Topic: Venezuela hit by new nationwide powercut for more than three days - page 4. (Read 894 times)

There is another development from Venezuela. The army has fired on tribal protesters in the Gran Sabana region, and there are reports of multiple casualties. The deaths were from the Pemon Indian tribe. The government is going ahead with a massive gold mining project, which the Indians claim will make their lands uninhabitable. Gold is one of the few remaining forex earners for Venezuela. A few weeks ago, the government had sold 29 tonnes of gold to the United Arab Emirates.

There isn't one that I know of, but given how thin the market there is, there is no such a thing as reliable Venezuelan Bitcoin price index. People there either buy very close to western spot prices, or significantly overpay.

It's literally what the highest bidder wants to pay for a coin. In shaky countries there is little supply yet quite a high demand, so from there sellers basically can ask whatever they want for their coins.

I am following https://coin.dance/volume/localbitcoins/VES

For once it's not peanuts volumes that we have seen in countries such as Iran and some African countries that news outlets unreservedly referred to as crypto hotspots. Venezuela is marching forward.

I dont think anyone here is geologist or a chemist but on a basic level the oil from from Venezuela does need refinement before it can be used generally.   Its carrying a heavy amount of sulphur which makes it sour crude not like Texas sweet crude which I believe is easier to sell on.    

True its a massive resource but it did require proper management, just scooping it up in a bucket as it pours out of the ground wasnt going to be enough.   Government ruined the industry dominated management decisions and alienated investment that could have handled the price going up and down like it has, spending required would have made.   Instead only money was taken which is not how any proper business works, its just not that easy.

As I understand it the oil workers were not paid liveable wages which means even if the infrastructure is there the staff are not present or asleep from working several jobs to stay alive

That’s always the major problem that is much more common with socialism. When what they give out is more than what comes in. The leaders have put the country into debt and the debt keeps climbing rather than reducing and the interest on their debt is now the greatest single expenditure.  The country has had years of lousy presidents. Their problem is not oil, and I believe also that they can survive without oil if they really want to, they have lots of gift within them that they can really explore if they want. let them just work on their leaders.

Is there a place with a reliable price index for Venezuela? Would interesting to see statistics and and more real time info.

The crisis in Venezuela is not going to have any effect on the market of cryptocurrencies, however cryptocurrencies can have a huge effect on the lives of the few people that can get their hands on some bitcoin because as the production goes down everything becomes more expensive for the average person to buy so even a small amount of bitcoin can mean the difference between having something to eat or not, I just hope that the people of Venezuela learn that they cannot rely on the government to print their currency or this will happen again.

I guess they published a new thing on how they could handle a 30 day electric cut as well, when the problem is going all the way to not having any food to eat and literally losing weight as a whole nation there are bigger problems than just electric but since its the year 2019 many of the foods do have a fridge requirement to keep fresh or they go to waste, not like I think the food there ever goes to waste but the ones that are left will have a rotting issue as well so they need to store them better.

I don't know whats going to happen there but bitcoin is not enough to battle this out all by itself, bitcoin is a good helper for people who are losing their money and for people who had some bitcoin beforehand but its not going to be enough to get them out of this situation.

50% copper vs 90% oil...
40% inflation vs 1,000,000% inflation...
You didn't mention Brazil, or the rest of South America...

Do you even know where that inflation comes from? Are you REALLY asking this in the economics area?

What did Germany had at the time of Ludwig Erhard? And what did they do to become what they are today? What makes you think Venezuela can't restart its economy, or that there aren't several investors waiting for Maduro to leave?

Actually all three products you mention do exist "made in Venezuela", but that is off topic. Indeed your ignorance is boundless. Hint: Siragon.

Socialism destroyed the economy, and most industries stopped. What is needed for them to return? a free market economy. Good economy = more income from taxes, simple. And to boost it lower the taxes in key areas, this brings even more income from those taxes. Why can't you understand something this simple or call it "socialism"? A smaller State doesn't need a huge budget anyway, that is the point of selling the State owned companies.

Its not the State that needs money, its the people, and they get it when the economy becomes free and they can work and start business again.


Very well no taxes, because taxes are socialism... NOT. Actually the Kingdom of Norway considers itself a Welfare State... Incidentally their Oil accounts only for 33% of their exports...

You alone came with this "tax the hell out of it" nonsense, you seem to ignore the century this country had foreign oil companies working and getting taxed as almost everybody else does in the world.

Chavez did not nationalize the oil industry, it was done by Perez in 1976. Again, get your facts right...

Unfortunately, you're the ignorant one, and you're letting your pride getting the better of you.


FACT:
Copper exports make 50% of Chile exports.
FACT:
Argentina is experiencing the second inflation in South America and 5th in the world at around 40%.
FACT:
Uruguay went this decade alone through two crisis and relies on exports of raw material and food also. Manufactured products...not that much.

Swiss of America?
You realize that's insulting to every Swiss person on this planet right?


We will come to this point at the end of the discussion.
But I'm laughing my ass here seeing somebody accusing me of being a socialist.


Yes, no nothing!
The country has nothing left, no industry, no power, no food no nothing.
Oh wait, my computer is made in Venezuela, my laptop is made in Venezuela, my car is made in Venezuela  /sarcasm
You're from Venezuela, right?
If you still have industry and agriculture and tourism why is this inflation going through the roof?



Oh, the irony, this is why I told you your ideas are so funny

You are talking exactly like a socialist!!!!
You're going to sell something to pay your debts.
Just like Maduro sold the gold to pay for food for his militia you're going to sell the oil company to have food for a few months...and then?

Norway (which is not socialist btw) has a state-owned oil company.
And they are doing pretty fine with it and have no plans on selling it, why?
Because unlike you people they are used to think two steps ahead and not only with the stomach.

What are you going to do once the money from selling PDSVA will run out?
Oh, you're going to tax the hell out of the ones you sold the company to. Doesn't this sound a bit socialist to you? A bit more?
You're going to nationalize it again as Chavez did?  
This is your great plan of getting out of poverty, selling the only clothes you have left and then rob the guy that you sold them to?

This is why I said just sending Maduro to the moon won't solve anything.
You've been living in a socialist state for so long you don't realize that your revolutionary ideas are still socialist.

Anyhow
Unless this goes back to Cryptos and Venezuela I'm no longer replying in this already off-topic thread as this should be done in P&S

Oh really? No industry? No tourism? No Agriculture? Your ignorance cannot be worse. You are thinking like a socialist. Venezuela doesn't need that oil income, and any free market economy can do fine with 10% or less of that. Venezuela's oil barrel costs 10USD less than west texas, not brent, it is the world's cheapest because its heavy, which is why we built giant refineries to export finished product as opposed to crude oil, at least before the socialists seized power...

First thing to do is shrink the state, sell those companies and stimulate the economy with lower taxes and other incentives. Just by selling the state companies there is plenty of money to keep things running without getting any more debts.

To me just dismantling the gigantic over-bloated socialist state with a much lean and smaller classic liberalism state or similar, is all this country needs to do to be better than Chile. Oh and Chile is not living of copper alone, that's another sign of ignorance. And you even mentioned "south America", so, Brazil and Argentina extract what from the ground again? What about Uruguay, so called "Swiss of the Americas"? I could keep going but very few countries in the world are "dependent" on a single resource as if they had nothing else, such as, maybe the middle east countries surrounded by sand.

It was the wrong choice and politicians to neglect other sectors, if the state oil company is sold, you can tax that and everyone else, and no longer would the corrupt politicians be tempted to steal all that income since it won't be in their hands ever again.

Probably will not have an impact in global ecosystem of cryptocurrency but will surely impact the economic lives of those who solely depend in cryptocurrency as the source of their income in Venezuela as we all know that there are crypto dependent in that third world country. Poor citizens, they are suffering from mismanagement of their leaders in their country.

1) That's Brent oil.
https://oilprice.com/oil-price-charts
Merey oil price is at 55$. (heavy oil , needs more refining).
2) Oil production in Venezuela has plummeted to a little more over 1 million barrels a day, that's 55 million compared to your numbers of 140. 1/3

During Chavez's era oil was at over 100 $ at production at 2.8 million barrels, that's six times the income.
Oil can recover but when you need to export it half the globe away and your production is dropping like a stone, it matters less and less.

And let's do a bit more of math.

Let's assume the cost per barrel is 20$ and you export a million barrels a day.
If you sell at 50$ you have a profit of 30 million.
If you sell at double the price, 100$ you have a profit of 80 million, (nearly triple)

So, in reality, the difference is enormous and hard to find anything to compensate.



My country was fword after the Warsaw pact fall.
Although we were also fword for about ten years before it finally bit the dust.

It took us about 10 years of crisis and then stagnation to finally get going and try to catch up with western Europe.
But take a look at Romania, Bulgaria or Moldova.
30 years since the fall of communism, 10 years in the EU, free trade, EU funding, ....and close to nothing.

No, just throwing Maduro out won't solve the problems, it is indeed a necessary step but it's just the first out of a hundred or so.


Yeah, because living without income from natural resources has worked so fine for evey country in South America...oh wait!
The only economy that is not bleeding right now is Chile, that relies on its immense copper exports


Anyhow, we should return to talking about cryptos and Venezuela

In this you are wrong, VERY wrong. As i wrote before, the Venezuelan oil industry is profitable even if the oil barrel goes down to 7USD. The problem IS NOT the oil price, is the GIANT mismanagement and misuse of funds, and the politicians meddling.

The socialists are not competent or efficient at all. Quite the opposite, anything they do (if ever) costs 10x more, and takes 100x more to do.

ANYONE that is not from Maduro's party, WILL FREE THE ECONOMY. This is the main root of Venezuela's poverty. The second root is STOPPING CRIMINALITY.

Furthermore Venezuela COULD LIVE WITHOUT OIL if it wanted, you have no idea how wrong you are by making that statement.

Please take a look here: https://www.nasdaq.com/markets/crude-oil-brent.aspx

The oil prices have already recovered and surprisingly it is having no positive impact on the Venezuelan economy. If I am not wrong, Venezuela earns around $140 million every day from the exports of crude (at this price).

You know things are tragic when Venezuelans have resorted to farming digital items in video games for money.  Playing a video game is better money than working in their own country.

I know someone that has been mining in Venezuela and they still haven't been discovered.  Its extremely good money for them if they can stay hidden.

This is debatable. If Maduro leaves and there's a change in the govt, it's very likely that the new govt (if it isn't pro-chavez/maduro) will receive external help -financially- from the World Bank^[1], the IMF, and I wouldn't discard foreign investors. Also, there's no doubt that humanitarian help will finally enter the country.

So, I do think that if Maduro resigns (along with his cabinet), things can change for the better. Sure, things won't get fixed overnight, but it'll help stop the economic collapse and the deteriorating lifestyle of venezuelans, at least in a year or two.

1. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-imf-g20-worldbank-venezuela-idUSKBN17L1IG

I'm 99% sure that this is bait. Let's see who falls for it.

Three letters, CIA. 

The magic cure might be stop diverting resources away from profitable enterprise to suffer the burden of 'free' gifts from government.    Unfortunately this idea of the people (which ends up being the political/military  people) own everything is embedded too deep into the political atmosphere of Venezuela.      
They need deep reform, obviously a change of government would likely help but apparently change is not feasible or allowed democratically.    Its the same thing that would happen anywhere that the joints that allow change were frozen, its leading to bigger failures and eventually the whole structure trips and falls which serves no one at all.

There is no free, its a myth the cost actually has been gigantic.  Ever been offered Free deals in your own country, suspicious as hell is the reaction most have as we know to look at sum totals for cost.    I'm sad that crypto hasnt been more help, it is possible for blockchain to be efficient in transaction usage if not the mining.    Any effort to spread terminals for crypto should have been linked to solar panels, the worst should have been anticipated and I agree its only excuses now to say we didnt think this would happen.    They could have done this for hubs at least

Cut the bs, nobody abandoned anything.
The bolivar is still used and when it's not it has been replaced by the $.
There are 30 000 000 people in that country, do you imagine how the blockchain would look if everyone would make a tx a day?



https://qz.com/1054805/what-its-like-working-at-a-sprawling-bitcoin-mine-in-inner-mongolia/

Maduro can go away and nothing will be fixed.
Without an increase in oil prices, Venezuela is the same as sub-saharian Africa.
There is no magic cure other than oil, the others are painful and will require years after years of reconstruction.

after fiat money was abandoned and replaced with cryptocurrency, now they are faced with electricity problems, and this is indeed very bad for their economic development, of course electricity is the main factor for crypto