Using mouse input for extra entropy - page 2.

Abdussamad

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Quote from: bitmover on August 19, 2019, 09:43:38 PM

There are wallets doing that already.
Like this one

bitcoin paper wallet

You move your mouse until you make the necessary entropy. You can use your keyboard as well with your mouse movements. After that, your private key is generated.

However, I read somewhere that humans are not good sources of entropy.... so maybe that is not a good idea. We problably keep moving the mouse in some crazy pattern.

This site isn't safe. Please remove your active link to it. You don't want to help it rank better in the search engine results pages!

ABCbits

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Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on August 21, 2019, 02:00:19 AM

A compromised computer producing not truly random numbers is unlikely to produce a collusion after two 'random' events. They will rather produce random numbers in a smaller space. The output will appear random without testing, but someone with knowledge of the specific space numbers will be generated will be able to generate a collusion with fairly low effort.

The movement of the mouse is intended to counter the above risk in adding user specific random to create a larger space of possible private keys even if the computer's random function is compromised.

If computer/OS random function (such as /dev/random) is compromised, then that means your computer most likely is compromised as well since you need superuser access to compromise it.
It's different case if there's malicious update by OS provider or OS's random function had vulnerability to begin with.

Besides, good entropy won't help if the output is biased.

PrimeNumber7

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Quote from: LoyceV on August 20, 2019, 11:07:49 AM

Quote

However, I read somewhere that humans are not good sources of entropy.... so maybe that is not a good idea. We problably keep moving the mouse in some crazy pattern.

I always assumed this isn't the only source of entropy they use, but it's added to some other random generator in the computer. I've just tested it on https://www.bitaddress.org: without using my mouse (Tab many times to be able to type in the entry field), I filled it by holding the A-button. After that, I did the same again. As expected, this produced 2 different private keys.

I believe the idea is to address the risk of having flawed RNG because of the computer being compromised and not producing truly random numbers when directed.

A compromised computer producing not truly random numbers is unlikely to produce a collusion after two 'random' events. They will rather produce random numbers in a smaller space. The output will appear random without testing, but someone with knowledge of the specific space numbers will be generated will be able to generate a collusion with fairly low effort.

The movement of the mouse is intended to counter the above risk in adding user specific random to create a larger space of possible private keys even if the computer's random function is compromised.

khaled0111

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Quote from: LoyceV on August 20, 2019, 11:07:49 AM

I always assumed this isn't the only source of entropy they use, but it's added to some other random generator in the computer. I've just tested it on https://www.bitaddress.org: without using my mouse (Tab many times to be able to type in the entry field), I filled it by holding the A-button. After that, I did the same again. As expected, this produced 2 different private keys.

True.
You will not get the same address. Bitaddress does not use only mouse movements or keystrokes to generate entropy:

Quote from: pointbiz on January 18, 2014, 01:22:18 PM

bitaddress.org) Uses a PRNG that is seeded with a 256 byte array. That initial seed is used by the PRNG to generate 32 bytes for each address on the page based on the same 256 byte seed pool. To inject entropy into the PRNG's seed pool browser fingerprinting, time, key presses, mouse movements and hardware randomness from the OS are all xor'd together. As well the output of the PRNG is xor'd with the hardware randomness.

bitmover

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Quote from: LoyceV on August 20, 2019, 11:07:49 AM

I always assumed this isn't the only source of entropy they use, but it's added to some other random generator in the computer. I've just tested it on https://www.bitaddress.org: without using my mouse (Tab many times to be able to type in the entry field), I filled it by holding the A-button. After that, I did the same again. As expected, this produced 2 different private keys.

I agree that the website uses also another source of entropy. Otherwise, some private keys generated would eventually collide.

And different users would eventually share the same keys , as this website is very popular and new keys are generated every day

LoyceV

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Quote from: bitmover on August 19, 2019, 09:43:38 PM

You move your mouse until you make the necessary entropy. You can use your keyboard as well with your mouse movements. After that, your private key is generated.

When I do this, I move my mouse with my other hand, and criss cross my hands on the keyboards to make it less likely to use a repetitive pattern.

Quote

However, I read somewhere that humans are not good sources of entropy.... so maybe that is not a good idea. We problably keep moving the mouse in some crazy pattern.

I always assumed this isn't the only source of entropy they use, but it's added to some other random generator in the computer. I've just tested it on https://www.bitaddress.org: without using my mouse (Tab many times to be able to type in the entry field), I filled it by holding the A-button. After that, I did the same again. As expected, this produced 2 different private keys.

ABCbits

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Good idea, but AFAIK some wallet already use /dev/random and few OS-level random which generally accepted for cryptography usage.
Additionally, /dev/random have various entropy source which is more "random" than mouse.

bitmover

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There are wallets doing that already.
Like this one

https://bitcoinpaperwallet.com/bitcoinpaperwallet/generate-wallet.html

You move your mouse until you make the necessary entropy. You can use your keyboard as well with your mouse movements. After that, your private key is generated.

However, I read somewhere that humans are not good sources of entropy.... so maybe that is not a good idea. We problably keep moving the mouse in some crazy pattern.

pereira4

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Truecrypt/Veracrypt uses something interesting during the creation of encrypted volumes: it asks for the user to move his mouse in random patterns for extra entropy. Could this be beneficial when creating an HD wallet for the first time? See this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxo8xosH_TI&t=15m07s

Just an idea if someone is developing a wallet or if this could be implemented within existing wallets improving entropy.

Topic: Using mouse input for extra entropy - page 2. (Read 339 times)