Topic: Virgin Atlantic Goes Bankrupt, Bailouts? (Read 345 times)

The last bailouts I think was on the financial crisis in 2008 and that move helps a lot of businesses who suffer a lot because of crisis and of course there's a criteria for that and not all dying companies can avail that services from the government.

They legally file for bankruptcy to protect their assets and to ask for the help of the government, and I think the government should really help them. The Airline industries are dying, if there's no tourism and a banned travel will affect them that much, this could be the end for them. I wonder how the airlines companies prepared for the crisis because I believe they should have a reserve fund for the uncertainties like this.

I think this thread discuss how US might wanna go for bailouts on the near future. Will bailouts become more frequent?

It is very first thing if such popular airline is going bankrupt then they will have to support the employees and directorish levels in the first place by getting bailouts from the interested investors.

Same thing is happening in Indian region where government is actually auctioning out military divisions which helps Indian military to produce artillery products. I mean surely this is only for big investors like Ambani group of industries, TATA industries and more.

You never know, VA airline might be taken over by some private investor if things went off the chart.

Well, the pandemic did prevented airlines from making money, people are not flying around as you might imagine which really hurts the companies as well. However it is a hard part to indulge, think about it you are a British company and everything you have is British and money goes there, but the assets are in America and you work with American everything on your job that is in America, so when you want to sell those planes for example you sell it on American soil to American people (probably) which means you have to deal with American laws as well.

I don't know what American airlines will do, not like the people who can buy those assets are rich right now neither, they are not flying people too so everything is really a bit screwed right now, I am not sure what could be done at this point.

Branson is a treasonous money grabber, who belittled the UK, and tried to force us into staying in the EU. He is also a mate of Obama, and tries to manipulate politics to disadvantage the country in favour of his elite banking friends. Freddie Laker that Virgin airlines, so it isn't even a Branson creation. Why should the country on which he turned his back support him after he has milked the airline company?

Probably what most people skip, or only scratch the surface, is about the moral hazard theory:

Source.

That said, the bailouts would make corporations more reckless. One can say COVID is a force-majeure, but corporations should prepare for the worse, just like any other business which receives little or no help from the government.

This is precisely my problem, no one should get a bailout, not banks, Virgin Atlantic or any business for that matter because the moment there is a bailout everyone will want one and every single industry will feel justified to get it, now some may argue that we need to help the air travel industry in these difficult times but the truth is that the demand itself has changed, the travel industry is going to face a lot of problems during the next years even after the pandemic is over.

There has been a massive amount of jobs lost during this year and people are afraid that they may be next so they are not going to travel as much for tourism, and business travel is also going to be very limited as people are going to decide that it is cheaper to have a video conference and close deals that way, this means that the size of the pie is going to get smaller and when that is the case businesses will have to disappear, that is the way the free market economy works and trying to go against this only creates distortions in the markets which will eventually be corrected anyway.

I understand if people feel bailouts are unfair, but it feels unjust from the business side too. When everything was great, workers demand (at least) minimum wage, and the government demand taxes, but when everything suddenly goes south. Everyone throws the businessman under the bus and says, "your problem, not mine."

Source.

Aviations companies are one among the many businesses that are directly affected by the effect of the Coronavirus pandemic to the world. Since there are already several travel bans to those countries that have huge amount of infected cases, many flights are temporarily being cancelled and postponed to keep people safe away from getting infected by the infectious and deadly virus that is up to now still do not have any cure.

Aviation companies are all facing the phase of bankruptcy due to the decreasing demand of people travelling because of the travel ban and implementing health protocols. Providing a bailout on a certain company just to save them from possible bankruptcy would sound unfair for the other existing aviation companies for they are also struggling and making everything to exit this situation. Providing a bailout at the middle of pandemic would mean no sense for they cannot still get back into operation so how come they would need such financial assistance that might be used else where. Also, US government is still facing a financial problem on how they would execute the paying of the stimulus to the people that are also affected by the pandemic which is a lot more important rather than giving a bailout approval just to save an aviation company that is still unidentifiable on when can go back into operation while pandemic is still on and still no vaccine have been proven to end this crisis.

The impact of coronavirus is second to none and one of the most hit businesses is the airline industry and Virgin is not the first airline to fold in recent times. But looking at the impact of those who will be affected, then its ok in my opinion that the government should offer them bailout. It is essential that the impact on the people working there is a key thing and bailout in itself is not free money as people have come to believe rather its a loan with relaxed conditions and at this time, every help is needed in other to help the economy get back on its feet.

I think its a little harsh to judge a business by its capacity to respond in the present crisis. We haven't seen this kind of a situation in a century. You can accept a business to be ready for some sort of change in business secnario, for example, Nokia wasn't ready.You can blame a business for over-leveraging like OYO hotels. Yet, in the present condition, hospitality, tourism and transportation are the hardest hit.  If it was okay to bail-out criminal investment banks, it should be okay to bail out real businesses.
Richard Branson has also been trying to get into the space tourism business. The man is full of vanity for buying islands and his flashy lifestyle but he is a visionary and a good marketer of ideas. If there is nothing he has done wrong in running his business then he deserves a bailout.

Why Virgin Atlantic couldn't receive bailout? What did Richard Branson do?
It's not fair!

https://www.businesstraveller.com/features/these-airlines-have-received-a-bailout/

Essential travel is essential.

This whole "essential vs. non-essential" distinction is pretty upsetting anyway. It's just more of the government picking winners and losers. Imagine being a business owner and being told your doors need to remain closed indefinitely (for years maybe) because the livelihood you chose wasn't important enough!

The real reasons they shouldn't be bailed out: moral hazard (think of all the companies and people that won't get bailed out), plus it's simply unsustainable. See Japan's stagnant growth and mega high debts over the last 3 decades. That's what happens when you use public debt to prop up unprofitable companies.

They will still have to bail them out. Anything that has to do with transportation was badly hit by the coronavirus. I have not been to the airport, but I can tell with the land transportation companies here that nothing is really moving from them since the Coronavirus, although they have started getting back into business a little. When it all started they were all stopped and nothing like public transportation. Most of them wouldn’t be able to pay their staff at this time.

Moreover if they should close, that means a lot of people who are relying on them, their staff, are definitely going to be jobless and that will increase the rate of unemployment, which is not good for the economy.

But you said it yourself, he is a risk taker and if you do that then you can get great rewards as he has done during his life but you need to also accept the risks that comes with it, that is unavoidable, and while some may say that it was impossible for anyone to predict the current crisis that we are facing, and in a way they will be right, at the same time companies are run in a way that tries to get as many profits as possible on the short term without any care for the future and once a crisis hits them they suddenly find themselves overextended and with no capital to face the crisis.

If I'm completely honest I'm not really sorry for those business owners, I understand they're having a really hard time but this is the way the economy should work, only to businesses that are well run and that take precautions and that saved their profits to endure the difficult times ahead should survive, if a business owner no matter how successful he has been in the past does not plan for this then he does not deserve to keep himself in business.

At the end of the day if they didn't have insurance against it, why do they get a bail out? That is what I always wondered, when wall street bankrupted 12 years ago, they were protected and bailed out because if they failed there would be too many people who have invested into those companies that would fail as well and become poor, but I do not get why the government had to pay them yet still not own them.

If I took out a loan from a bank and fail to pay for it, they will end up seizing my house or if it is a business seize my business, so why can't the government do the same for the banks? Just give them money but also take a bit of their stock as well, that way you can pay the tax payers back by lowering taxes thanks to new income from wall street. Same here, if Airlines can't continue and beg money, give them money in exchange of stocks, that would be smarter.

In the 2008 crisis, there were a host of these Investment banks, Insurance players and rating institutions who were all in cahoots. The executives at the top were making millions in bonuses (which many of them would have used to buy bitcoin). Despite all this, they were all bailed out with a "too big to fail" tag and zero prosecutions.

Compare them with Richard Branson who started his first company as a teenager by selling magazines and records. He is a true blood entrepreneur and has added a lot of value over the years to the economy as well as culture in general, not to forget the jobs and good times he gave the people. He had a role to play in the Concorde too, if i am not mistaken.

For his history of risk-taking, hard work and entrepreneurship alone, i think he must be bailed out no matter what people think about it. We need these risk-takers and value creators who build up enterprises through sheer power of will and hard work. The number of people in staff and associated industries who would be saved is itself worth it.

Covid19 has paused several businesses and air transport is on the list of the most affected.
Talking about bankruptcy alarms anyone, several specialized media are mentioning about Chapter 15 of the U.S. Virgin Atlantic Bankruptcy Code.
The airline has stated that it is a process to keep it flying.

Virgin Atlantic is a British company. Evening Standard magazine has a quote that applies to situations like this:


Autonomous driving and flying technology is very niche right now so even if some automated flight company manages to make a plane that's safe to use, they have the second challenge of convincing people that they are safe to use. Tesla's having trouble doing exactly that because a single crash undermines public perception of their safety and causes a large scare.

when is this, the year 2050?

just look at what happened with self-driving cars---the tech shortcomings and never ending delays. even when they do arrive, half of people say they will never ride in one. i'm sure that translates to airplanes too.

re the airline industry, i say fuck 'em. let the strong companies absorb the weak, keep what workers on they can, and let the chips fall where they may. executives have been paying themselves obscene salaries and shareholders pocketing huge profits for many years---why would they deserve a bailout now? let them pony up their own capital, or otherwise let their company go the way of the dodo.

I'm sure they still have a lot of assets on their disposal that they can forego without hurting much of their allowed operations in the meantime. If they don't see this as a solution then IMO, they shouldn't be entitled for a bailout since they can still remain afloat. If other airlines smaller than them can endure the suffering of this pandemic, I don't see a reason why they themselves cannot. As the world plunges towards uncertainty brought forth by this pandemic, here they are, asking for help to not go out of business, and a top priority at that while the rest of the population try to make ends meet, day by day. I understand the sentiment about losing an airline company and its possible effect to the economy, but there are loads of them operating still, and even with reduced capacity and reduced number of passengers, how are they still up and running?

This bothers me, those companies are incredibly capitalist when they are getting profits and they want to pay as low taxes as possible and receive all kind of perks and do not care when the little guy is the one suffering, but when they are the ones dealt a bad hand they immediately leave all of that behind and ask for the support of the government to help cover their mistakes.

If they were not prepared for a black swan even then that is their fault and they should pay the consequences of their lack of foresight, yes this means losing jobs and letting companies go through bankruptcy but if we do not let this to happen and suffer small crisis from time to time the next big crisis we face is going to be many times worse than the crisis we saw in 2008.

The aviation industry requires large operational costs so cash flow is also very influential. Although air transportation is a bridge of the economy, the government's decision to save one airline industry will spread to other airlines. Even if this sector collapses, then the economy will not run optimally, but I don't think there is a need for a bailout policy that only needs to be done because the business climate or increasing airline revenues will be very difficult in this situation. As long as the vaccine has not yet been found, people's interest in traveling certainly decreases and all pandemic protocols actually make operational costs go up and ticket prices will be more expensive which certainly adds to people's reluctance. The potential of the aviation industry survived very little before the vaccine was discovered and the pandemic ended.

In fact, if the aviation industry does not survive, a gap will occur, prices will differ significantly in each region. In addition, mobilization will also be hampered and will have an impact on other economic sectors such as tourism. Transportation is the economic heart of society. Its sustainability is very helpful in achieving development goals. Smooth transportation can increase investment and economic equality, maintaining the aviation industry in the midst of a pandemic must be considered but not a priority.

Some things to consider here:

- Airlines are not returning money in some places , they are expecting the people to actually wait till the flight resumes and giving them merits

- Some Airlines are working with the Government and some big personalities in evacuating citizens stranded abroad and they are charging *2 the normal fare , those airlines might survive the big picture.

- There are many countries who are thinking of resuming the flights soon , maybe the domestic one's right now. But travel bans are slowly getting better .

- Some countries are shipping cargo internationally like : when Donald Trump Asked Ukraine to help US , those airlines might survive somehow

* Unfortunately this is how the situation is in every sector and therefore they cannot just ask the airlines to bail out since it would set up a bad example at the same time they might give them certain period of time in which they are supposed to pay the amount due. But total bailout is not something that should ever happen for anyone.

It doesn't sound like there's any real plan for a government bailout based on what that article says.  Even if Virgin Atlantic took bailout money, the amount would be nowhere near what the banks took in 2008-09, so I don't think this is a huge deal. 

Airlines are suffering right now because of COVID-19, but as I keep saying this is a temporary situation.  Bankrupt airlines can still remain in business without taking a penny from the government.

They're not going to get bailed out IMO.  What I'm more worried about is how the US government is going to pay for all of these stimulus checks.  Somebody has to foot the bill for those, and while I haven't heard many complaints about them, they're still an issue that's going to have to be addressed somewhere down the road.

The fact that those sectors would likely not return to normal operations soon could also be an argument for not bailing then out. They will not be reviving or restoring jobs to vital workers as we are still in a pandemic, so what exactly would be the result of funds pumped in, would it be to keep the company barely afloat while we await the global situation? If so, they could be filing for such grants sometime soon.

Looks very like a large cooperation exploiting its importance for financial gain. This leads to a much more distorted market system, with smaller businesses getting the short stick.

It's not just Virgin Atlantic but a lot of airlines around the world is going bankrupt due to the current pandemic situation. In my country, all airlines have stopped paying salaries to their employees just to save themselves to fly through this tough situation. Travel & tourism industry is also in a bad situation. In a nutshell, every industry related to public travel, is hit by the pandemic. Virgin Atlantic is no exception but it is sad to see one of the major international airline is going bankrupt. Thousands of jobs will be lost worldwide - direct or indirect!

I think that government should come forward to bailout such companies related to travel & tourism because there's no guarantee that the situation will normalize soon. Doesn't look very plausible. It may change quickly if an effective vaccine can be found but that doesn't look plausible either! More pain is waiting for the stakeholders for these industries if governments don't come forward!

It's quite common for airlines to operate under very thin margins. Under these pretense, it's also important to remember that none of the airlines on a woldwide level were prepared for a pandemic. Many were betting on low fuel prices to continue and actually went on buying sprees for bigger and newer jets, as well as other investments.

For an airliner of the size of Atlantic, I think there will be some sort of bailout. Or at the very least there will be some leniency in terms of how the rights to foreign debitors are treated like in this case. But even in the worst case a bailout wouldn't bee too unlikely. Virtually every country has helped its biggest airlines in some way or another. Be it via legislation or even through direct funding.

At least I hope after the irresponsible of certain airlines that preceded, that any assistance given by states will also result in stock. Airlines in the past had been getting favorable treatment, more so than almost any other industry by the state. By essentially being provided with free loans. Italy in my opinion did the right thing by nationalizing Allitalia instead of giving it free money. Hopefully if things go south for Virgin Atlantic the state will get out of the transaction with something to keep.

No, I don't think that governments should bailout the airline industry. We have that going on here in Croatia for  many years now, government constantly pumping  money in Croatia Airlines with no effect. They just got used to "free money", they don't care whether their business model has any sense at all.

No, I don't think so. Investing in(and running) businesses has risks in the first place, and they failed to see(though I don't blame them) a potential black swan event that could completely halt their business, so they should pay for the consequences. It's not like Virgin Atlantic is an essential business in the first place anyway.

That's why Branson got lots of criticism because he wanted British Gov to support the airline. AFAIK, the British Gov didn't want to do the bailout. #claps

In the aforementioned article:

So they file bankruptcy to do the reorg.

it is not fair, but it will be done

nobody wants to think about average Joe when they are sending tax-payers money to big companies for bail-out, and that will probably stay as it is, no matter who is on the top to decide
i also do not think that it should not be done, especially since airline business is in trouble that will not disappear tomorrow or next year, this could be a decision making point for airlines and trains, in train favor, Europe is already thinking about building fast-train tracks throughout Europe, and USA should head on the same direction IMHO

No, equity holders should eat the losses and companies like Virgin should be reorganized in bankruptcy.

If airlines are so unprofitable now (and for all we know, this COVID-19 thing is here for good and this is the new norm), the only sustainable thing to do is let the industry scale down. Layoffs, bankruptcies, mergers, consolidation, etc. Propping up zombie companies is what caused Japan's Lost Decade. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decade_(Japan)#Causes

I'm also pretty unsympathetic to airlines:


https://www.ft.com/content/97100b6a-6857-11ea-800d-da70cff6e4d3

Interesting. I've read not long ago on the new steps forward made by the sister company "Virgin Galactic".

Clearly the airline businesses are going bad now and if they are not helped the Americans (especially) may have problems when the things get back to normal.
But I think that Virgin Whatever made quite a lot of money in their history and it's not fair for the average Joe to use his money just to help some rich company owners remain rich.

They will. The government already bailed out Delta, United Airlines and others. It's an election year and any job that can be saved with tax money will be saved. What it looks like after the election is a different story. The 2008 bank bailouts led to Bitcoin (as you know, Satoshi pointed this out in his first block with the Times article). We can only hope that the whole bailout orgies around the globe will again mean a big push for crypto currencies.

If he or any stakeholders have arge amounts of cash or loan able assets then why should they get a bailout?

I think a few airlines in the UK got funds at the start of the crisis to try to keep them going, if virgin were one of them it'd be interesting to see what they've actually done with that to not survive where other airlines can - surely that means they're badly run and should be left to fail...

Edit: what happened to this https://metro.co.uk/2020/07/14/virgin-atlantic-secures-1-2billion-bailout-survive-pandemic-12988507/
Fuck 'em.

Source: Reuters

Without bailouts, perhaps the airline industry would be dead, and thousands would go unemployed. Then, it might affects hospitality, tourism, taxi/uber services.

Should the government bailouts the airline industry? What will be the future for the airline industry post coronavirus pandemic?