I haven't paid any tax in over 10 years...
Please, share your wisdom.
Topic: USD is backed by the fact that IRS only accepts it for taxes... - page 2. (Read 3536 times)
November 30, 2012, 08:34:32 PM
Please, share your wisdom.
November 30, 2012, 08:28:22 PM
USD is not backed by taxation laws..
its backed by minimum wage laws. employee's with employee contracts need to be paid in native FIAT .. so the dollar is backed by labour time.
secondly there are many cases where the IRS has accepted gold and silver as forms of payment. google has the answer.
its backed by minimum wage laws. employee's with employee contracts need to be paid in native FIAT .. so the dollar is backed by labour time.
secondly there are many cases where the IRS has accepted gold and silver as forms of payment. google has the answer.
November 30, 2012, 07:50:11 PM
"What's so great about your money?"
"It's easy for powerful people to watch what we do with it and they take what they want."
"It's easy for powerful people to watch what we do with it and they take what they want."
November 30, 2012, 07:30:19 PM
if the government financed itself completely through printing (entirely possible) then it would become immediately clear what's going on.
Then maybe the amount of the government income that comes from printing is far greater than the one coming from taxes. I wonder if there's a way to calculate the percentage in some countries: The amount of money printed X the amount of tax collected in any fiscal year. I'm sure there's a pattern.
Income tax allows allows politicians to play favorites with the tax code.
Very clever. Less taxes! (more printing)
November 30, 2012, 07:06:44 PM
The different between IRS and any other merchant is the use of force. While you have the choice of paying any other merchant in their prefered currency, you are forced to pay IRS in their choice of currency.
You actually don't have the choice of paying any other merchant in YOUR preferred currency. You have to pay it in THEIR preferred currency, or not get the service at all. Same as with IRS.
I could argue that the main difference between government and merchants is who has the bigger guns. While a merchant can't stick you in jail, if they don't like your currency, they can kick you out of a hotel or your apartment, refuse to sell you food, and refuse to sell you lifesaving medicine, which could all result in punishments similar to what a government can dole out.
But unlike government they don't have any incentive to refuse payment in other currencies as long as the payment minus the transaction costs exceed the value of what they're selling, because they don't have a monopoly to protect.So, bigger guns, bigger say in what everyone needs to pay. And, similarly, if your merchant only accepts euros while you only have dollars, you can always just exchange your dollars for euros, just as you can always just exchange your bitcoin for dollars when paying the IRS. Again, really nothing special here except for the personal preference of the biggest merchant on the block.
Yes, you could do all your daily businesses in gold, and only buy dollars at tax day. But then you will suffer some transaction costs. The fact that you absolutely need dollars at tax day creates artificial costs for all alternative currencies. That's the reason there is still some demand even for hyperinflationary currencies. If you don't contribute to the demand at all you will face the risk of jail time. November 30, 2012, 04:46:59 PM
The US Dollar is legal tender, which means that you are legally required to accept it for the repayment of debt. Failure to accept it results in a breach of contract. This also adds some "intrinsic" value to the US dollar.
Note: This does mean you are legally required to accept it as payment for goods or services, including credit extended for goods or services.
Note: This does mean you are legally required to accept it as payment for goods or services, including credit extended for goods or services.
November 30, 2012, 12:22:07 PM
The only reason the IRS collects money is for the government to spend it on other stuff.
Actually, income tax just barely pays for the interest on the debt. Most of government spending comes from borrowing and printing.
Details, details...
November 30, 2012, 12:21:01 PM
The different between IRS and any other merchant is the use of force. While you have the choice of paying any other merchant in their prefered currency, you are forced to pay IRS in their choice of currency.
You actually don't have the choice of paying any other merchant in YOUR preferred currency. You have to pay it in THEIR preferred currency, or not get the service at all. Same as with IRS.
Dollars do not have any inherent properties that make them good as money, but their government enforced "not going to jail"-properties are valueable to most people. So just like people are prepared to pay for the "get out of jail free"-card in monopoly, they are prepared to use dollars for regular transactions because they know they will face the ultimate choice of paying dollars to IRS or go to jail.
I could argue that the main difference between government and merchants is who has the bigger guns. While a merchant can't stick you in jail, if they don't like your currency, they can kick you out of a hotel or your apartment, refuse to sell you food, and refuse to sell you lifesaving medicine, which could all result in punishments similar to what a government can dole out. So, bigger guns, bigger say in what everyone needs to pay. And, similarly, if your merchant only accepts euros while you only have dollars, you can always just exchange your dollars for euros, just as you can always just exchange your bitcoin for dollars when paying the IRS. Again, really nothing special here except for the personal preference of the biggest merchant on the block.
November 30, 2012, 12:19:18 PM
Actually, income tax just barely pays for the interest on the debt. Most of government spending comes from borrowing and printing.
US Spending is out of control but that is an obviously false statement. In 2012 interest on the debt is~$350 billion. Income taxes is ~$1,700 billion. If you add in social security (which is just another tax IMHO) it is more like $2,600 billion.
To the OP, the value of a fiat currency comes from (among other things) where it is accepted. The IRS is no different in that respect that Bass Pro shop. Both accept USD and those both add value to USD. However the IRS is pretty huge. It "accepts" > $2.0 trillion a year. When you consider US GDP (which is ~100% USD transactions) is $15.0 trillion the IRS "accepting" USD is a pretty significant source of demand. Downstream since the US govt only accepts payments in USD then any spending by the US Govt will also only be in USD and any entity which looks to engage in commerce with the federal govt will be creating demand (forced or otherwise) for the currency. So while the IRS may not be special it certainly is large.
TL/DR saying the IRS isn't special would be like someone on news that Amazon started accepting Bitcoins saying "Amazon isn't special they are just a merchant like any other".
November 30, 2012, 12:13:37 PM
USD is backed by lots of things. Stability, easy transfer, and availability come to mind. The IRS is pretty low on that list.
Now I highly doubt the IRS would switch to a different currency. The whole govt relies on being able to have control over USD. If the USD lost its dominance, the whole govt would collapse - including the IRS.
Now I highly doubt the IRS would switch to a different currency. The whole govt relies on being able to have control over USD. If the USD lost its dominance, the whole govt would collapse - including the IRS.
November 30, 2012, 11:49:48 AM
The only reason the IRS collects money is for the government to spend it on other stuff.
Actually, income tax just barely pays for the interest on the debt. Most of government spending comes from borrowing and printing.
The reason that income tax exists is maintain the ruse - if the government financed itself completely through printing (entirely possible) then it would become immediately clear what's going on. Income tax allows allows politicians to play favorites with the tax code.
November 30, 2012, 11:46:42 AM
I'm sure I'm not the first to have thought of this, but...:
I'm still hearing arguments flying around how,
"Bitcoin isn't backed by anything but people collectively believing is it worth something,"
"Well, USD isn't backed by anything either, and only has value because people believe it does, too"
with the usual final retort of, "USD has value/is backed because it is the only way to pay the IRS taxes."
Well, what makes the IRS any different from any other merchant that only accepts specific currencies? The only reason the IRS collects money is for the government to spend it on other stuff. It doesn't do it to prop up the currency. And the only reason the government directs the IRS to collect USD is because the government, like the rest of us, also believes USD has value. There is nothing to prop up USD's worth other than our collective belief, and if the USD value drops significantly, or even becomes worthless, you can bet that the government (and military, and everyone else) will want something else instead, and will direct the IRS to start collecting something else instead of USD. So, really, saying "But you can pay taxes with it!" is a fallacy that assumes the IRS is some separate body in charge of determining currency value, instead of just another merchant/business collecting whatever value it believes in, with the same goal of being able to spend it later.
The difference between IRS and any other merchant is the use of force. While you have the choice of paying any other merchant in their prefered currency, you are forced to pay IRS in their choice of currency. That is the essence of the "backed by taxation"-argument. It's an answer to why inferior fiat money is being used when there are superior alternatives. Dollars do not have any inherent properties that make them good as money, but their government enforced "not going to jail"-properties are valueable to most people. So just like people are prepared to pay for the "get out of jail free"-card in monopoly, they are prepared to use dollars for regular transactions because they know they will face the ultimate choice of paying dollars to IRS or go to jail. I'm still hearing arguments flying around how,
"Bitcoin isn't backed by anything but people collectively believing is it worth something,"
"Well, USD isn't backed by anything either, and only has value because people believe it does, too"
with the usual final retort of, "USD has value/is backed because it is the only way to pay the IRS taxes."
Well, what makes the IRS any different from any other merchant that only accepts specific currencies? The only reason the IRS collects money is for the government to spend it on other stuff. It doesn't do it to prop up the currency. And the only reason the government directs the IRS to collect USD is because the government, like the rest of us, also believes USD has value. There is nothing to prop up USD's worth other than our collective belief, and if the USD value drops significantly, or even becomes worthless, you can bet that the government (and military, and everyone else) will want something else instead, and will direct the IRS to start collecting something else instead of USD. So, really, saying "But you can pay taxes with it!" is a fallacy that assumes the IRS is some separate body in charge of determining currency value, instead of just another merchant/business collecting whatever value it believes in, with the same goal of being able to spend it later.
November 30, 2012, 11:35:15 AM
I always thought this was a dumb thing to say about what backs the USD. Only people who are so thoroughly enthralled with paying tax would see it as a benefit. The Fed prints money endlessly and the great part is you can pay it back to them in taxes. Oh, yippee. Of course they only take their own Mickey Mouse bucks for tax. Same with every other country. I'm fairly sure that's not the reason I ever accepted any USD from anyone.
Bitcoin are backed by the knowledge that the IRS won't even know you have any. Sounds much preferable to me. Especially considering I'm neither American nor live in the US. I haven't paid any tax in over 10 years anyway so it's a perfect fit.
Bitcoin are backed by the knowledge that the IRS won't even know you have any. Sounds much preferable to me. Especially considering I'm neither American nor live in the US. I haven't paid any tax in over 10 years anyway so it's a perfect fit.
November 30, 2012, 11:27:28 AM
I'm sure I'm not the first to have thought of this, but...:
I'm still hearing arguments flying around how,
"Bitcoin isn't backed by anything but people collectively believing is it worth something,"
"Well, USD isn't backed by anything either, and only has value because people believe it does, too"
with the usual final retort of, "USD has value/is backed because it is the only way to pay the IRS taxes."
Well, what makes the IRS any different from any other merchant that only accepts specific currencies? The only reason the IRS collects money is for the government to spend it on other stuff. It doesn't do it to prop up the currency. And the only reason the government directs the IRS to collect USD is because the government, like the rest of us, also believes USD has value. There is nothing to prop up USD's worth other than our collective belief, and if the USD value drops significantly, or even becomes worthless, you can bet that the government (and military, and everyone else) will want something else instead, and will direct the IRS to start collecting something else instead of USD. So, really, saying "But you can pay taxes with it!" is a fallacy that assumes the IRS is some separate body in charge of determining currency value, instead of just another merchant/business collecting whatever value it believes in, with the same goal of being able to spend it later.
I'm still hearing arguments flying around how,
"Bitcoin isn't backed by anything but people collectively believing is it worth something,"
"Well, USD isn't backed by anything either, and only has value because people believe it does, too"
with the usual final retort of, "USD has value/is backed because it is the only way to pay the IRS taxes."
Well, what makes the IRS any different from any other merchant that only accepts specific currencies? The only reason the IRS collects money is for the government to spend it on other stuff. It doesn't do it to prop up the currency. And the only reason the government directs the IRS to collect USD is because the government, like the rest of us, also believes USD has value. There is nothing to prop up USD's worth other than our collective belief, and if the USD value drops significantly, or even becomes worthless, you can bet that the government (and military, and everyone else) will want something else instead, and will direct the IRS to start collecting something else instead of USD. So, really, saying "But you can pay taxes with it!" is a fallacy that assumes the IRS is some separate body in charge of determining currency value, instead of just another merchant/business collecting whatever value it believes in, with the same goal of being able to spend it later.
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