Topic: User friendly client initiative (Read 8483 times)
Seems like a cool client, has many ideas I have
I'm not sure, but this is probably vulnerable to social engineering attacks.
"Hi, it's me, [insert your best friend's name] - please send me 2BTC by clicking this link: [link with my BTC addy embedded]"
Adding a confirmation dialog before actually sending solves that... But I do agree that browser<->bitcoin client communication could open it up to new security holes, or at least add new attack surface."Hi, it's me, [insert your best friend's name] - please send me 2BTC by clicking this link: [link with my BTC addy embedded]"
If the user wants some money from a friend he can click "request payment" which will send an e-mail to the friend with an URI that can be clicked. The friend will click the link which will open up his client with a confirmation box of sending amount X to the user (just the user's name, not the bitcoin address is presented).
I'm not sure, but this is probably vulnerable to social engineering attacks.
"Hi, it's me, [insert your best friend's name] - please send me 2BTC by clicking this link: [link with my BTC addy embedded]"
Just make it "feel" like the old system. Instead of labeling it as "confirmed/unconfirmed," pretend that the money is "transferring." Except whereas banks take 3 days to transfer, for this have it pretend that it's taking a few minutes to an hour to transfer. So, yeah, either a progress bar, or just text reading "transfer in progress" will be enough. We know that's not what's really happening, but people prefer what they already understand.
My business marketing class had an excellent example. The BlackBerry was the first mobile device that did e-mail over the cell network. However, when it came out, most people had no idea what e-mail was. So, instead of marketing itself as a cool, techie, futuristic device, BlackBerry was marketed as a pager that lets you send text. That's what it sort of is, even though we really know it's not. That's also why BlackBerry was understood, adopted, and succeeded. Contrary to that example is the Tivo, which SHOULD'VE been marketed as a digital VCR, and likely should've had features similar to one, at least at first, but it was instead marketed as a futuristic techie device that did all sorts of things people didn't understand ("Time-Shifting?" wtf is that???). In te end, Tivo, despite being a HEAVILLY marketed and recognized name, ended up bombing. So, for any feature you think may be confusing, just lie and make it "feel" like it's something else that we've always used.
p.s. that class cost me $3,200, being in one of the top universities, but I'll gladly share this nugget of knowledge for free
Also, if this comes out, and works well, I'll gladly donate a bitcoin or few.
My business marketing class had an excellent example. The BlackBerry was the first mobile device that did e-mail over the cell network. However, when it came out, most people had no idea what e-mail was. So, instead of marketing itself as a cool, techie, futuristic device, BlackBerry was marketed as a pager that lets you send text. That's what it sort of is, even though we really know it's not. That's also why BlackBerry was understood, adopted, and succeeded. Contrary to that example is the Tivo, which SHOULD'VE been marketed as a digital VCR, and likely should've had features similar to one, at least at first, but it was instead marketed as a futuristic techie device that did all sorts of things people didn't understand ("Time-Shifting?" wtf is that???). In te end, Tivo, despite being a HEAVILLY marketed and recognized name, ended up bombing. So, for any feature you think may be confusing, just lie and make it "feel" like it's something else that we've always used.
p.s. that class cost me $3,200, being in one of the top universities, but I'll gladly share this nugget of knowledge for free
Also, if this comes out, and works well, I'll gladly donate a bitcoin or few.
Thanks for the input, very good points.
The only other thing from a functionality standpoint, from a complete beginner's viewpoint, is how to "buy" bitcoins.
Yes, I agree, this is really important. I have thought about contacting the some of the exchanges once the client is up and running, for some sort of cooperation. Would be nice if the user could simply transfer money to a bank account and then have it appear as bitcoins in the client (without having to open an account, put in a buy order etc.).
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Regarding the bones, have you heard of the Bitcoinsharp project http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinsharp/? It is a direct port of BitcoinJ but is still in early alpha.
Yes, I did see this and I will probably use it.
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If you would like some more spare hours in terms of development, testing, user documentation to help speed along the development, I would like to volunteer.
Thanks a lot! I will hopefully get something up and running in July/August when I have some more time to put in. Once I have a first version I'm sure that there are lots of things that you can help out with.
That's fine. But, I will take open over easy any day of the week.
I agree, but unfortunately more than 80% of the people would pay for easy, rather than get open for free (in the desktop O.S. market).
Thanks, DH! I think this is a worthy project and your initial skins look great. Also, I think there is a lot of great feedback on here so far. The only other thing from a functionality standpoint, from a complete beginner's viewpoint, is how to "buy" bitcoins. Maybe a link to an exchange or a couple of exchanges would be helpful.
Regarding the bones, have you heard of the Bitcoinsharp project http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinsharp/? It is a direct port of BitcoinJ but is still in early alpha.
If you would like some more spare hours in terms of development, testing, user documentation to help speed along the development, I would like to volunteer.
Again, thanks for the start and I think this could be a big help for bitcoin evangelism.
Regarding the bones, have you heard of the Bitcoinsharp project http://code.google.com/p/bitcoinsharp/? It is a direct port of BitcoinJ but is still in early alpha.
If you would like some more spare hours in terms of development, testing, user documentation to help speed along the development, I would like to volunteer.
Again, thanks for the start and I think this could be a big help for bitcoin evangelism.
I think at this stage of the bitcoin game, any client would have to be open source. 
Thanks chodpaba.
Regarding D.H.'s client - I was also thinking about direct integration with Dropbox but with stories like this one about lapses of security, I'm not sure it's such a good idea (even with encrypted wallet - why expose yourself to attacks if you don't have to). My current thinking is to simply let the user specify a list of backup paths that the wallets will be automatically replicated to. I haven't figured out how to make the UI 'mom-friendly' but it would then let the users pick the backup service of their choice (I do like Crashplan btw). Not forcing everyone's eggs into the same basket is probably a good idea.
I really do like the suggestion of displaying insufficiently verified transactions as 'in progress' - I think that works even better than my iconic representation of the state. It would also help communicate to the user why there is a fee on spending these young transactions.
Regarding D.H.'s client - I was also thinking about direct integration with Dropbox but with stories like this one about lapses of security, I'm not sure it's such a good idea (even with encrypted wallet - why expose yourself to attacks if you don't have to). My current thinking is to simply let the user specify a list of backup paths that the wallets will be automatically replicated to. I haven't figured out how to make the UI 'mom-friendly' but it would then let the users pick the backup service of their choice (I do like Crashplan btw). Not forcing everyone's eggs into the same basket is probably a good idea.
I really do like the suggestion of displaying insufficiently verified transactions as 'in progress' - I think that works even better than my iconic representation of the state. It would also help communicate to the user why there is a fee on spending these young transactions.
So we're Microsoft now? 
We're OSS fans - we'll use it when it makes sense for business. AllBitcoin subscribes to the 'do no evil' philosophy. We want to see many competing clients in the Bitcoin ecosystem because we believe that is the only way the system can be successful.
Let's not bicker over this - I think we have the right to license our code as we like and you have the right to not use it if you disagree with our decision. We both agree that Bitcoin is awesome and that's what counts here.
We're OSS fans - we'll use it when it makes sense for business. AllBitcoin subscribes to the 'do no evil' philosophy. We want to see many competing clients in the Bitcoin ecosystem because we believe that is the only way the system can be successful.
Let's not bicker over this - I think we have the right to license our code as we like and you have the right to not use it if you disagree with our decision. We both agree that Bitcoin is awesome and that's what counts here.
An exploit that will be so much more effective once you have 'established trust'.
I guess it's just like with those sneaky folks over at Bank of America - now that they have my trust they'll probably be running off with my savings real soon...
Seriously though, as I have pointed out in the other thread, OSS does not imply trust. The advantage of open source in this context is that in case of a breach of trust, another group can take over the project. However that won't protect your wallets. AllBitcoin was set up because we believe in Bitcoin's potential. We think it's a game changer. Rather than trying to make a quick buck mining or day trading, we want to help build the infrastructure to fully realize this potential. As we do, I believe we will earn people's trust and that trust will be more valuable than any scam you may suspect us of right now. You are certainly right to be suspicious - we have not earned it yet. I do hope that doesn't prevent us from discussing the UI design of the next wave of Bitcoin clients.
So as to not hijack D.H.'s thread anymore than I already have, I would really appreciate if we could take this discussion elsewhere.
Hey guys, I already made a post about this in the newbie forum earlier but I feel it's relevant to your efforts - http://allbitcoin.com
I have gone a step further in simplifying the UI, though our ideas are quite similar. Check out the screenshots and let me know what you think!
I have gone a step further in simplifying the UI, though our ideas are quite similar. Check out the screenshots and let me know what you think!
All good ideas. The thing that is a bit tricky is the confirmations I think. People are used to a world where the money is in their account or it is not, where there is nothing in between, but with Bitcoins it's different. There is really no reason that you have to wait for 6 confirmations if the money came from someone you know so it seems unnecessary to let people wait for an hour before letting them spend their money. I was thinking of displaying a yellow progressbar until it reaches 6 confirmations and then change to a green "confirmed", but I'm really not sure about this yet. Should people be able to spend their money while it is "in progress"? Will that be confusing? Suggestions are welcome.
Just make it "feel" like the old system. Instead of labeling it as "confirmed/unconfirmed," pretend that the money is "transferring." Except whereas banks take 3 days to transfer, for this have it pretend that it's taking a few minutes to an hour to transfer. So, yeah, either a progress bar, or just text reading "transfer in progress" will be enough. We know that's not what's really happening, but people prefer what they already understand.
My business marketing class had an excellent example. The BlackBerry was the first mobile device that did e-mail over the cell network. However, when it came out, most people had no idea what e-mail was. So, instead of marketing itself as a cool, techie, futuristic device, BlackBerry was marketed as a pager that lets you send text. That's what it sort of is, even though we really know it's not. That's also why BlackBerry was understood, adopted, and succeeded. Contrary to that example is the Tivo, which SHOULD'VE been marketed as a digital VCR, and likely should've had features similar to one, at least at first, but it was instead marketed as a futuristic techie device that did all sorts of things people didn't understand ("Time-Shifting?" wtf is that???). In te end, Tivo, despite being a HEAVILLY marketed and recognized name, ended up bombing. So, for any feature you think may be confusing, just lie and make it "feel" like it's something else that we've always used.
p.s. that class cost me $3,200, being in one of the top universities, but I'll gladly share this nugget of knowledge for free
Also, if this comes out, and works well, I'll gladly donate a bitcoin or few.
Yes, that's right.
Looks excellent and REALLY looking forward to this.
Just two additions please: Add a "notes" or "category" column next to transactions (so you can remember whether that was for paying a bill, buying a rare 5830, or whatever), and allow sorting by date, by contact, and by notes. This will make it much easier to quickly find out how much we made from various pools, trading, or whatever, instead of having to run a separate spreadsheet.
Just two additions please: Add a "notes" or "category" column next to transactions (so you can remember whether that was for paying a bill, buying a rare 5830, or whatever), and allow sorting by date, by contact, and by notes. This will make it much easier to quickly find out how much we made from various pools, trading, or whatever, instead of having to run a separate spreadsheet.
Good idea!
Also, I realize I am probably in a minority here, but I think (optionally) allowing displays in USD is a GREAT idea. It gets really complicated, but it would help my wife figure out Bitcoin! International travelers like many of the readers here have a knack for different currencies, but here in the Midwest USA, if you aren't talking dollars, you may as well be talking kilometers. I'd get the glazed over look when I say "I transferred 2 Bitcoins".. as if people have to convert it in their heads every time.
I would REALLY like a client that operates in dollars. If I want to send the $20 equivalent in Bitcoins to someone, I want to type in $20. And I want that transaction logged in my register as a $20 transaction (forever), so that when I look back on it in a year, I don't think "why did I transfer $423 to that guy?" No, it was "$20".
I would REALLY like a client that operates in dollars. If I want to send the $20 equivalent in Bitcoins to someone, I want to type in $20. And I want that transaction logged in my register as a $20 transaction (forever), so that when I look back on it in a year, I don't think "why did I transfer $423 to that guy?" No, it was "$20".
I don't think that I will go as far as displaying dollars as the main unit. Hell, I'm from Sweden, so it would be Kronor here, not dollars. We want to create an international currency where people can easily compare prices from all over the world, don't we? I think that that is one of the beauties of Bitcoin.
My current thought is to display Bitcoins but to have the option of displaying the equivalent in another currency somewhat smaller next to it. Your last part makes sense though, in the log this would then be the equivalent at the time of the transaction.
A few suggestions:
- Consider whether you need date+time, or just date. Think about your check register in your checkbook. Do you write the time? Maybe the month and day is sufficient (why waste space on the year or the time). Maybe this is an option.
- Why not keep a running balance? Think about check registers or home banking sites, and how those look. They have a column for the transaction amount, and then a column for the running total.
- Do you really care about confirmations? I'd get rid of that column. Indicate whether it's confirmed, based on color or font boldness or gray-ness.
- Allow the user to mouse over, or click on, a transaction to get the details. Here's where you can put all the information that I suggest hiding, including the whole date and time, the Bitcoin Address, the confirmation count, maybe a memo field, etc.
- Consider whether you need date+time, or just date. Think about your check register in your checkbook. Do you write the time? Maybe the month and day is sufficient (why waste space on the year or the time). Maybe this is an option.
- Why not keep a running balance? Think about check registers or home banking sites, and how those look. They have a column for the transaction amount, and then a column for the running total.
- Do you really care about confirmations? I'd get rid of that column. Indicate whether it's confirmed, based on color or font boldness or gray-ness.
- Allow the user to mouse over, or click on, a transaction to get the details. Here's where you can put all the information that I suggest hiding, including the whole date and time, the Bitcoin Address, the confirmation count, maybe a memo field, etc.
All good ideas. The thing that is a bit tricky is the confirmations I think. People are used to a world where the money is in their account or it is not, where there is nothing in between, but with Bitcoins it's different. There is really no reason that you have to wait for 6 confirmations if the money came from someone you know so it seems unnecessary to let people wait for an hour before letting them spend their money. I was thinking of displaying a yellow progressbar until it reaches 6 confirmations and then change to a green "confirmed", but I'm really not sure about this yet. Should people be able to spend their money while it is "in progress"? Will that be confusing? Suggestions are welcome.
Seems like this is about the only C# related topic for clients 
I would love to help, I'm the lead developer for a WPF based framework (http://www.vidyano.com)
I would love to help, I'm the lead developer for a WPF based framework (http://www.vidyano.com)
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