US government is still confiscating private gold

JoelKatz

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Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.

Quote from: ?? on ??

Innocent until presumed guilty? Cheesy

This was a civil seizure. The standard is just preponderance of the evidence -- which side makes the stronger case.

If I claim you stole my television and you say you bought it from a guy on the street who swears I sold it to him, the court will just decide which side is more likely to be correct. If there was a higher standard, then the case would just hinge on who went to court first or who had physical possession of the television. Neither of those options make any sense.

dotcom

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Quote from: Severian on September 08, 2012, 01:29:25 AM

The actual lessons of this story are to 1. never let the government know you're holding metals and 2. the government will always win on its own turf: the courts.

Don't know the details of this particular story, but I couldn't agree with this statement more

hashman

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Sadly this is a drop in the bucket for asset forfeiture in our police state.

benjamindees

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Quote

"The Mint meticulously tracked the '33 Double Eagles, and the records show that no such transaction occurred," U.S. District Judge Legrome Davis Jr. wrote in his decision. "What's more, this absence of a paper trail speaks to criminal intent. If whoever took or exchanged the coins thought he was doing no wrong, we would expect to see some sort of documentation reflecting the transaction, especially considering how carefully and methodically the Mint accounted for the '33 Double Eagles."

More importantly, what does this precedent have to do with Yamashita's Gold and the recently confiscated gold-backed Treasury bonds?

myrkul

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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: fcmatt on September 08, 2012, 02:20:17 AM

Quote from: myrkul on September 08, 2012, 02:13:14 AM

Quote from: fcmatt on September 08, 2012, 02:07:00 AM

With this decision the heavy hitters in the coin world now worry about owning some coins that could
potentially be reclaimed by the govt one day if they so desire.

Sell 'em offshore and buy an ingot.

You might as well tell a collector to trade his prized coin for a beanie baby.... Unless of course the ingot is from san fran and the year and mark is 1853 or what have you :-)

Sentimental value on a hunk of metal....

I guess I'll never understand some people. Excuse me while I dust my D&D minis. Wink

Severian

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Quote from: fcmatt on September 08, 2012, 02:29:47 AM

I see what you meant by fdr now. I misunderstood. But keep in mind they are not chasing down 33 eagles.... Just double eagles which should not have been released according to the govt due to the timing of things. So a lack of records appears to be the core problem.. Not really the laws. 33 eagles have proof but not the doubles.

The government claim isn't backed up by the history books. These were legal coins until December, 1933 when Treasury ordered Americans to turn in their gold in exchange for pretty green paper. It's not lack of records that's the problem. It's the government not being able to prove something but seizing contested property anyway.

And you're right, they do seem to have a weird fixation for these particular coins.

fcmatt

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Quote from: Severian on September 08, 2012, 02:21:04 AM

Quote from: fcmatt on September 08, 2012, 02:07:00 AM

But I disagree it was the laws from 1933 driving this. It is something they have been chasing since the
1940s easy when it comes to these 33s. They really really dislike them being out there. The rest they
seem not to care about.

The 1940's-onward chase of these coins is based on the laws that came out of the FDR era. There aren't any other orders to base their cases on.

Quote from: fcmatt on September 08, 2012, 02:07:00 AM

With this decision the heavy hitters in the coin world now worry about owning some coins that could
potentially be reclaimed by the govt one day if they so desire.

Which brings us back to why we're on this board. : )

I see what you meant by fdr now. I misunderstood. But keep in mind they are not chasing down 33 eagles.... Just double eagles which should not have been released according to the govt due to the timing of things. So a lack of records appears to be the core problem.. Not really the laws. 33 eagles have proof but not the doubles.

Severian

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Quote from: fcmatt on September 08, 2012, 02:07:00 AM

But I disagree it was the laws from 1933 driving this. It is something they have been chasing since the
1940s easy when it comes to these 33s. They really really dislike them being out there. The rest they
seem not to care about.

The 1940's-onward chase of these coins is based on the laws that came out of the FDR era. There aren't any other orders to base their cases on.

Quote from: fcmatt on September 08, 2012, 02:07:00 AM

With this decision the heavy hitters in the coin world now worry about owning some coins that could
potentially be reclaimed by the govt one day if they so desire.

Which brings us back to why we're on this board. : )

fcmatt

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Quote from: myrkul on September 08, 2012, 02:13:14 AM

Quote from: fcmatt on September 08, 2012, 02:07:00 AM

With this decision the heavy hitters in the coin world now worry about owning some coins that could
potentially be reclaimed by the govt one day if they so desire.

Sell 'em offshore and buy an ingot.

You might as well tell a collector to trade his prized coin for a beanie baby.... Unless of course the ingot is from san fran and the year and mark is 1853 or what have you :-)

myrkul

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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: fcmatt on September 08, 2012, 02:07:00 AM

With this decision the heavy hitters in the coin world now worry about owning some coins that could
potentially be reclaimed by the govt one day if they so desire.

Sell 'em offshore and buy an ingot.

fcmatt

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Activity: 2072

Merit: 1001

Quote from: Severian on September 08, 2012, 01:58:35 AM

Quote from: fcmatt on September 08, 2012, 01:54:20 AM

Everyone is welcome to their own opinion on this subject as it appears there is nothing that
will sway everyone in one direction.

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

This era fascinates me as I perceive it as the time when the Banking interests were consolidating their hold on the American economy. That the State is still taking
people's metal based on an authoritarian law from 1933 shows that much of that hold still continues today.

What is odd is that the govt has a thing for these 33s yet allow other coins that should have never
been released from the mint trade freely among the collecting community. Patterns, 1913 lib nickels,
1804 silver dollars, etc...

But even during that time frame they allowed collector gold coins to be retained by the owners of the time.
So that would be older gold coins from 17xx-18xx time frame as well as earlier non-US pieces.

But I disagree it was the laws from 1933 driving this. It is something they have been chasing since the
1940s easy when it comes to these 33s. They really really dislike them being out there. The rest they
seem not to care about.

With this decision the heavy hitters in the coin world now worry about owning some coins that could
potentially be reclaimed by the govt one day if they so desire.

Severian

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Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Quote from: fcmatt on September 08, 2012, 01:54:20 AM

Everyone is welcome to their own opinion on this subject as it appears there is nothing that
will sway everyone in one direction.

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

This era fascinates me as I perceive it as the time when the Banking interests were consolidating their hold on the American economy. That the State is still taking
people's metal based on an authoritarian law from 1933 shows that much of that hold still continues today.

fcmatt

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Merit: 1001

Quote from: Severian on September 08, 2012, 01:49:17 AM

Quote from: fcmatt on September 08, 2012, 01:42:08 AM

as a coin collector i know this story pretty well.

I defer to your knowledge but I do have a question.

The mint cashier was legally allowed to disburse these coins until December, 1993, yes?

March 4th to April 5th is one expert's opinion of the possible window for it to have taken place.
It is a very interesting time frame. I refer you to this article:

http://www.coinweek.com/featured-news/coin-rarities-related-topics-the-fate-of-ten-switt-langbord-1933-double-eagles-20-gold-coins/

Everyone is welcome to their own opinion on this subject as it appears there is nothing that
will sway everyone in one direction.

Severian

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Quote from: fcmatt on September 08, 2012, 01:42:08 AM

as a coin collector i know this story pretty well.

I defer to your knowledge but I do have a question.

The mint cashier was legally allowed to disburse these coins until December, 1993, yes?

fcmatt

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as a coin collector i know this story pretty well.

to create a title that is as inflammatory as the one you did shows that you are either
ignorant of the coin's history or just wanted to troll a bit to see who would bite.

the govt's case was basically that every one of these coins should have been melted
and never released from the mint.

the langborns did not make a good enough case on how Mr Switt came into possession of them.
Switt transferred them to the Langborns way back then. Switt was a jeweler.

Switt more then likely had a buddy in the alcoholic mint worker by the name of McCann. Or a bribe
to McCann to give older double eagles for the 33s.

Sooo in the end the govt won. They have been actively going after these 33s for decades.
Yes.. neither party had rock solid proof one way or another.. but a jury decided for the govt and
I am sure the Langborns will appeal.

Severian

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Quote from: myrkul on September 08, 2012, 01:38:21 AM

Well, who would you believe?

"We can prove he stole them, but they went missing about the time he quit."

or

"I can't prove I didn't steal them, but I bought them about the time they say I stole them."

It's just my own bias, but I never believe a government unless it can document things with irrefutable proof.

As all the parties involved in the original transaction are dead and the government couldn't prove its case beyond the shadow of a doubt, it seems like old fashioned theft-by-decree was committed on private parties by the State.

Severian

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Innocent until presumed guilty? Cheesy

Modern jurisprudence looks a little like the old Inquisition legal theory. : )

myrkul

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: myrkul on September 08, 2012, 01:26:20 AM

Quote from: Severian on September 08, 2012, 01:14:20 AM

Quote from: myrkul on September 08, 2012, 01:10:20 AM

It's not confiscation if you're reclaiming stolen property.

Not saying they wouldn't do it, just that this is not one of those instances.

The larger point is that the claim for either side wasn't proven clearly, yet the government seized it anyway.

Well, someone says you stole something, you probably should be able to prove you didn't.

Innocent until presumed guilty? Cheesy

Well, who would you believe?

"We can prove he stole them, but they went missing about the time he quit."

or

"I can't prove I didn't steal them, but I bought them about the time they say I stole them."

myrkul

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Quote from: Severian on September 08, 2012, 01:29:25 AM

Quote from: myrkul on September 08, 2012, 01:26:20 AM

Well, someone says you stole something, you probably should be able to prove you didn't.

The family didn't believe it stolen. That's why they brought the coins to the attention of the Feds themselves.

The actual lessons of this story are to 1. never let the government know you're holding metals and 2. the government will always win on its own turf: the courts.

Now those, I agree with.

Severian

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Quote from: myrkul on September 08, 2012, 01:26:20 AM

Well, someone says you stole something, you probably should be able to prove you didn't.

The family didn't believe it stolen. That's why they brought the coins to the attention of the Feds themselves.

The actual lessons of this story are to 1. never let the government know you're holding metals and 2. the government will always win on its own turf: the courts.

Topic: US government is still confiscating private gold (Read 1845 times)