very simple question | Bitcointalksearch.org

ajareselde

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Satoshi is rolling in his grave. #bitcoin

Quote from: zimmah on October 03, 2014, 12:53:50 AM

Constant sell pressure, not enough buy pressure yet.

Need more time for the buyers to match or even outnumber sell pressure. It will happen eventually.

Problem with price decrease is that many people are looking to make a short-term profit, and they store their profit in fiat, rather than in crypto.
That is the main reason the price is, and will continue to descend, until something realy considerable changes.

gogxmagog

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Ad maiora!

Quote from: jaredboice on October 02, 2014, 08:45:47 PM

Quote from: gogxmagog on October 02, 2014, 06:59:08 PM

If anything the institutional players are satoshi.

Here is why I am starting to think so; the institutional players (banks, govt, corporations, tech giants, and financial industry) have known for a long time that they need a digital solution LIKE Bitcoin, but since nothing quite like it has existed before and the transition from fiat-based to digital economy has never been witnessed before they need to do field research on test subjects. They also need to protect themselves from all the guinnea pigs that are going to suffer great losses when it fails.
Invent a crypto, attribute it to a made up person, then release it into the wild. Presto. They get to observe how crypto integration goes, how cryptos work in real world situations, and see what flaws and bugs may crop up, all "hands free" and totally insulated from any sort of culpability regarding disaster. When they have gathered all the info they need they can release a "new, improved" btc-style crypto that mostly suits thief own needs but gives the consumer what he really wants - security and convenience.

I hope I'm just paranoid and it isn't true, but it is one conspiracy theory I can see some probability in.

They do the same thing with experimental medicines, have done so for decades.

Banks and Governments would have never even allowed the IDEA of distributed open source ledgers where anyone can profit from participating as a middleman transaction verifier. It's a Power killer.
Plus, how do you convince everybody to stop using BTC and go to FedCoin or whatever? Doesn't pass the smell test

You'll please forgive me if I dabbed a few to many pheonix tears and read that Bill Gates thing then got carried away. You are right, they ain't satoshi, but they most certainly are paying attention. If they could exploit a similar network they will, and if Bitcoin dies, they will also learn from this. Bill said the technology and utility are exciting but he also said he was specifically unsure if Bitcoin itself will be the one. He was careful to put that out there right away. I guess that says what you did as well though. They simply can't stand the fact that they don't own it!

Spaceman_Spiff

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₪``Campaign Manager´´₪

Quote from: jasonjm on October 02, 2014, 04:47:48 PM

you are not short selling a bitcoin at bitfinex

bitfinex is doing literally nothing when you short sell a bitcoin, other than taking profit on the spread. And then hoping you made a poor trade.

the only way bitfinex prices could actually affect other exchanges, is if other traders see the price is lower on BFX and decide to sell.

however you can be 100% sure that bitfinex is trading directly against its clients AKA you, exactly the same as the cheap Forex trading brokers. Some of them may try partially hedge risk by futures in FX, but there is no such luxury in bitcoinland, there is no solid counterparty to trade futures with.

for example, lets say most of bitfinex clients are long bitcoin on margin, say 3x long on margin.
Lets see the US govt accepts bitcoin as an alternative official currency for the US dollar in a surprise news release, and bitcoin moves to $10 000 within a few seconds of the news.

you can 100% be sure BFX will be broke and you can all kiss your money goodbye. They are not short selling, they are not hedging, they are taking money on the spread and then hoping you are all stupid traders.

You can borrow BTC at BFX to sell them. How is that not shorting? As for affecting other exchanges, that's what arbitraging is for.

pitham1

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Quote from: zimmah on October 03, 2014, 12:53:50 AM

Constant sell pressure, not enough buy pressure yet.

Need more time for the buyers to match or even outnumber sell pressure. It will happen eventually.

I hope the price doesn't collapse to doomsday level lows before this happens.

zimmah

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Constant sell pressure, not enough buy pressure yet.

Need more time for the buyers to match or even outnumber sell pressure. It will happen eventually.

phillipsjk

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Let the chips fall where they may.

Quote from: RockHound on October 02, 2014, 02:21:27 PM

Here's a logical answer to your question regarding the Consensus Algorithm and Bitcoin Price Index:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-TLA3j-ic4

He fails to explain why monetary inflation is a bad thing during initial distribution. He argues that the price would be much higher with Proof-of-Stake: but fails to explain why that would be a good thing.

His marketing background ties into a conspiracy theory I am working on... essentially a PoS coin would be easier for the banking cartel to appropriate.

Edit: he gets into my first objections a little bit in the follow-up video. Yes I understand why large market cap is important. He fails to explain why we should expect it to happen faster than it already has.

flounderella

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Bitcoin Evengelist

Quote from: tins on October 02, 2014, 11:26:32 PM

Quote from: flounderella on October 02, 2014, 11:21:42 PM

Consistent selling pressure from mined bitcoins to make ROI as well as most payment processors immediately converting to fiat when they process payments.

At this point, it's still worth it. Miners will mostly dump until hitting ROI, then keep some, but also take profit.
It won't be until the next halving that the BTC anti-inflationary action kicks in that we will see steady increases ant true market value. Until then, buy all you can...in 3 years y'all will be sittin' pretty.

I agree

tins

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Quote from: flounderella on October 02, 2014, 11:21:42 PM

Consistent selling pressure from mined bitcoins to make ROI as well as most payment processors immediately converting to fiat when they process payments.

At this point, it's still worth it. Miners will mostly dump until hitting ROI, then keep some, but also take profit.
It won't be until the next halving that the BTC anti-inflationary action kicks in that we will see steady increases ant true market value. Until then, buy all you can...in 3 years y'all will be sittin' pretty.

flounderella

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Bitcoin Evengelist

Consistent selling pressure from mined bitcoins to make ROI as well as most payment processors immediately converting to fiat when they process payments.

jaredboice

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Quote from: gogxmagog on October 02, 2014, 06:59:08 PM

If anything the institutional players are satoshi.

Here is why I am starting to think so; the institutional players (banks, govt, corporations, tech giants, and financial industry) have known for a long time that they need a digital solution LIKE Bitcoin, but since nothing quite like it has existed before and the transition from fiat-based to digital economy has never been witnessed before they need to do field research on test subjects. They also need to protect themselves from all the guinnea pigs that are going to suffer great losses when it fails.
Invent a crypto, attribute it to a made up person, then release it into the wild. Presto. They get to observe how crypto integration goes, how cryptos work in real world situations, and see what flaws and bugs may crop up, all "hands free" and totally insulated from any sort of culpability regarding disaster. When they have gathered all the info they need they can release a "new, improved" btc-style crypto that mostly suits thief own needs but gives the consumer what he really wants - security and convenience.

I hope I'm just paranoid and it isn't true, but it is one conspiracy theory I can see some probability in.

They do the same thing with experimental medicines, have done so for decades.

Banks and Governments would have never even allowed the IDEA of distributed open source ledgers where anyone can profit from participating as a middleman transaction verifier. It's a Power killer.
Plus, how do you convince everybody to stop using BTC and go to FedCoin or whatever? Doesn't pass the smell test

Bitmore

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The artificial depressing of the BC by the whales can only be done at increasingly high cost/pressure against upward prices, to eventually slam shut like the jaws of a bear trap.

Eventually prices will move toward the equal balance that only the market can dictate. The resistance against market price rise is eventually going to collapse. And it will be all at once. And it can happen at any time.

gogxmagog

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Ad maiora!

If anything the institutional players are satoshi.

Here is why I am starting to think so; the institutional players (banks, govt, corporations, tech giants, and financial industry) have known for a long time that they need a digital solution LIKE Bitcoin, but since nothing quite like it has existed before and the transition from fiat-based to digital economy has never been witnessed before they need to do field research on test subjects. They also need to protect themselves from all the guinnea pigs that are going to suffer great losses when it fails.
Invent a crypto, attribute it to a made up person, then release it into the wild. Presto. They get to observe how crypto integration goes, how cryptos work in real world situations, and see what flaws and bugs may crop up, all "hands free" and totally insulated from any sort of culpability regarding disaster. When they have gathered all the info they need they can release a "new, improved" btc-style crypto that mostly suits thief own needs but gives the consumer what he really wants - security and convenience.

I hope I'm just paranoid and it isn't true, but it is one conspiracy theory I can see some probability in.

They do the same thing with experimental medicines, have done so for decades.

twiifm

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Quote from: jasonjm on October 02, 2014, 04:47:48 PM

you are not short selling a bitcoin at bitfinex

bitfinex is doing literally nothing when you short sell a bitcoin, other than taking profit on the spread. And then hoping you made a poor trade.

the only way bitfinex prices could actually affect other exchanges, is if other trades see the price is lower on BFX and decide to sell.

however you can be 100% sure that bitfinex is trading directly against its clients AKA you, exactly the same as the cheap Forex trading brokers. Some of them may try partially hedge risk by futures in FX, but there is no such luxury in bitcoinland, there is no solid counterparty to trade futures with.

for example, lets say most of bitfinex clients are long bitcoin on margin, say 3x long on margin.
Lets see the US govt accepts bitcoin as an alternative official currency for the US dollar in a surprise news release, and bitcoin moves to $10 000 within a few seconds of the news.

you can 100% be sure BFX will be broke and you can all kiss your money goodbye. They are not short selling, they are not hedging, they are taking money on the spread and then hoping you are all stupid traders.

The only way you can short is if someone lets you borrow their bitcoin.

I dont use bfx or do any btc trading so i dont know. I trade stocks. So if i wanna short TSLA my broker TD Ameritrade lets me borrow their inventory or they find someone who will

If BFX doesnt do this then they allow naked short selling which is illegal in the stock world

Meuh6879

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Quote from: moriartybitcoin on October 02, 2014, 01:28:22 PM

All the news about Bitcoin is positive, and investors are flocking to the crypto. So why isn't the price going up?

because coinbase, bitpay and other alternate processor ... sell BTC for FIAT.

FIAT is on his end ...

we are the left duck ! Grin

jasonjm

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you are not short selling a bitcoin at bitfinex

bitfinex is doing literally nothing when you short sell a bitcoin, other than taking profit on the spread. And then hoping you made a poor trade.

the only way bitfinex prices could actually affect other exchanges, is if other traders see the price is lower on BFX and decide to sell.

however you can be 100% sure that bitfinex is trading directly against its clients AKA you, exactly the same as the cheap Forex trading brokers. Some of them may try partially hedge risk by futures in FX, but there is no such luxury in bitcoinland, there is no solid counterparty to trade futures with.

for example, lets say most of bitfinex clients are long bitcoin on margin, say 3x long on margin.
Lets see the US govt accepts bitcoin as an alternative official currency for the US dollar in a surprise news release, and bitcoin moves to $10 000 within a few seconds of the news.

you can 100% be sure BFX will be broke and you can all kiss your money goodbye. They are not short selling, they are not hedging, they are taking money on the spread and then hoping you are all stupid traders.

KJO

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Quote from: jasonjm on October 02, 2014, 02:53:18 PM

Quote from: moriartybitcoin on October 02, 2014, 01:28:22 PM

All the news about Bitcoin is positive, and investors are flocking to the crypto. So why isn't the price going up?

ANSWER: Institutional players are artificially depressing the price through short-selling with a plan of buying LOW. Once they move the hot money into Bitcoin, I expect the price to rapidly jump to $1000+

I used to enjoy these forums, but the intelligence of posts on here has been declining.

how do you suppress the price by short selling bitcoins?

how exactly do you short sell a bitcoin?

there is no central exchange, with paper contracts, derivatives, and such, where you could try "short sell" bitcoin, where bitcoins are settled world wide at end of each day. Maybe some websites or exchanges might offer funky bitcoin futures and such, but at this point you are playing with "fictional" bitcoins, there are no real bitcoins trading in these transactions. The house is merely hoping you go broke before they do.

the only way to move the bitcoin price is to actually sell bitcoin. But to do that first you would have to buy bitcoins if you do not have them.

Therefore its a zero sum game.

so out of a multitude of possible answers, your answer is 100% not one of them.

BFX aka Bitfinex

MOB

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Quote from: jasonjm on October 02, 2014, 02:53:18 PM

Quote from: moriartybitcoin on October 02, 2014, 01:28:22 PM

All the news about Bitcoin is positive, and investors are flocking to the crypto. So why isn't the price going up?

ANSWER: Institutional players are artificially depressing the price through short-selling with a plan of buying LOW. Once they move the hot money into Bitcoin, I expect the price to rapidly jump to $1000+

I used to enjoy these forums, but the intelligence of posts on here has been declining.

how do you suppress the price by short selling bitcoins?

how exactly do you short sell a bitcoin?

there is no central exchange, with paper contracts, derivatives, and such, where you could try "short sell" bitcoin, where bitcoins are settled world wide at end of each day. Maybe some websites or exchanges might offer funky bitcoin futures and such, but at this point you are playing with "fictional" bitcoins, there are no real bitcoins trading in these transactions. The house is merely hoping you go broke before they do.

the only way to move the bitcoin price is to actually sell bitcoin. But to do that first you would have to buy bitcoins if you do not have them.

Therefore its a zero sum game.

so out of a multitude of possible answers, your answer is 100% not one of them.

Various Chinese exchanges allow short selling, as does Bitfinex. What?

jasonjm

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Quote from: moriartybitcoin on October 02, 2014, 01:28:22 PM

All the news about Bitcoin is positive, and investors are flocking to the crypto. So why isn't the price going up?

ANSWER: Institutional players are artificially depressing the price through short-selling with a plan of buying LOW. Once they move the hot money into Bitcoin, I expect the price to rapidly jump to $1000+

I used to enjoy these forums, but the intelligence of posts on here has been declining.

how do you suppress the price by short selling bitcoins?

how exactly do you short sell a bitcoin?

there is no central exchange, with paper contracts, derivatives, and such, where you could try "short sell" bitcoin, where bitcoins are settled world wide at end of each day. Maybe some websites or exchanges might offer funky bitcoin futures and such, but at this point you are playing with "fictional" bitcoins, there are no real bitcoins trading in these transactions. The house is merely hoping you go broke before they do.

the only way to move the bitcoin price is to actually sell bitcoin. But to do that first you would have to buy bitcoins if you do not have them.

Therefore its a zero sum game.

so out of a multitude of possible answers, your answer is 100% not one of them.

RockHound

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Here's a logical answer to your question regarding the Consensus Algorithm and Bitcoin Price Index:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-TLA3j-ic4

mjc

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Available on Kindle

Stick around for a while it rises and falls all the time. People cannot flock to it every day. There is a reason why it goes up and down and its not always the reason you want it to be, would think it to be or what they say it is. It is assuming to watch people post what they think it is.

Topic: very simple question (Read 2544 times)