Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 18976.

Fatman3001

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Make Bitcoin glow with ENIAC

Quote from: JimboToronto on April 01, 2016, 08:15:16 PM

Quote from: bargainbin on April 01, 2016, 07:40:24 PM

President Putin’s counselor and advisor on the internet, German Klimenko, or a Canadian uᴉoɔʇᴉq monomaniac calling himself adamstgBit...
Who to believe?

I'll take the Canadian over the Russian any day.

The smartest Russian, Vitalik Buterin grew up and was educated in Canada. Coincidence?

Mind you, he was smart enough to take his (and other people's) money to Switzerland.

Klimenko? He's just toadying up to KGB boy.

o rly

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigori_Perelman

Beyond that, yes Klimenko is a siloviki toad. Whenever they speak down stuff it means it's powerful stuff.

dumbfbrankings

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* dumbfbrankings kicks aside a heavily taxed canadian smirnoff bottle.

The halvening is coming gentlement. 420 blaze it. Cool

adamstgBit

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adamstgBit

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Quote from: r0ach on April 01, 2016, 11:45:00 PM

Quote from: adamstgBit on April 01, 2016, 11:37:31 PM

i think i get it....
i just feel the line you draw between decentralized and distributed is very thin, and almost not worth considering, in the end both systems solve the double spend problem...

It gets more technical because the open entropy aspect is the only reason much of the consensus system works. For instance, in PoS, a large holder can cause permanent preemption and just shut the chain down forever. There is no such thing as "forever" in an open entropy system for him to do that.

There is also no real fault or state recovery in PoS because you have to reference the parts that have already failed in order to continue. Like I said, the concept of things begin stuck in a state of "forever" is usually a negative in terms of security. Also, like I said earlier, you need native tokens to utilize the system, and since the system has a decentralized exchange (mining), then anyone can acquire them at fair market price. For a system of closed entropy, the coins are shut off and it's basically a system of permanent extortion by whoever owns them, assuming the network effect is able to force others into the system.

i hear you, understanding is more than hearing tho....
i feel as tho given a blackboard and 20 mins face to face,
you can make me really understand just how flawed POS really is.
if anything for the highlighted reason above the POS system doesn't make for "good money"

anyway....

r0ach

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Quote from: adamstgBit on April 01, 2016, 11:37:31 PM

i think i get it....
i just feel the line you draw between decentralized and distributed is very thin, and almost not worth considering, in the end both systems solve the double spend problem...

It gets more technical because the open entropy aspect is the only reason much of the consensus system works. For instance, in PoS, a large holder can cause permanent preemption and just shut the chain down forever. There is no such thing as "forever" in an open entropy system for him to do that.

There is also no real fault or state recovery in PoS because you have to reference the parts that have already failed in order to continue. Like I said, the concept of things begin stuck in a state of "forever" is usually a negative in terms of security. Also, like I said earlier, you need native tokens to utilize the system, and since the system has a decentralized exchange (mining), then anyone can acquire them at fair market price. For a system of closed entropy, the coins are shut off and it's basically a system of permanent extortion by whoever owns them, assuming the network effect is able to force others into the system.

adamstgBit

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Quote from: r0ach on April 01, 2016, 11:29:39 PM

Quote from: adamstgBit on April 01, 2016, 11:22:18 PM

being fully honest, i have simply dont understand what your saying, maybe my view is too high level. to me you either prove you computing power (POW) or you prove your economic power ( POS)

i think we'd need a face to face discussion with a blackboard to understand your point.

Do you understand that the act of mining itself is technically a decentralized exchange? Most people don't know Bitcoin has a decentralized exchange, but that's exactly what it is. It's a permanent decentralized exchange because the block reward is subsidized by transaction fees so you can always go straight to the tree itself to pluck off coins. If you remove this peg, it becomes a closed entropy system and is no longer decentralized, but only a distributed, permissioned ledger.

i think i get it....
i just feel the line you draw between decentralized and distributed is very thin, and almost not worth considering, in the end both systems solve the double spend problem...

POC - Proof of Capacity seemed interesting, but in the end i trust the try tested and true method of POW.

adamstgBit

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Quote from: Chef Ramsay on April 01, 2016, 11:21:21 PM

Quote from: adamstgBit on April 01, 2016, 11:12:31 PM

Quote from: Chef Ramsay on April 01, 2016, 11:11:48 PM

Quote from: adamstgBit on April 01, 2016, 09:15:23 PM

Smirnoff or 5 o'clock?

Smirnoff

how many? A friend said, i never stop at one nor go past eleven. Heard 5 o'clock makes the next day start pretty unfavorably.

i lost count, its time for me to stop.
my GF came home and took the bottle away ( on my last drink )
god( the universe of organized randomness ) bless her soul.

r0ach

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Quote from: adamstgBit on April 01, 2016, 11:22:18 PM

being fully honest, i have simply dont understand what your saying, maybe my view is too high level. to me you either prove you computing power (POW) or you prove your economic power ( POS)

i think we'd need a face to face discussion with a blackboard to understand your point.

Do you understand that the act of mining itself is technically a decentralized exchange? Most people don't know Bitcoin has a decentralized exchange, but that's exactly what it is. It's a permanent decentralized exchange because the block reward is subsidized by transaction fees so you can always go straight to the tree itself to pluck off coins. If you remove this peg, it becomes a closed entropy system and is no longer decentralized, but only a distributed, permissioned ledger.

If you want to use the system, you require native tokens, and in a closed entropy system, you're at the mercy of whoever owns them to extort you. In Bitcoin, it's an open-entropy, permissionless ledger, so this is not the case. This means the only way you could actually define closed entropy systems is basically companies or businesses. The nash equilibrium is then lost for much of their use case.

adamstgBit

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Quote from: r0ach on April 01, 2016, 11:17:08 PM

Quote from: adamstgBit on March 31, 2016, 10:30:28 PM

because i need the coin to mine the coin the its a permissioned leger?

I explained earlier. Forget trying to analyze what PoS is (a recursive, closed loop system). Instead figure out why Bitcoin actually is a decentralized currency. The answer is:

The purpose of mining is to create a permanent two way peg, decentralized exchange, which thus results in a permissionless system.

Once you remove the mechanism of a permanent 2 way peg with our world and the computer world, it turns into a closed entropy system, which is the equivalent of 1's and 0's being trapped on a floppy disk and not decentralized anymore.

being fully honest, i have simply dont understand what your saying, maybe my view is too high level. to me you either prove you computing power (POW) or you prove your economic power ( POS)

i think we'd need a face to face discussion with a blackboard to understand your point. ( and i need to be equipped with a joint )

that being said i trust your one to somthing fundamental which really does make POS systems invalid in some way, the fact that i dont "get it" dosnt make much diff to me, you've convinced me... without making me understand , if that makes any sense

Chef Ramsay

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Quote from: adamstgBit on April 01, 2016, 11:12:31 PM

Quote from: Chef Ramsay on April 01, 2016, 11:11:48 PM

Quote from: adamstgBit on April 01, 2016, 09:15:23 PM

Smirnoff or 5 o'clock?

Smirnoff

how many? A friend said, i never stop at one nor go past eleven. Heard 5 o'clock makes the next day start pretty unfavorably.

r0ach

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Quote from: adamstgBit on March 31, 2016, 10:30:28 PM

because i need the coin to mine the coin the its a permissioned leger?

I explained earlier. Forget trying to analyze what PoS is (a recursive, closed loop system). Instead figure out why Bitcoin actually is a decentralized currency. The answer is:

The purpose of mining is to create a permanent two way peg, decentralized exchange, which thus results in a permissionless system.

Once you remove the mechanism of a permanent 2 way peg with our world and the computer world, it turns into a closed entropy system, which is the equivalent of 1's and 0's being trapped on a floppy disk and not decentralized anymore.

It's the difference between a living and evolving organism vs a video game AI script.

adamstgBit

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i dnot do this every night
i was left to my own devices, gf was out wedding streess shpoing for her friend.

adamstgBit

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Quote from: Chef Ramsay on April 01, 2016, 11:11:48 PM

Quote from: adamstgBit on April 01, 2016, 09:15:23 PM

Smirnoff or 5 o'clock?

Smirnoff

Chef Ramsay

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Quote from: adamstgBit on April 01, 2016, 09:15:23 PM

Smirnoff or 5 o'clock?

adamstgBit

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i sent this one to my gf

LOL

adamstgBit

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adamstgBit

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price breaks 420 once again, here what i have to say:

adamstgBit

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price res. broken, and not a shit was given... this is bullish

bargainbin

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Yeh... not pretty. Have you considered going on ETH maintenance?
Or maybe taper/wean yourself off the stuff by mining (AKA "Chinese cure")?

adamstgBit

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Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 18976. (Read 26608895 times)