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Topic: Valid uses cases for Smart Contracts, Dapps, and DAOs? - page 3. (Read 4698 times)

newbie
Activity: 22
Merit: 0
My quoted link explains that it is just an illusion of decentralization. It is by now already centralized, as evident by China+Blockstream making the decision to kill XT and Classic (i.e. a form of 51% attack control).

lol, you complain about centralization and in the same sentence complain about not getting bigger blocks. That's a contradiction because bigger blocks cause even more centralization.
Your views are invalid.

You are referring to my post at this link.

1. I didn't complain about not getting larger blocks. Someone else did and I was responding to their erroneous assertion that Blockstream is against larger blocks.

2. I am making the point that Bitcoin can't be scaled up for higher transaction rates without being centralized. Others have argued that Lightning Networks can scale up transaction rate off chain with smaller blocks, but they are mistaken.

3. Actually "larger" blocks do not force centralization if you have the correct design which I have devised, but Satohi's design can't achieve it.

A friendly warning to you. I am much more expert than you apparently realize.

You're talking out of your ass. Your coins' design doesn't change your bandwidth. Crypto does not scale no matter how much you wish it. We'll be using many different chains in the future and other workarounds. The only tokens being able to scale are the centralized ones, but that's not a crypto.
People won't be fooled.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
My quoted link explains that it is just an illusion of decentralization. It is by now already centralized, as evident by China+Blockstream making the decision to kill XT and Classic (i.e. a form of 51% attack control).

lol, you complain about centralization and in the same sentence complain about not getting bigger blocks. That's a contradiction because bigger blocks cause even more centralization.
Your views are invalid.

You are referring to my post at this link.

1. I didn't complain about not getting larger blocks. Someone else did and I was responding to their erroneous assertion that Blockstream is against larger blocks.

2. I am making the point that Bitcoin can't be scaled up for higher transaction rates without being centralized. Others have argued that Lightning Networks can scale up transaction rate off chain with smaller blocks, but they are mistaken.

3. Actually "larger" blocks do not force centralization if you have the correct design which I have devised, but Satohi's design can't achieve it.

A friendly warning to you. I am much more expert than you apparently realize.
newbie
Activity: 22
Merit: 0

My quoted link explains that it is just an illusion of decentralization. It is by now already centralized, as evident by China+Blockstream making the decision to kill XT and Classic (i.e. a form of 51% attack control).

lol, you complain about centralization and in the same sentence complain about not getting bigger blocks. That's a contradiction because bigger blocks cause even more centralization.
Your views are invalid.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
btc would be worth nothing if it wasn't decentralised. I have no idea why a distributed network should have any value at all.
If it's not decentral it doesn't have any more value than a facebook-token.

Bitcoin is not decentralized, as it is controlled by the Chinese mining cartel + Blockstream.

Yet Bitcoin has value.

Fiat money is not decentralized, yet it has value.

I would say it's still decentral but there is a trend to less decentralisation, that is true. Sadly that's an issue not many seem to care about.
It was even suggested to raise the blocksize when it was clear that would lead to even faster centralisation.

My quoted link explains that it is just an illusion of decentralization. It is by now already centralized, as evident by China+Blockstream making the decision to kill XT and Classic (i.e. a form of 51% attack control).
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
imnotback, what are you talking about?

Steemit is free to join, they give you free steem to join, and you can only make more money by posting and upvoting. oh, yeah, and they pay the girls we know, to go wild!

It is impossible to give away for free what isn't free.

It has to be a redistribution from some to others.

Yes you can offer it free as an incentive initially and take money from the speculators via debasement who are hoping some greater fools will buy the pump. But that isn't a model for anything sustainable that can sale up to millions of social networking users.

That same debasement is taking the money from the users of the system also, who use and thus hold the token.

Any more delusions?
newbie
Activity: 22
Merit: 0
btc would be worth nothing if it wasn't decentralised. I have no idea why a distributed network should have any value at all.
If it's not decentral it doesn't have any more value than a facebook-token.

Bitcoin is not decentralized, as it is controlled by the Chinese mining cartel + Blockstream.

Yet Bitcoin has value.

Fiat money is not decentralized, yet it has value.

I would say it's still decentral but there is a trend to less decentralisation, that is true. Sadly that's an issue not many seem to care about.
It was even suggested to raise the blocksize when it was clear that would lead to even faster centralisation.

But pointing at btc and saying "it is less and less decentral therefore it's ok when we're selling central tokens now" instead of saying "we need to find a solution to keep coins decentral" is just extremely dumb.
If it was like that i'd leave crypto immediately andmany others too when the word got around.

All you people seem to take this coins-game for granted. It is not. If you fuck up these very fundamental things people will stop putting money into it.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
Women's lib:

https://steemit.com/active/girlsgonesteem-nsfw

Now, thanks to blockchain tech, women make more money on average than men!

We don't need a smart contract nor Dapp, to put up some content and get paid for it.

What Steemit is trying to do is collectivize our funds amongst the entire social network, then redistribute our funds based on who receives the most valid up voting.

Sorry but people don't want to join a social network to have their funds taken from them (for all those who are average) and redistributed to those who are above average.

Dan Larimer is a smart guy but in my opinion has always been (since I first debated him in BCT in 2013 about his plan to pay every token HODLer a dividend) a socialist/collectivist in a faux Libertarian skin. And that is why in my opinion all his designs have failed to achieve greatness.

The challenge is creating a system capable of identifying what contributions are needed and
their relative worth in a way that can scale to an unbounded number of people.

A proven system for evaluating and rewarding contributions is the free market. The free
market can be viewed as a single community where everyone trades with one another and
rewards are allocated by profit and loss. The market system rewards those who provide
value to others and punishes those who consume more value than they produce. The free
market supports many different currencies and money is simply a commodity that
everyone finds easy to exchange.

Since the free market is a proven system, it is tempting to try to create a free-market system
where content consumers directly pay content producers. However, direct payment is
inefficient and not really viable for content creation and curation. The value of most
content is so low relative to the cognitive, financial, and opportunity costs associated with
making a payment that few readers choose to tip. The abundance of free alternatives means
that enforcing a ‘paywall’ will drive readers elsewhere. There have been several attempts to
implement per-article micropayments from readers to authors, but none have become
widespread.

Steem is designed to enable effective micropayments for all kinds of contribution by
changing the economic equation. Readers no longer have to decide whether or not they
want to pay someone from their own pocket, instead they can vote content up or down and
Steem will use their votes to determine individual rewards. This means that people are given
a familiar and widely used interface and no longer face the cognitive, financial, and
opportunity costs associated traditional micropayment and tipping platforms.


Edit: someone has claimed that payouts from Steemit are a deception.

My post comparing Steemit and Synereo.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
btc would be worth nothing if it wasn't decentralised. I have no idea why a distributed network should have any value at all.
If it's not decentral it doesn't have any more value than a facebook-token.

Bitcoin is not decentralized, as it is controlled by the Chinese mining cartel + Blockstream.

Yet Bitcoin has value.

Fiat money is not decentralized, yet it has value.
newbie
Activity: 22
Merit: 0

There are few blockchain use cases (mostly revolving around finance or registries or anon).

EVERYTHING not anon is better centralized...
And the market for anon is tops 5% of the global economy (mostly grey markets).

But nobody cares about the specifics...
Just show me the next bubble... with a cool whitepaper... and excellent buzzwords.

The Bitcoin bull run is going to spawn a new orgy of ICO scams.



everyone seems to forget: btc would be worth nothing if it wasn't decentralised. I have no idea why a distributed network should have any value at all.
If it's not decentral it doesn't have any more value than a facebook-token.
People are stupid.
legendary
Activity: 1588
Merit: 1000

There are few blockchain use cases (mostly revolving around finance or registries or anon).

EVERYTHING not anon is better centralized...
And the market for anon is tops 5% of the global economy (mostly grey markets).

But nobody cares about the specifics...
Just show me the next bubble... with a cool whitepaper... and excellent buzzwords.

The Bitcoin bull run is going to spawn a new orgy of ICO scams.

sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
I wrote some posts about The DAO which are very similar to Barry's point:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.15206740

Barry Silbert says:

Although Silbert is excited about Ethereum, he does not agree with the vision held by some of Ethereum’s most-ardent supporters. He explained:

    “I sense there’s a certain utopian view of society, which I may or may not agree with philosophically, that I just don’t see from a real-world application perspective happening anytime soon.”

Silbert went on to explain that a world where there is no regulation, lawyers, contracts, or SEC rules is not going to exist in the near future. He then clarified, “It may solve some problems. The idea of a decentralized autonomous organization, it’s super interesting.”

Silbert also noted that many of the earliest applications built on Ethereum are related to gambling, Ponzi schemes, or pyramid schemes, but he also admitted that this isn’t necessarily a problem. He added, “That’s OK because that’s an interesting way to experiment; it’s certainly what happened with Bitcoin.”

What Does the World Need from Ethereum?

One of the main criticisms of Ethereum up to this point has been the lack of useful applications that solve real-world problems. On a recent episode of Unconfirmed Transactions, host Dan Anderson and Wall Street veteran Tone Vays described how Ethereum supporters were unable to provide any use cases for the project to them at a recent meetup in New York.

During his panel appearance on day one of Consensus 2016, Silbert seemed sympathetic to the idea that practical applications of Ethereum are yet to be found. He stated: “I don’t think the world needs a decentralized Uber, which is one project. I don’t think the world needs a decentralized AirBnb, which is another project.”

Having said that, it’s important to remember that Ethereum is a platform on which a developer is essentially given the power to build any decentralized application they wish. It’s possible the best use cases of Ethereum have simply not been thought of at this point.

During his final comments on DAOs, Silbert questioned the role these decentralized organizations can play in the real world. He concluded:

     “These DAOs that are raising money from the masses with — basically it’s a blank check. It’s a pool of capital that’s going to be deployed in a way that I think will be very democratic. I’m skeptical because I don’t know the role it needs to play in society. I don’t know, in the capital formation process, what’s wrong with our current system that it’s solving for. I’m philosophically supportive. I hope it’s successful, but I don’t see the problem it’s solving yet.”
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
Please do. You could win a nobel-prize with it.

It is not that difficult, not deserving of a nobel-prize. The technology will be released soon in the context of strictly CC, not smart block chain. I don't like to give ETAs but it better be released within 2016. But I wasn't planning on targeting smart contracts initially. I am only 1 coder so I don't think I could do that all in one step with one launch. jl777 is probably closer to doing something with smart block chain scripting than I am, but again I should not speak for him and he can followed on slack apparently, so perhaps consider this inquiry as feedback for him as he maps out the GUIs for his next product launch. (no commitment yet from me if I working on his stuff or not, trying to feel my way through what the best priorities are)

As for actual stocks on the block chain, that is also a use case except it intersects regulations. The DAO attempts to sidestep that under the presumption that the stockholders vote on every decision of the organization, thus being entirely decentralized mgmt, then there is no "secuirty" of relying on others to manage the money invested. Thus in theory sidestepping investment securities regulation. But the problem is afaics, the DAO concept fails both game theory and also I can't see how any organization can function with stockholders voting on each decision of who to hire, fire, evaluate work, etc..

Legal contracts and perhaps business process logic can be enforced by smart contracts. The external inputs need to come into the block chain by way of M-of-N agents who sign the data. Can't just have the miners grab an unsigned data feed, as that would break Nash equilibrium.
hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 500
The thing with smart contracts is that they bloat up the chain really fast and once the chain is really big the node-count collapses and the coin stops being decentral. So to make smart contract viable you'd need new technology for compressing data and that's not happening currently.

I can fix that.

Please do. You could win a nobel-prize with it.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
The thing with smart contracts is that they bloat up the chain really fast and once the chain is really big the node-count collapses and the coin stops being decentral. So to make smart contract viable you'd need new technology for compressing data and that's not happening currently.

I can fix that.
hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 500
The thing with smart contracts is that they bloat up the chain really fast and once the chain is really big the node-count collapses and the coin stops being decentral - and a crypto that's not decentral isn't a crypto and is worth zilch, nada, zero.

So to make smart contract viable you'd need new technology for compressing data and that's not happening currently.

Longterm viable smart contracts in a truely decentral network are probably still a decade away.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
gustav, I wasn't limiting the use cases to the ETH block chain design. We already skewered Ethereum in the Ethereum Paradox thread.

Of course, I am assuming someone doing correct engineering, not Vitalik, Tual, et al wasting $millions on being technobullshit rock stars. When I was age 21, I coded WordUp in my bedroom for a year. When I launched a shipping product to the real market, my father invested $30,000. The company was profitable and helped 1000s of users with a real use case. I don't produce bullshit software.

https://www.google.com/search?q=neocept+wordup

Now I promised myself to not waste time attacking others, so let's just leave it at that. I hold Vitalik to the same standard as I what I was able to do at his age. I worked hard and quietly and produced real s/w. Not roam around talking and promoting pie-in-the-sky delusions to n00bs. Even the one Comdex show and another San Fernando valley usergroup I did, I was very frank with the audience about the capabilities and limitations of the s/w. I guess I have to thank Ethereum for creating so much hype in the market that investors are ready to hand over so much money. So perhaps I should be praising them for promoting crypto. So I guess I will take that perspective and HODL my engineering nose about the level of delusion and lack of frankness about the technological (game theory, economics, scaling, etc) bullshit. Everyone has their freewill and their own choice. They should be free to reap what they sow.

The DAO is really unreal. But it makes perfect sense why n00bs can be lead to that delusion. And the audacity of Tual to say he thinks it will be good for crypto even if all the money is wasted. Well in some sense, I have to admit he is correct, because everyone should be free to learn and experiment and waste $150 million. More power to them Lol.

So any way, back to OpenBazaar that seems to be potentially a valid use case if engineered correctly.

gustav, I am more Hero account than you. If I had stayed with one account, I'd be Legendary already. I don't think we are arguing, are we?
hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 500
So some dope-dealers on a tiny black market is your "massadoption", huh?

Buy and sell ads are very popular.

Unlike Craigslist, the idea is to add some reputation and escrow, to make it more reliable.

Having many different websites, each with different reputation schemes, is not as efficient.

Yeah I guess illegal products will be listed. But the government can't prosecute the decentralized block chain. It will have to go after the users who avail of those products.

That is IF the blockchain was decentral which it isn't and it wouldn't fall apart due to bloat within the next 24 months, maybe then there could be a remote chance for it to attract some pocketchange-applications but sadly, it won't be functional long enough to build up an ecosystem or userbase. It'll just fade into obscurity from here on out as more and more unsoluble problems and exploits start surfacing ony by one, imo.

I said it months ago that they would cut back on everything because all these promises can't be held and the tech aswell as math is faulty.  They'll just have to scale the features back a lot to be barely able to keep it afloat. It is a true shitcoin, bro. King of shitcoins, that's what it is. You'll admit this later too, no worries.
 
Hardfork incoming  Wink


edit: it's also pretty remarkable how on almost all these ETH-pump-threads it's always hero and legendary members arguing with a member or lower about all this. You think we don't see that all the accounts pumping ETH who are above jr. member status are actually bought accounts? I'm arguing with a newbie account about ETH, lol.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
So some dope-dealers on a tiny black market is your "massadoption", huh?

Buy and sell ads are very popular.

Unlike Craigslist, the idea is to add some reputation and escrow, to make it more reliable.

Having many different websites, each with different reputation schemes, is not as efficient.

Yeah I guess illegal products will be listed. But the government can't prosecute the decentralized block chain. It will have to go after the users who avail of those products.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
Thanks for sharing that epistle from CIYAM (community can be decentralized with DVCS open source):

Are "virtual corporations" really a great idea?

Could creating such autonomous entities actually make the world an even worse place?

It doesn't matter, because as I explained in the OP, a decentralized management structure by mass voting is a dysfunctional structure. It will simply blow up and fail to produce anything but redistribution of the money pool. I enumerated two reasons:

1. Organization is the antithesis of decentralization.

2. Money pools + voting = power vacuum

The DAO is nonsense except as a game around money pool power structure and politics. I am not even interested in discussing it further as it is a waste of time. Investors are doing that because they are deluded into thinking they can get rich want to lose their money. I think n00bs feel more comfortable with politics, than technology. They understand are familiar with politics. The DAO is taking technology that n00bs don't understand and packaging it in something the n00bs think is fair— democracy. Yet democracy is a power vacuum that always leads to totalitarianism. Since n00bs have never figured this out in 6000 years, then this can be reused to enslave them over and over again.


Vitalik, Tual, Larimars, etc.. seem to have wild fantasies that have no grounding in reality. I don't understand those dudes. Don't they know what they are building is crap. Or are they really deluded by their naive fantasies. Or maybe subconsciously the money is enough to motivate them, i.e. they are clever marketers, since it is obviously much easier to sell the fantasies to n00bs than to build mass adoption. Any way, I don't have time to worry or wonder about the way their thinking operates. And I don't want to go back into criticizing people. I will stand aside and observe them crash and burn. Unfortunately, those guys probably walk away with $millions and the n00bs lose. Boohoo that has been life for 6000 years.

I am just trying to ascertain if there are any valid use cases that I need to be aware of.


Edit: others are pointing out that investors better get the fuck out of the DAO and accept the -33% loss else they are going to end up losing everything:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.15157775

Who ever invested in the DAO deserves the -33% instant loss to teach them a lesson. Those who hold on, will lose more.

I do expect the SEC will be coming after Tual et al, or who ever ends up capturing the power vacuum and keeping all the ETH wealth as it is extracted from the system by n00bs selling out as they realize it is fucked and by forcing "Yes" votes that pay to themselves. See the game theory I explained in my OP.
hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 500
gustav, I think OpenBazaar may be a valid wide adoption use case, and off the top of my head (without thinking deeply about it), appears we need the block chain to validate each state transition around transactions and listings, so that rules about reputation are enforced and validated by the block chain. Otherwise, the criticisms I levied against CounterParty will seem to apply to OpenBazaar.

I do agree those investing in the smart block chain schemes aren't really interesting in mass adoption. They want get-rich-quick money pooling schemes.

So some dope-dealers on a tiny black market is your "massadoption", huh? I think they'll choose a more decentralized token than ETH for making their contracts. ETH won't even get the black market usecase. A competitor will snatch that up eventually.
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