Visualizing bitcoin as the "Planet Money"

theymos

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Quote from: Quip on February 21, 2011, 11:22:36 AM

I could've sworn that there was a way of uniquely identifying coins.

EDIT: Would it be possible to trace each coin backwards along the blockchain to it's point of origin, and then plot their positions based on the time they were generated?

You can't unambiguously resolve multiple inputs:

Code:

50 in--\__100 out
50 in--/

The only solution is to arbitrarily choose some ordering scheme, as Gavin suggested:

Quote from: Gavin Andresen on January 25, 2011, 07:13:09 PM

Quote from: theymos on January 25, 2011, 03:19:55 PM

You can number generations that way, but once any multi-output transactions take place, any numbering is lost. "Which output got bitcoin #5"?

That's easy-- if #5 is the lowest ordinal piece of dust, then it goes to the first txout. Etc.

It's all arbitrary but deterministic, and all recorded in the block chain, so you could define rules to trace every .0000000001-of-a-bitcoin forward through transactions.

Quip

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I could've sworn that there was a way of uniquely identifying coins.

EDIT: Would it be possible to trace each coin backwards along the blockchain to it's point of origin, and then plot their positions based on the time they were generated?

bitcool

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Quote from: TiagoTiago on February 20, 2011, 11:11:33 PM

Wait, there is no way to know which coins are the ones you got, you only know the amount? Balls, without serial numbers on them there is no data to use to transform into points on the surface of Earth Sad

Unfortunately, that's what I have been trying to say.
Maybe bitcoin v2 will have this feature added.

TiagoTiago

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Firstbits.com/1fg4i :)

Wait, there is no way to know which coins are the ones you got, you only know the amount? Balls, without serial numbers on them there is no data to use to transform into points on the surface of Earth Sad

TiagoTiago

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Firstbits.com/1fg4i :)

Perhaps the algo could be a space filling curve, like Z order curves or Hilbert cuver , to map between the coin data (One dimensional? Doesn't matter, the curves can be used to map an N dimensions array into a 1 dimensions array and vice versa) and the latitude/longitude coordinates (two dimensional)

http://corte.si/posts/code/hilbert/portrait/index.html
http://corte.si/projects/geohilbert/index.html

bitcool

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Quote from: ItFromBit on February 20, 2011, 08:57:36 PM

Hello, newbie here, this is so cool!

Have you thought about using Marble?
http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/Marble/GeoGraphicsViewOverview

that will be one useful tool to use for mapping bitdust IDs to geocoordinates. but since all those existing bitcoins in circulation do not carry ID info, I don't expect this to become feasible anytime soon.

ItFromBit

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Hello, newbie here, this is so cool!

Have you thought about using Marble?
http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/Marble/GeoGraphicsViewOverview

bitcool

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Quote from: TiagoTiago on February 20, 2011, 06:25:16 PM

Once the coin to geocordinate algorithm has been figured out, i imagine it shouldn't be difficult to use Google Earth overlays to visualize the data.

That will be a very intuitive and appealing concept to ordinary people. I still prefer treating all earth's surface equally, instead of trying to figure out which is land, which is ocean.

But to support this algorithm, it will require some fundamental changes and it will increase the complexity of the system. Using real world analogy, in current bitcoin system there's a gold "pool" with 21 million ounces gold in there, each btc address is a warehouse receipt against this pool, it only tells you how much you own but not what particular gold ounce/bullion you own.

To track every 1E-8 ounce of gold, more information need to be added to each transaction, new mechanisms are needed, such as uniqueness ownership validation, bitdust ID clumping and consolidation etc. There will be a global database recording the ownership of all "bitdust" in existence.

Besides for the purpose of visualization, I am still trying to figure out what other benefit this feature can bring about. Otherwise it may actually be a step backward. In today's world, financial institutions transact billions dollars each day without needing to know the serial numbers on those phantom dollar bills.

Quip

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oh, good idea!

TiagoTiago

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Firstbits.com/1fg4i :)

Once the coin to geocordinate algorithm has been figured out, i imagine it shouldn't be difficult to use Google Earth overlays to visualize the data.

satamusic

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yes.

i pledge 0.01btc to this

btw Planet Money is a nice NPR podcast, been listening for some time, check it out at http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/

Quip

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I would love to see this made.

bitcool

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To me there are two fundamentally different approaches to digital currency: ownership-based and abstraction-of-tangible-goods.

The truth in bitcoin is that, there's no coin, there's only bitOwned, bitLedger, or bitEnvelop.... Bitcoin cannot exist without an address, while an address can exist with zero "coin" in it.

I've been thinking about gold standard in digital age -- be it gold/silver/diamond/carbon/land/whatever standard -- for a long time, but never realized the solution can be so simple and elegant.

Gavin Andresen

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Quote from: theymos on January 25, 2011, 03:19:55 PM

Quote from: Gavin Andresen on January 25, 2011, 01:06:35 PM

If you get sent 500 bitcoins, they can all be traced back to generation transactions, so you "own" a bunch of little pieces of land in bitcoin-world.

You can number generations that way, but once any multi-output transactions take place, any numbering is lost. "Which output got bitcoin #5"?

That's easy-- if #5 is the lowest ordinal piece of dust, then it goes to the first txout. Etc.

It's all arbitrary but deterministic, and all recorded in the block chain, so you could define rules to trace every .0000000001-of-a-bitcoin forward through transactions.

bitcool

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Quote from: ribuck on January 25, 2011, 05:02:30 PM

The Bitcoin protocol only prevents double-spending. It doesn't say anything about double-selling.

The Brooklyn Bridge you have (or I should say you had) IS the bitcoin, remember? Grin

so technically, you were just trying to swap some bitcoin-world real estate, which doesn't make sense b/c all real estate was created equal in that world.

bitcool

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Quote from: LZ on January 25, 2011, 10:05:33 AM

bitcool, it is a brilliant idea! I really like it! Cheesy

thanks, I am glad some one like it.

bitcool

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Quote from: bitcool on January 25, 2011, 04:03:32 PM

...

Then the amount of information carried with a bitcoin can become HUGE, no question about it.

Actually, it doesn't need to be. Each "bit-dust" can be represented by a 16-digit number (e.g. 20,000,000.000 000 01)
Numbers end with zero means they are blocks of "consecutive dusts"
The sequence-to-geocoordinate mapping can be a global lookup table stored anywhere in the system.

Looks like there's a ray of hope after all.

ribuck

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Quote from: bitcool on January 25, 2011, 04:12:31 PM

A quick check with HAL9000 shows you already sold Brooklyn Bridge to someone else

The Bitcoin protocol only prevents double-spending. It doesn't say anything about double-selling.

bitcool

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Quote from: ribuck on January 25, 2011, 03:11:07 PM

Delaware is 6452 square kilometers, or 909 bitcoins. My rough visual estimate is that 35% of Delaware lies north of Dover, so you're looking at around 318 coins.

PS: If you want to own the Brooklyn Bridge too, I can sell you that for another hundred and fifty.

A quick check with HAL9000 shows you already sold Brooklyn Bridge to someone else, you are caught red-handed. Angry

bitcool

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Quote from: theymos on January 25, 2011, 03:19:55 PM

You can number generations that way, but once any multi-output transactions take place, any numbering is lost. "Which output got bitcoin #5"?

Here's something can be done to make it happen:

1) Initially every bit-dust inherit this information from the coin, once a bit-crumbs get separated from the coin, it carries such information with it.

2) All transactions should be done in a way to minimize the separation of any bit-crumbs.

3) Logic can be added to make the bit-crumbs have a tendency to regroup back together.

In physical world, a gold atom is the minimum identifiable unit of the metal. Like a "bit-dust", if a gold atom is assigned a unique set of numbers (geocoordinates) when it is mined, no matter how many times the gold coin get melted and minted, the information will always be there.

Then the amount of information carried with a bitcoin can become HUGE, no question about it.

Topic: Visualizing bitcoin as the "Planet Money" (Read 5186 times)