.

Nope.  Just like "tea party", the media took a term in common internet usage and made it into something totally different overnight.  Fuck you, media!
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 4801
January 07, 2013, 06:32:16 PM
#26
can someone explain it in simple terms, holding back on the paranoia a little.

what is it?
what is it going to accomplish for the united states?
why?

It's when the US government sh*ts out a titanium coin they deem is "worth" 1 trillion dollars so that we can pay our debts and spend more money...

Nah, that is a proposed reaction to the debt limit crisis.  It has nothing to do with "the Fiscal Cliff".  Two separate political issues.  "The Fiscal Cliff" was a specific name chosen for a specific event.  Trying to apply it as a name to every fiscal event you disagree with doesn't make it so.
hero member
Activity: 509
Merit: 564
"In Us We Trust"
January 07, 2013, 06:05:17 PM
#25
can someone explain it in simple terms, holding back on the paranoia a little.

what is it?
what is it going to accomplish for the united states?
why?

It's when the US government sh*ts out a titanium coin they deem is "worth" 1 trillion dollars so that we can pay our debts and spend more money...
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Shame on everything; regret nothing.
January 03, 2013, 11:38:53 PM
#24

Bitcoins are a nice hedge in this scenario


i.e. "mark of the beast"
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 502
December 31, 2012, 02:03:55 PM
#23
It's best explained in pictures,

what happened when USA couldn't pay it's bills last time?

1971 Nixon closed the gold window and the Bretton Woods (gold backed) dollar was dead and replaced with a new fiat debt backed dollar...



Now imagine paying your mortgage at 10-19% interest rate in the new $Amero



Backed with the hard assets of Canada's (lumber/tar oil), Mexico's (silver/gold) and USA's (corn/wheat) Grin

I remember people talking about the Amero back in '09. All my friends thought I was bonkers.

As to the "Fiscal Cliff", here's the real deal. I picked up this information from some guy in a pub:
The 21-12-12 Mayan apocalypse date signified the start of the Biblical 7 year Tribulation period. The gun control
business and the fiscal cliff are the heralding events. Bitcoins are a nice hedge in this scenario
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
December 10, 2012, 10:04:00 AM
#22
The term "fiscal cliff" is PR for "eventual result of the massive failures that have been fiscal and foreign policy for the past decades".

The hosts are trying very hard to keep the party going, as someone said earlier, it takes a lot stronger of a kick to get that can just a little further each time. We are getting there, the evidence exists clearly. Consider just the past five years and the massive acceleration of cash influx out of thin air, the bailouts, the stimulus, the tarp, . . . .These are indications that "it" is coming. There will be a massive devaluation, a "new dollar", or an "international dollar" would be my speculation. The dollar is spent, it lives as a shadow that lingers on only due to former trust and value.
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
December 10, 2012, 09:54:13 AM
#21
It's best explained in pictures,

what happened when USA couldn't pay it's bills last time?

1971 Nixon closed the gold window and the Bretton Woods (gold backed) dollar was dead and replaced with a new fiat debt backed dollar...



Now imagine paying your mortgage at 10-19% interest rate in the new $Amero



Backed with the hard assets of Canada's (lumber/tar oil), Mexico's (silver/gold) and USA's (corn/wheat) Grin
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 502
December 04, 2012, 06:10:25 PM
#20
can someone explain it in simple terms, holding back on the paranoia a little.

what is it?
what is it going to accomplish for the united states?
why?

Long shot guess is planned economic collapse to usher in the 21/12/12 Mayan Apocalypse/End of Days as a self-fulfilling prophesy method to bring about the second coming of the Messiah and thus a new system of religious control. Or maybe press hyperbole.
sr. member
Activity: 455
Merit: 250
You Don't Bitcoin 'till You Mint Coin
December 04, 2012, 09:37:49 AM
#19
The "Fiscal Cliff" is nothing more than a bunch of fear mongering and propaganda from politicians who don't want
you to complain when you get a tax increase enema. "I'm sure glad I can more taxes so
we could avoid that fiscal cliff".

They need to increase taxes to try and curb the coming increase in inflation to the US Dollar.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
December 04, 2012, 09:29:59 AM
#18
legendary
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1003
Ron Gross
December 04, 2012, 08:55:20 AM
#17
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
December 03, 2012, 09:49:52 AM
#16
thanks danny, all clear!
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 4801
December 03, 2012, 09:18:24 AM
#15
can someone explain it in simple terms, holding back on the paranoia a little. . .

Something I put together for a friend recently (paranoia free):

The fiscal cliff is a combination of 2 budget related events that are scheduled to occur at the same time.

Part 1:
In 2001 and 2003, there were legislative efforts to make significant changes in the areas of the U.S. Internal Revenue Code.  These changes would have the effect of significantly reducing revenue for the U.S.  There was already in place a rule in the U.S. Senate that allowed Senators to block any budget changes which would significantly increase the federal deficit beyond ten years.  To get around this rule (and the Senators who would use it to block the legislation), the changes were written to expire on January 1, 2011.  At that time, if no further efforts to extend the law were successful, all the changes to the U.S. Internal Revenue Code would revert back to the way it was (higher taxes, increased revenue).

In 2010, the U.S. was in a period of economic recession.  There was a fear that increasing the tax burden on businesses and individuals at that time would only deepen and increase the duration of the recession.  Those who sided with President Obama on the matter, wanted to create a new law that would maintain the lower tax burden on those earning less than $250,000 while allowing the changes to revert back to pre-2001 for those earning more.  Those who did not side with the President wanted to extend the duration of the lower tax burden for everyone, including those earning more than $250,000.  A compromise was worked out that would maintain the post-2001 changes for everyone until January 1, 2013 and would give President and his supporters some other things they wanted that might otherwise have been difficult to get through Congress.

This means that on January 1, 2013, unless the legislators in Congress can come to an agreement on how to deal with the situation, the tax U.S. Internal Revenue Code changes that were made in 2001 and 2003 will expire and most individuals in the U.S. will see an increase in their tax burden in 2013 as compared to the years since 2001.  This increase in revenue does not automatically trigger any increase in spending and, while it would significantly reduce the federal deficit, many see it as a significant hindrance to U.S. economic activity, possibly enough to push the country back into another economic recession.  President Obama and his supporters are once again asking for an extension of the lower tax burden for those earning less than $250,000 while allowing the tax burden to revert to pre-2001 levels on those earning more than $250,000, suggesting that the increased revenue from those higher earners is necessary to reduce the federal deficit.  Those who do not side with the President want instead to extend the lower the tax burden indefinitely for everyone and deal with deficit reduction through spending cuts.

Part 2:
The United States has this silly law created in 1917 often referred to as the "debt ceiling".  This law does not prevent Congress from creating budgets that increase the national debt, it simply prevents the government from issuing new bonds to cover the costs of that increased spending.  The national budget and the debt ceiling are two completely separate processes that happen at different times.  Congress can at any time they find it necessary vote to increase the debt ceiling in order to continue to issue bonds to cover the budgeted spending. In 2010 (or early 2011, I can't remember), the U.S. Congress passed a budget that would increase the national debt beyond the debt ceiling in the summer of 2011.  The assumption was that the debt ceiling would later be increased as it had been regularly (over 80 times) in the past. At this time there were some members in congress who wanted to significantly reduce spending to reduce the deficit and preferably reduce the debt.  Being a minority of the Congress, they didn't get the spending cuts they wanted. Since the debt ceiling places a limit on the ability of the government to pay obligations it has already incurred, these members of congress decided that they could use the potential damage to the country of being incapable of raising additional funds as leverage to get concessions from the majority that they otherwise might not have been able to get.  Breaking a filibuster in the Senate requires 60% of Senators to agree, meaning that a 40% minority can prevent a new law from being passed.  Essentially a minority of members in Congress held the country's debt ceiling hostage until the majority of members met their demands.

A compromise was eventually reached whereby the debt ceiling would be increased (under the current budget it will need to be increased again in February of 2013) and some spending cuts would be made.  In addition as part of the compromise, a law was passed that required the Congress to find another compromise to cut $1.5 trillion.  A deadline of December 23, 2011 was placed in the law to find this compromise. To give all parties in Congress an incentive to work out a compromise, if they failed to do so by the deadline then there would be an automatic across-the-board cuts of spending split equally between defense and non-defense programs.  These automatic cuts were scheduled to occur on January 1, 2013.  Supposedly the idea was to create a financial situation severe enough that all parties involved would be willing to compromise.  Congress failed to find a compromise they could all agree to.  I suspect that each side thought that they'd fare better after the November 2012 election and figured they'd just wait until December 2012 to use the results of the election as leverage to get what they want.

This means that on January 1, 2013, unless the legislators in Congress can come to an agreement on how to deal with the situation, U.S. government spending will be cut substantially without consideration to the value of the programs receiving the cuts. Many see this decrease in government spending as a significant hindrance to U.S. economic activity, possibly enough to push the country back into another economic recession.

Fiscal Cliff:
Given the explanation above, on January 1, 2013 if no further action is taken, federal income tax rates for most people will increase to what they were prior to 2001 and the government will cut spending by well over $1 trillion.  While this will have the benefit of significantly reducing the deficit, there are many who believe that pulling that much money out of a fragile economy that is still working its way out of a recent recession could bring about an economic depression worse than the country has ever experienced in the past.



TLDR; In 2010 the government extended the "Bush Tax Cuts" to Jan. 1, 2013.  In 2011 the government scheduled over $1 trillion in across-the-board spending cuts to take effect on Jan. 1, 2013.  The "Fiscal Cliff" is the idea that the increased taxes and reduced spending would pull too much money out of an economy that is recovering from a recession and could create a severe economic depression. One of the possible benefits of the "Fiscal Cliff" is that, if the economy doesn't completely collapse, it will result in a substantially smaller deficit.
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