Vanguard...when? | Bitcointalksearch.org

DaveF

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Quote from: ranochigo on January 03, 2025, 03:47:10 AM

Quote from: ? on January 03, 2025, 03:08:15 AM

Entities like that are hard nuts to crack.
And maybe you are right - if they have their arguments not to follow the trail as others, they are free to go that path.
They may rethink their decision, but it would be pretty late to the party.

Well, hindsight is 20/20. We can say that all of the other funds are doing the right thing by adopting Bitcoin ETFs because Bitcoin has become more valuable relative to when they were first launched.

Bitcoin isn't the first asset or commodity that they have foregone. It definitely won't be the last. For speculative assets, its pretty obvious why funds are not as enticed to invest as say something that generates constant and relatively safer returns. It probably doesn't matter much to them, nor to us.

100% this.

And one other point is that it can actually be a selling point. A big one.
'We don't make as much money but take fewer risks' or even 'Due to our overly cautious nature of investing processes we have had fewer losses over the years' and so on.

And as I said a month ago:

Quote

Think about it, you could have sold your BTC holdings in July 2020 lets call it $10000 per coin so holding selling it today would get you $100000 per coin. That's 10X
BUT if you sold and bought nvida stock back in July 2020 it was at $10 a share now it's at $140 that is a 14X increase. AND nvidia has paid out some dividends between then and now.

So if some funds bought BTC 4 1/2 years ago and other funds bought Nvidia the ones that bought Nvidia are laughing all the way to the bank.....

-Dave

ranochigo

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Quote from: ? on January 03, 2025, 03:08:15 AM

Entities like that are hard nuts to crack.
And maybe you are right - if they have their arguments not to follow the trail as others, they are free to go that path.
They may rethink their decision, but it would be pretty late to the party.

Well, hindsight is 20/20. We can say that all of the other funds are doing the right thing by adopting Bitcoin ETFs because Bitcoin has become more valuable relative to when they were first launched.

Bitcoin isn't the first asset or commodity that they have foregone. It definitely won't be the last. For speculative assets, its pretty obvious why funds are not as enticed to invest as say something that generates constant and relatively safer returns. It probably doesn't matter much to them, nor to us.

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Quote from: ranochigo on January 02, 2025, 09:40:10 PM

Vanguard released a statement early last year on this: https://corporate.vanguard.com/content/corporatesite/us/en/corp/articles/no-bitcoin-etfs-at-vanguard-heres-why.html

I think they have covered it pretty thoroughly and also explained why it doesn't fit with their business strategies. There is no need to blast them for it, and I'm sure they've done their evaluation better than any of us could and reached that conclusion. Some companies are more adamant on investing in assets with a different objective and that's fine. Their stance might change in the future, but they're entitled to stick to their own for now.

Entities like that are hard nuts to crack.
And maybe you are right - if they have their arguments not to follow the trail as others, they are free to go that path.
They may rethink their decision, but it would be pretty late to the party.

ranochigo

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Vanguard released a statement early last year on this: https://corporate.vanguard.com/content/corporatesite/us/en/corp/articles/no-bitcoin-etfs-at-vanguard-heres-why.html

I think they have covered it pretty thoroughly and also explained why it doesn't fit with their business strategies. There is no need to blast them for it, and I'm sure they've done their evaluation better than any of us could and reached that conclusion. Some companies are more adamant on investing in assets with a different objective and that's fine. Their stance might change in the future, but they're entitled to stick to their own for now.

batang_bitcoin

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Was it that they've tried to meddle in the space way way back then? Or I was just mixing up things when there were series of ETF applications circa 2017-2018 but none of them were approved. I think it's another icebreaker if Vanguard starts to be vocal about getting into Bitcoin. BlackRock is in and it's only a matter of time until we see the confidence of most of the investors starts to be felt by the market or we're already feeling it but this isn't the peak yet that we have to see. Normies are into ETFs but real Bitcoin investors are on it for owning and holding the actual BTC.

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Quote from: ChiBitCTy on January 02, 2025, 04:00:32 AM

So if you know much of anything about the financial world, you are aware of whom Vanguard is. They are the second largest fund company on the planet (behind BlackRock). I am absolutely amazed that Vanguards CEO Salim Ramji has not "pulled the trigger” to create an ETF in the space.

I think it's inevitable, and there's no way they can just keep missing out on all this capital. Has anyone heard any updates on this front? This would be a HUGE book for bitcoin and price wise.

I am not interested in the ETF versions of bitcoin, so this is clearly not my concern even though I understand perfectly well that such development may or might trigger a more price increase for bitcoin and maybe the entire crypto market as a whole, and also help to solidify bitcoin as a world class asset available to receive investment even from world elites.

I personally have learnt to only believe in something as they come or happen, most especially in crypto, because expecting things to happens can most of the time influence our investment decisions, where if indeed, we end up making decisions based on our expectations, and our expectations did not or never came to pass, we will be disappointed and may possibly lose money as well.

So, until we see vanguard coming out publicly to discus the possible listing of a bitcoin spot ETF, I am never betting a dime on it.

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Quote from: Nwada001 on January 02, 2025, 04:18:47 AM

His reasons are best known to him. For someone who has almost 26 years of experience in financial services, not seeing the importance of ETFs is what I don't understand about his logic. After he resumed as the new CEO of Vanguard on the 8th of July last year (2024), he made a statement a month later that the company doesn't have any plans for any cryptocurrency traded funds; maybe he just doesn't see reasons to.

If other board members see reason to disagree with his logic, they can present a proposal for it to be argued and discussed. Let's see if the majority will side with him or if he can reverse his statement.

He is an employee of Vanguard who much align with the philosophy of the company. The company sees Bitcoin as a speculative asset and has the philosophy of not investing in it. Salim Ramji who was the former head of BlackRock oversaw the application and approval of the company's Spot Bitcoin ETF process has in-depth knowledge of the crypto industry but his hands are tied by the philosophy of Vanguard.

The $8.6 trillion in assets management firm is just watching while competitors are making a fortune from the ETF. Maybe with more pressure from customers, Vanguard might consider reviewing it's position in future.

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Quote from: Wiwo on January 02, 2025, 08:49:35 AM

Vanguard seems to be taking risk caution as bitcoin ETF comes with its own risk and as a financial company that javelin investors fund and even retirement savings funds, is essential to trade with caution, I understand the potential and profit opportunities in bitcoin ETF position, but we should also know that different approach for different businesses, I can't say that there are going to look away from investing in bitcoin ETF but certainly the right approach and time need to be taken for a company as big as vanguard.

Yeah but here’s the thing, no one is being forced to buy it. Also, it’s not like any retirement plans will be adding Bitcoin or Ether ETFs, so it’s a niche investment, let people do what they want.

What’s amazig to me is that they offering their funds in products like Bonus Annuities (which are 100% a scam), as well as in Dark Pools etc. Yet they won’t add btc.

so even if they know oil/bitcoin are real assets, they prefer to double bak their investments
i can easily see warren buffet/vanguard eventually offering an index of crypto institutions, rather than an etf peg of crypto itself
[/quote]

Warren is a dinosaur who knows NOTHING about tech and especially bitcoin (which he’s admitted before). I would not compare the two at all.

franky1

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vanguard, like warren buffet do not prefer to speculate on produce ownership, EG oil futures / stocks.. what they do prefer is to buy into ownership of oil supplying(rigs/refinery) businesses. this way even if the product is not demand performing they still have ownership of the underlying land, building, property and machinery as assets to support the shares from completely bottoming out

so even if they know oil/bitcoin are real assets, they prefer to double bak their investments
i can easily see warren buffet/vanguard eventually offering an index of crypto institutions, rather than an etf peg of crypto itself

Ale88

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Quote from: ? on January 02, 2025, 04:24:14 AM

Quote from: Nwada001 on January 02, 2025, 04:18:47 AM

His reasons are best known to him. For someone who has almost 26 years of experience in financial services, not seeing the importance of ETFs is what I don't understand about his logic. After he resumed as the new CEO of Vanguard on the 8th of July last year (2024), he made a statement a month later that the company doesn't have any plans for any cryptocurrency traded funds; maybe he just doesn't see reasons to.

If other board members see reason to disagree with his logic, they can present a proposal for it to be argued and discussed. Let's see if the majority will side with him or if he can reverse his statement.

In January, Jackson said that, quote: "In Vanguard’s view, crypto is more of a speculation than an investment. This is at the root of our decision to not offer crypto products, whether our own or others. With equities, you own a share of a company that produces goods or services, and many also pay dividends". (source)
So there is that.

Yes, I remember this declaration but to me it makes little sense at this point, I feel like this is more like an excuse. At the end of the day I don't care whether Vanguard approves or not a bitcoin ETF, it bothers me more the fact that bitcoin is still called "speculation", like if behind all the other financial assets there was no speculation but just good intentions Roll Eyes

Mia Chloe

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Firstly let's reflect on the fact that they are still next after black rock right? Well that pretty much clears out the fact that they are still making calculated risks and most importantly they are making investments to secure their spot and ROI in their investments. Sometimes I don't take the declarations of firms like this as the full details because it's very possible they own a ton of bitcoin sitting in a wallet even before this bull.

Vanguard's decision not to offer Bitcoin ETFs seems kinda counterintuitive given the growing demand for cryptocurrency investments. it appears that Vanguard has not changed its stance on Bitcoin ETFs since Morningstar's John Rekenthaler argues that Vanguard made the right decision by not offering Bitcoin ETFs because of bitcoins speculative nature.

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Vanguard seems to be taking risk caution as bitcoin ETF comes with its own risk and as a financial company that javelin investors fund and even retirement savings funds, is essential to trade with caution, I understand the potential and profit opportunities in bitcoin ETF position, but we should also know that different approach for different businesses, I can't say that there are going to look away from investing in bitcoin ETF but certainly the right approach and time need to be taken for a company as big as vanguard.

aoluain

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Quote from: ? on January 02, 2025, 04:24:14 AM

Quote from: Nwada001 on January 02, 2025, 04:18:47 AM

His reasons are best known to him. For someone who has almost 26 years of experience in financial services, not seeing the importance of ETFs is what I don't understand about his logic. After he resumed as the new CEO of Vanguard on the 8th of July last year (2024), he made a statement a month later that the company doesn't have any plans for any cryptocurrency traded funds; maybe he just doesn't see reasons to.

If other board members see reason to disagree with his logic, they can present a proposal for it to be argued and discussed. Let's see if the majority will side with him or if he can reverse his statement.

In January, Jackson said that, quote: "In Vanguard’s view, crypto is more of a speculation than an investment. This is at the root of our decision to not offer crypto products, whether our own or others. With equities, you own a share of a company that produces goods or services, and many also pay dividends". (source)
So there is that.

I think its only a matter of time before they succumb to the fact that Bitcoin is the
hottest investment tool there is otherwise they may lose their position as the second
biggest fund management company to Fidelity who could see further investments
in their Bitcoin ETF, or at best Blackrock will open a larger advantage over Vanguard.

Maybe Vanguard will become a haven for investors who share their sentiment
about Crypto investments and over time that cohort of investors will become
less and less

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Quote from: justdimin on January 02, 2025, 04:58:40 AM

Quote from: ChiBitCTy on January 02, 2025, 04:00:32 AM

I think it's inevitable, and there's no way they can just keep missing out on all this capital. Has anyone heard any updates on this front? This would be a HUGE book for bitcoin and price wise.

I am sure every player in the financial world would adapt bitcoin at some point of time to survive. It is just another "adapt or die" kind of scenario for all of them. Basically they do not mind about being "early bird" benefits or must be concerning about the "up to 80% down side volatile" nature of bitcoin (when more adaptions happening this 80% will shrink toward single digit for sure).

Like many people here, I was expecting Warren Buffet to adapt bitcoin because I read he has been sitting with lots of cash rather than being invested. But, Trump's proposal for federal reserve of bitcoin really surprised me and I am sure all financial institutions must be working right now on some bitcoin products and only their official announcement is being delayed for some reasons IMO.

Don't you think there would be another thing as Bitcoin to spike things up in the investment-wise sense? It was AI previously and every functionality imaginable for man to add up to any product, now it's Bitcoin and how everybody changes their views and mind about it, then - it would be something different.
Of course, I hope for everybody to see through fud and invest in BTC - but it wouldn't be the end of the world for anybody. They would just lose their lead on it.

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Quote from: ChiBitCTy on January 02, 2025, 04:00:32 AM

I think it's inevitable, and there's no way they can just keep missing out on all this capital. Has anyone heard any updates on this front? This would be a HUGE book for bitcoin and price wise.

I am sure every player in the financial world would adapt bitcoin at some point of time to survive. It is just another "adapt or die" kind of scenario for all of them. Basically they do not mind about being "early bird" benefits or must be concerning about the "up to 80% down side volatile" nature of bitcoin (when more adaptions happening this 80% will shrink toward single digit for sure).

Like many people here, I was expecting Warren Buffet to adapt bitcoin because I read he has been sitting with lots of cash rather than being invested. But, Trump's proposal for federal reserve of bitcoin really surprised me and I am sure all financial institutions must be working right now on some bitcoin products and only their official announcement is being delayed for some reasons IMO.

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Quote from: Darker45 on January 02, 2025, 04:52:09 AM

Two things are inevitable here. It's either Vanguard bends the knee or it will become obsolete. So far, Vanguard remains adamant about not offering ETFs to its clients. They're already missing a lot of money because of this, but they stick with their decision.

The latest remains the same. Bitcoin will be rejected. It's weak, based on speculation, risky, lacks intrinsic value, not established in the investment market, no economic fundamentals, and so on. Therefore, it should have “no role in long-term investment portfolios”. They're doubling down on this.

Vanguard is destined to either swallow their pride or lose relevance.

Bitcoin is a new - big thing - for institutions and investment companies - and they should hop on and learn more about Bitcoin.
I agree with you in the fact that - they would lose relevance as time goes on, or they would only be able to try to come where others are already pushing forward.

Z-tight

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Nobody knows when, that is if ever, the company does not offer BTC etf and i don't think they have plans for it right now.

The only 'small' hope of that happening is that Salim Ramji was with Blackrock when they were applying for a BTC etf, he left for Vanguard before the U.S. accepted the etf proposals, but he was part of the process before he left. So maybe in the near future if the company has a change of heart about it, he will support it, no?

Darker45

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Two things are inevitable here. It's either Vanguard bends the knee or it will become obsolete. So far, Vanguard remains adamant about not offering ETFs to its clients. They're already missing a lot of money because of this, but they stick with their decision.

The latest remains the same. Bitcoin will be rejected. It's weak, based on speculation, risky, lacks intrinsic value, not established in the investment market, no economic fundamentals, and so on. Therefore, it should have “no role in long-term investment portfolios”. They're doubling down on this.

Vanguard is destined to either swallow their pride or lose relevance.

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Quote from: Nwada001 on January 02, 2025, 04:18:47 AM

His reasons are best known to him. For someone who has almost 26 years of experience in financial services, not seeing the importance of ETFs is what I don't understand about his logic. After he resumed as the new CEO of Vanguard on the 8th of July last year (2024), he made a statement a month later that the company doesn't have any plans for any cryptocurrency traded funds; maybe he just doesn't see reasons to.

If other board members see reason to disagree with his logic, they can present a proposal for it to be argued and discussed. Let's see if the majority will side with him or if he can reverse his statement.

In January, Jackson said that, quote: "In Vanguard’s view, crypto is more of a speculation than an investment. This is at the root of our decision to not offer crypto products, whether our own or others. With equities, you own a share of a company that produces goods or services, and many also pay dividends". (source)
So there is that.

Nwada001

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His reasons are best known to him. For someone who has almost 26 years of experience in financial services, not seeing the importance of ETFs is what I don't understand about his logic. After he resumed as the new CEO of Vanguard on the 8th of July last year (2024), he made a statement a month later that the company doesn't have any plans for any cryptocurrency traded funds; maybe he just doesn't see reasons to.

If other board members see reason to disagree with his logic, they can present a proposal for it to be argued and discussed. Let's see if the majority will side with him or if he can reverse his statement.

Topic: Vanguard...when? (Read 156 times)