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Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 18347. (Read 26709821 times)

legendary
Activity: 2842
Merit: 1511
Zanetackett refuses to dismiss the haircut route, but says any haircut estimations (like 63%) are false. Poloniex got hacked for a relatively small amount, and still took forever to pay everyone back. How much does Bitfinex earn in fees, and how long would it take to pay everyone back out of them?

Well, a long time. Say roughly 0.1% fees on 200K per week equals about 10K BTC per year. 15% cut of lending fees would net around 1-2 million per year in USD also (about 3K BTC per year).


I scan my actual paper-and-toner wallets, copy them to multiple encrypted microSD cards, hide them well in multiple offsite stashes, and then securely shred the original files and tear up the original printed wallets and flush them down the toilet.


Flash memory has limited data retention, have you taken precautions against this?
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1087
https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/4vtv1m/bitfinex_down_due_to_bitcoin_security_breach/d64ow17

socialized losses for bitcoin and loans to btc/usd positions. guess we'll know the full facts in a few hours.
member
Activity: 115
Merit: 10
Huh

I didn't read your post but I assume it is some kind of twisted logic on why you let others hold your BTC for you. Well, you did that, and now some of your BTC are gone.

You were derided repeatedly for keeping all your coins on exchanges... and now you've paid a cost for that. Either you learn a lesson from this and do a little research on how to properly secure your own keys, or, you don't. It is was your money.  Undecided

If you at least do not take time to read my relatively short post, then I am not going to take time to respond to your stupid-ass repetitive trolling comments, Lambie, aka... you fucking goofball.    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes    Cheesy Cheesy

Listening to my "stupid-ass repetitive trolling comments" about using exchanges as banks would have saved you money, i.e. you'd have more money than you do today, remember that.
legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 11416
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
[edited out]

I didn't read your post but I assume it is some kind of twisted logic on why you let others hold your BTC for you. Well, you did that, and now some of your BTC are gone.

You were derided repeatedly for keeping all your coins on exchanges... and now you've paid a cost for that. Either you learn a lesson from this and do a little research on how to properly secure your own keys, or, you don't. It is was your money.  Undecided

If you at least do not take time to read my relatively short post, then I am not going to take time to respond to your stupid-ass repetitive trolling comments, Lambie, aka... you fucking goofball.    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes    Cheesy Cheesy
member
Activity: 115
Merit: 10
Sure, there may be some better ways and better systems to accomplish the same thing,  yet at the same time, the whole BTC infrastructure is developing and evolving and in that regard, a lot of this exchange activity is inevitable...

Now I agree with you on a personal level there are ways to preserve and secure value, but if everyone did the same as you, including institutions, who the hell knows where bitcoin's price would be or if bitcoin would be as developed as it is.

In any event, as an individual acting in the ecosystem, each of us can choose an approach balancing risk and reward that hopefully fits with his/her personal situation.

Fair enough, but at this stage I'll be selfish and think of my own security first.  Smiley

Nothing wrong with that... ... Part of the rationale behind efficient market theories is for folks to act in their own self-interests, and to consider what they believe to be their own self-interests from their own perspective. Of course they may get it wrong from time to time, but still.... 

Kind of related to this whole matter, we have quite a few posts in this thread in which posters are attempting to lecture other folks about what they believe to be in the other person's interest or in the interest of folks who have funds on bitfinex as if they know what is in the self-interests of those bitfinex account holders.  That's all fine and dandy, if you happen to have enough information about the other guy's situation.

On the other hand, there may be some guys who may have some unrealistic expectations of wanting to have their cake and eat it too.  the balance is not always going to be clear... Bitfinex does have a duty to communicate about this matter and they have a duty to the users of their system, yet at the same time, we continue to kind of shoot in the dark regarding what is actually going on, what happened and what the path forward is going to be.  Bitfinex agents are surely weighing their options in order to figure out how to deal with this matter in ways to carry out their duties to their customers while weighing the feasibility of their business model and security practices (that is to the extent that they may not be totally scamming, which seems to be a low possibility, even though the nicest of folks may turn into scammers, if they realize that the scammy option is the most feasible under the current circumstances). 

I didn't read your post but I assume it is some kind of twisted logic on why you let others hold your BTC for you. Well, you did that, and now some of your BTC are gone.

You were derided repeatedly for keeping all your coins on exchanges... and now you've paid a cost for that. Either you learn a lesson from this and do a little research on how to properly secure your own keys, or, you don't. It is was your money.  Undecided
legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 11416
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
Sure, there may be some better ways and better systems to accomplish the same thing,  yet at the same time, the whole BTC infrastructure is developing and evolving and in that regard, a lot of this exchange activity is inevitable...

Now I agree with you on a personal level there are ways to preserve and secure value, but if everyone did the same as you, including institutions, who the hell knows where bitcoin's price would be or if bitcoin would be as developed as it is.

In any event, as an individual acting in the ecosystem, each of us can choose an approach balancing risk and reward that hopefully fits with his/her personal situation.

Fair enough, but at this stage I'll be selfish and think of my own security first.  Smiley

Nothing wrong with that... ... Part of the rationale behind efficient market theories is for folks to act in their own self-interests, and to consider what they believe to be their own self-interests from their own perspective. Of course they may get it wrong from time to time, but still.... 

Kind of related to this whole matter, we have quite a few posts in this thread in which posters are attempting to lecture other folks about what they believe to be in the other person's interest or in the interest of folks who have funds on bitfinex as if they know what is in the self-interests of those bitfinex account holders.  That's all fine and dandy, if you happen to have enough information about the other guy's situation.

On the other hand, there may be some guys who may have some unrealistic expectations of wanting to have their cake and eat it too.  the balance is not always going to be clear... Bitfinex does have a duty to communicate about this matter and they have a duty to the users of their system, yet at the same time, we continue to kind of shoot in the dark regarding what is actually going on, what happened and what the path forward is going to be.  Bitfinex agents are surely weighing their options in order to figure out how to deal with this matter in ways to carry out their duties to their customers while weighing the feasibility of their business model and security practices (that is to the extent that they may not be totally scamming, which seems to be a low possibility, even though the nicest of folks may turn into scammers, if they realize that the scammy option is the most feasible under the current circumstances). 
sr. member
Activity: 295
Merit: 250
https://twitter.com/btcWhaleclub/status/761330711165100032

dunno how true this is but here you go. bitfinex plan to issue some type of coin to pay dividends on future bitfinex profits and poloniex are gonna trade it. looks like they'll be back in business soon if this is the real deal.

I thought they lost less than half the coins, so why the 63% haircut? I wouldn't be surprised if they did try to go down this route, however. When Poloniex got hacked for 10-15% they did similarly, with a haircut and then gradual reimbursement from their trading fees. Running fractional reserve, in contract, would just cause a run on withdrawals.

Zanetackett refuses to dismiss the haircut route, but says any haircut estimations (like 63%) are false. Poloniex got hacked for a relatively small amount, and still took forever to pay everyone back. How much does Bitfinex earn in fees, and how long would it take to pay everyone back out of them?

https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/4vtv1m/bitfinex_down_due_to_bitcoin_security_breach/d64magf

Quote
So you're confirming that there are no plans for a haircut of any kind?

https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/4vtv1m/bitfinex_down_due_to_bitcoin_security_breach/d64m7qd

Quote
No. I'm saying that any haircut estimations are false.
legendary
Activity: 2842
Merit: 1511
https://twitter.com/btcWhaleclub/status/761330711165100032

dunno how true this is but here you go. bitfinex plan to issue some type of coin to pay dividends on future bitfinex profits and poloniex are gonna trade it. looks like they'll be back in business soon if this is the real deal.

I thought they lost less than half the coins, so why the 63% haircut? I wouldn't be surprised if they did try to go down this route, however. When Poloniex got hacked for 10-15% they did similarly, with a haircut and then gradual reimbursement from their trading fees. Running fractional reserve, in contract, would just cause a run on withdrawals.
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1087
I think it's probably total junk. there's so many rumors flying around that people are having fun fabricating things. we'll see. they'll have to come out with some kind of answer relatively soon. i'll be surprised if this is it.
legendary
Activity: 4242
Merit: 5039
You're never too old to think young.
i like this idea - https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/aug/03/cash-handouts-are-best-way-to-boost-growth-say-economists

if they're gonna take us all down the tubes then we may as well receive some free cash to blow as well, right?

people also have to keep in mind that all this bullshit doesn't create real growth but nominal growth.

Bread and circuses.
sr. member
Activity: 295
Merit: 250
https://twitter.com/btcWhaleclub/status/761330711165100032

dunno how true this is but here you go. bitfinex plan to issue some type of coin to pay dividends on future bitfinex profits and poloniex are gonna trade it. looks like they'll be back in business soon if this is the real deal.

Zanetackett says the Bitfinex site might be back up in view balance only mode by the end of today EST, although that probably means by tomorrow. He's also talking about making an update of where everything stands, but he's refusing to discuss reimbursing customers until after the site's back up.

I doubt we will find out if that tweet is true until after Bitfinex is online again.

https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/4w2osg/daily_discussion_thursday_august_04_2016/d64fayy

Quote
I'm not sure if we'll be able to get it up today but we're trying as hard as we can. As it is getting late i'll try to see if i can get an update of where everything stands and make another post updating everyone with where things stand for now.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4vtuxo/bitfinex_security_breach_trading_will_be_halted/d6481sb

Quote
We're planning on getting it up today EST.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
https://twitter.com/btcWhaleclub/status/761330711165100032

dunno how true this is but here you go. bitfinex plan to issue some type of coin to pay dividends on future bitfinex profits and poloniex are gonna trade it. looks like they'll be back in business soon if this is the real deal.
Interesting way to offshoot this incident they had. To use another exchange to get their crediability back in order. I don't know if it is going to fly though but it is worth a shot cause they have nothing more to lose, in the customer's confidence that is.  Wink
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
i like this idea - https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/aug/03/cash-handouts-are-best-way-to-boost-growth-say-economists

if they're gonna take us all down the tubes then we may as well receive some free cash to blow as well, right?

people also have to keep in mind that all this bullshit doesn't create real growth but nominal growth.

wow some macro-economic discussion, analysis and healthy cynicism on this thread ... amaze me!!  Cheesy

when people realize its all bullshit and nominal growth is not real growth then money-printing (in all it's forms) stops working since the nominal (fake) growth is designed to fool people into thinking there is real growth and act on that falsehood to create the real growth ... it's a mirage designed to spook the herd into spending, working, etc, running on the hamster wheel faster
legendary
Activity: 4242
Merit: 5039
You're never too old to think young.
Exactly.

It's pretty much where it was this morning.
sr. member
Activity: 295
Merit: 250


from a reddit post

Is that saying Bitcoin is dead and is heading nowhere but down?

From Bitcoinity



If Bitcoin is dead why has it bounced back to $580? Shouldn't there only be dump after dump until it's back below $1?

Its price is volatile today but its staying above $500, and keeps testing the high $500s.

Bullish
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1087
https://twitter.com/btcWhaleclub/status/761330711165100032

dunno how true this is but here you go. bitfinex plan to issue some type of coin to pay dividends on future bitfinex profits and poloniex are gonna trade it. looks like they'll be back in business soon if this is the real deal.
legendary
Activity: 4242
Merit: 5039
You're never too old to think young.
Sure, there may be some better ways and better systems to accomplish the same thing,  yet at the same time, the whole BTC infrastructure is developing and evolving and in that regard, a lot of this exchange activity is inevitable...

Now I agree with you on a personal level there are ways to preserve and secure value, but if everyone did the same as you, including institutions, who the hell knows where bitcoin's price would be or if bitcoin would be as developed as it is.

In any event, as an individual acting in the ecosystem, each of us can choose an approach balancing risk and reward that hopefully fits with his/her personal situation.

Fair enough, but at this stage I'll be selfish and think of my own security first.  Smiley
legendary
Activity: 4242
Merit: 5039
You're never too old to think young.
I would say prudent is the proper word when taking the necessary measures to secure one's coins. I use similar methods. The key being that the keys never touch a networked machine. Oh, and plenty of copies. No need for physical loss of your storage media to result in an actual loss when you can make copies of your money! Smiley

Indeed. That's the beauty of Bitcoin. You can make as many copies as you want.

I scan my actual paper-and-toner wallets, copy them to multiple encrypted microSD cards, hide them well in multiple offsite stashes, and then securely shred the original files and tear up the original printed wallets and flush them down the toilet.

I retain a few printed wallets with only a few satoshis in each in case I want to run out to an ATM and add coins to them without the time and hassle of firing up the secure machine and printing them up. Once I've verified that the transaction has gone through, I flush the new paper as it's already backed up in multiple offsite locations.

It may be a little more work than keeping them in an internet accessible device or on an exchange but it's worth it. You cant afford the compromise security on something worth so much.

That said, I do keep about a half coin split between my android devices in case I run short of pocket cash or want to make an online purchase.

Luckily, there are several 24 hour BTC ATMs in Toronto.

legendary
Activity: 1844
Merit: 1338
XXXVII Fnord is toast without bread
Looks like everything is functioning according to plan...



legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 11416
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
Once again, my heart goes out to all those who lost coins at Finex

Your have a kinder heart than I.

My heart goes out to all those Bitcoiners who, after countless exchange failures and hacks, understood the risks of holding large IOUs with third parties, yet still had to watch their asset drop in value as the market priced in (is pricing in) those events. (Of course some will argue this was going to happen to the market anyway.)

The unfortunate thing about society is that everyone has to take the bad along with the good, and when stupid people get together and fuck shit up, everyone pays the price. Perhaps I'm cold hearted, or even a pessimist, but I don't understand this forgiveness when everyone has to bear the burden of the irresponsible.

To be clear, while shitty things do happen quite a lot in bitcoinlandia, I'm speaking more generally here, and these types of "everyone pays" events happen all the time in the grand scheme of things.

As much as I wanted to say "I told you so" after repeatedly posting about the stupidity of keeping coins or even fiat on hackable internet exchanges and the even more mind-numbingly foolish practice of margin trading in something as easily manipulable as Bitcoin, I figured the fools who lost coins had suffered enough.

Some of these idiots made snide comments about my paying a premium to buy my coins from "vending machines", as if buying fiat from their precious bank ATMs was any different.

I tried to explain that the reasonably small extra fee over the cost of fiat transfers and exchange commissions was a small price to pay for the convenience, speed, anonymity, and most importantly security of buying from local BTC ATMs. I learned a 50BTC lesson from MtGox. No more internet exposure for any of my bitcoins ever again. My private keys are private.

The coins I bought yesterday from a fully anonymous ATM went into a paper wallet I generated on a computer and printer that had never been connected to the internet and were incapable of being connected or hacked (no wifi, bluetooth nor NIC cable).

Call me paranoid if you want but at my age I prefer to call it being prudent. Seems in this case I was right.

Damn now you've made me sound like I'm smugly saying "I told you so" even though I didn't want to.  Cheesy
_______

As for all of us bearing the cost of other people's stupidity, I figure it's just temporary and as my morning post pointed out, we're already back to where we might have been considering the previous couple of days' price decline.

I didn't see it as a loss in the fiat price of my coins, I saw it as a buying opportunity. What's that old saw about making lemonade out of life's lemons?


Jimbo:

You seem like a fairly reasonable guy, and for that matter, you likely are going to concede that the whole bitcoin ecosystem is a diverse place, and in order for it to have value, there needs to be diverse activities, including the including of third party risk which comes through exchanges.

Sure, there may be some better ways and better systems to accomplish the same thing,  yet at the same time, the whole BTC infrastructure is developing and evolving and in that regard, a lot of this exchange activity is inevitable...

Now I agree with you on a personal level there are ways to preserve and secure value, but if everyone did the same as you, including institutions, who the hell knows where bitcoin's price would be or if bitcoin would be as developed as it is.

In any event, as an individual acting in the ecosystem, each of us can choose an approach balancing risk and reward that hopefully fits with his/her personal situation.
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