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Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 19691. (Read 26608330 times)

legendary
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1016
Attention men!

I know you've been wondering about what makes me invisible to you. That is not necessary for you to understand. Even though i am but a beam of light, I can, at all times, see you.

ChartBuddy, ChartBuddy give me your hand
Give me somethin' that I can remember
Just like before we can walk by the shore in the moonlight!


New Years is over. Put the red bull and vodka down.
legendary
Activity: 2380
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legendary
Activity: 2576
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In that regard, there is no problem having varying opinions about the direction forward, but when several large block proponents argue like spoiled children regarding having to do x "right now," or everything is going to go to hell in a handbasket, it comes off as short-sighted at best and disingenuous at worse, because bitcoin is not broken at the moment, even though plans and measures do need to take place in order to scale and prepare for the future seemingly inevitable increases in transaction volume.

Meh, the big-blockers are mostly putting forward arguments and trying to actually do something about things. The small blockers are the ones engaging in DDOS attacks, censorship (mostly led by Theymos) and other childish tricks. It's one thing to have disagreements, it's another to try and control the narrative.
legendary
Activity: 2576
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legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 11299
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
XT takes Bitcoin and modifies some of its core consensus rules. Right now, it happens to be compatible with Bitcoin in most cases. But because it uses different rules, it can (depending on what miners do) split into a totally separate currency. Therefore, XT is not Bitcoin. A similar sort of thing was done with Feathercoin, which split off from Litecoin.

Some sort of block-size limit is necessary because if miners make blocks too large for a long period of time, then this makes it difficult for people to run full nodes. (In other words, block size is a negative externality suffered by full nodes due to the actions of miners and transaction-makers.) If not enough of the economy is backed by independent full nodes, then Bitcoin is totally insecure for everyone (see here and here). And there's no reason to think that miners would voluntarily keep blocks small enough -- they don't have the right incentives. So the network needs to enforce some limit. In the long-run the limit can't stay at 1 MB forever (and Satoshi acknowledged this), but this works well enough for now.

People often think that Bitcoin is ruled by miners, but this is wrong. Miners are merely employees of the network. Even if every miner decided to make 2 MB blocks right now, everyone running a Bitcoin full node would simply ignore their blocks. Bitcoin is composed of immutable rules (called "consensus rules") that all full nodes enforce no matter what. Modifying these rules requires creating a separate currency and having everyone else move to this separate currency. If pretty much everyone agrees in advance that it's OK to do this, then this is a consensus hardfork, and the result is still Bitcoin. If there is significant controversy, then the new currency is not Bitcoin. See this diagram.

Quote
And to me it seems that the block size limit would be a problem right? Wont it either dramatically increase fees and/or causr transaction favoritism/selection? Bitcoin is special because all transactions are treated equally?

If blocks sometimes get full, then paying a too-low fee might significantly delay your transaction. If blocks are consistently full, then if you don't pay a sufficient fee, your transaction might never confirm. The exact fee required will depend on how many other transactions are being created and how much block space is left. Increasing the max block size will allow for lower fees.

Bitcoin is special because it is decentralized and to a very large extent incorruptible by humans, not because it might in some cases allow cheap transactions. If it can be done safely, the max block size should be increased if fees become a significant problem. But if the max block size is at the maximum safe size, then we shouldn't abandon the decentralization, security, etc. of the base Bitcoin system in order to achieve lower fees. We should instead look for some other solution. And there are in fact a variety of solutions in the works, both to make max block size increases safer (eg. IBLT and/or weak blocks) and to reduce the number of on-blockchain transactions that people need to perform (eg. Lightning). And if these "perfect" solutions are insufficient, there are various imperfect solutions which increase scalability at some security cost for its users. There might be some hiccups along the way, but I am very confident that the Bitcoin currency/ecosystem can both remain secure+decentralized and eventually scale to encompass all world transactions if necessary.

The max block size is planned to be effectively increased to about 2 MB sometime this year with the SegWit softfork. See: https://bitcoin.org/en/bitcoin-core/capacity-increases . An increase to much more than this is not viewed as safe by many experts.

Actually...I like that. Am I a cripplecoiner now?

These are very well reasoned points from Theymos  that make a whole hell of a lot more sense than some of the "sky is falling" "doom and gloom"  "scale or die" bullshit conclusory arguments made by BJA and some of that ilk.

In that regard, there is no problem having varying opinions about the direction forward, but when several large block proponents argue like spoiled children regarding having to do x "right now," or everything is going to go to hell in a handbasket, it comes off as short-sighted at best and disingenuous at worse, because bitcoin is not broken at the moment, even though plans and measures do need to take place in order to scale and prepare for the future seemingly inevitable increases in transaction volume.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1116
I'm still torn. IDK.  Undecided

He's a bright kid. Tongue
legendary
Activity: 1281
Merit: 1000
☑ ♟ ☐ ♚
XT takes Bitcoin and modifies some of its core consensus rules. Right now, it happens to be compatible with Bitcoin in most cases. But because it uses different rules, it can (depending on what miners do) split into a totally separate currency. Therefore, XT is not Bitcoin. A similar sort of thing was done with Feathercoin, which split off from Litecoin.

Some sort of block-size limit is necessary because if miners make blocks too large for a long period of time, then this makes it difficult for people to run full nodes. (In other words, block size is a negative externality suffered by full nodes due to the actions of miners and transaction-makers.) If not enough of the economy is backed by independent full nodes, then Bitcoin is totally insecure for everyone (see here and here). And there's no reason to think that miners would voluntarily keep blocks small enough -- they don't have the right incentives. So the network needs to enforce some limit. In the long-run the limit can't stay at 1 MB forever (and Satoshi acknowledged this), but this works well enough for now.

People often think that Bitcoin is ruled by miners, but this is wrong. Miners are merely employees of the network. Even if every miner decided to make 2 MB blocks right now, everyone running a Bitcoin full node would simply ignore their blocks. Bitcoin is composed of immutable rules (called "consensus rules") that all full nodes enforce no matter what. Modifying these rules requires creating a separate currency and having everyone else move to this separate currency. If pretty much everyone agrees in advance that it's OK to do this, then this is a consensus hardfork, and the result is still Bitcoin. If there is significant controversy, then the new currency is not Bitcoin. See this diagram.

Quote
And to me it seems that the block size limit would be a problem right? Wont it either dramatically increase fees and/or causr transaction favoritism/selection? Bitcoin is special because all transactions are treated equally?

If blocks sometimes get full, then paying a too-low fee might significantly delay your transaction. If blocks are consistently full, then if you don't pay a sufficient fee, your transaction might never confirm. The exact fee required will depend on how many other transactions are being created and how much block space is left. Increasing the max block size will allow for lower fees.

Bitcoin is special because it is decentralized and to a very large extent incorruptible by humans, not because it might in some cases allow cheap transactions. If it can be done safely, the max block size should be increased if fees become a significant problem. But if the max block size is at the maximum safe size, then we shouldn't abandon the decentralization, security, etc. of the base Bitcoin system in order to achieve lower fees. We should instead look for some other solution. And there are in fact a variety of solutions in the works, both to make max block size increases safer (eg. IBLT and/or weak blocks) and to reduce the number of on-blockchain transactions that people need to perform (eg. Lightning). And if these "perfect" solutions are insufficient, there are various imperfect solutions which increase scalability at some security cost for its users. There might be some hiccups along the way, but I am very confident that the Bitcoin currency/ecosystem can both remain secure+decentralized and eventually scale to encompass all world transactions if necessary.

The max block size is planned to be effectively increased to about 2 MB sometime this year with the SegWit softfork. See: https://bitcoin.org/en/bitcoin-core/capacity-increases . An increase to much more than this is not viewed as safe by many experts.

Actually...I like that. Am I a cripplecoiner now?
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1116
XT takes Bitcoin and modifies some of its core consensus rules. Right now, it happens to be compatible with Bitcoin in most cases. But because it uses different rules, it can (depending on what miners do) split into a totally separate currency. Therefore, XT is not Bitcoin. A similar sort of thing was done with Feathercoin, which split off from Litecoin.

Some sort of block-size limit is necessary because if miners make blocks too large for a long period of time, then this makes it difficult for people to run full nodes. (In other words, block size is a negative externality suffered by full nodes due to the actions of miners and transaction-makers.) If not enough of the economy is backed by independent full nodes, then Bitcoin is totally insecure for everyone (see here and here). And there's no reason to think that miners would voluntarily keep blocks small enough -- they don't have the right incentives. So the network needs to enforce some limit. In the long-run the limit can't stay at 1 MB forever (and Satoshi acknowledged this), but this works well enough for now.

People often think that Bitcoin is ruled by miners, but this is wrong. Miners are merely employees of the network. Even if every miner decided to make 2 MB blocks right now, everyone running a Bitcoin full node would simply ignore their blocks. Bitcoin is composed of immutable rules (called "consensus rules") that all full nodes enforce no matter what. Modifying these rules requires creating a separate currency and having everyone else move to this separate currency. If pretty much everyone agrees in advance that it's OK to do this, then this is a consensus hardfork, and the result is still Bitcoin. If there is significant controversy, then the new currency is not Bitcoin. See this diagram.

Quote
And to me it seems that the block size limit would be a problem right? Wont it either dramatically increase fees and/or causr transaction favoritism/selection? Bitcoin is special because all transactions are treated equally?

If blocks sometimes get full, then paying a too-low fee might significantly delay your transaction. If blocks are consistently full, then if you don't pay a sufficient fee, your transaction might never confirm. The exact fee required will depend on how many other transactions are being created and how much block space is left. Increasing the max block size will allow for lower fees.

Bitcoin is special because it is decentralized and to a very large extent incorruptible by humans, not because it might in some cases allow cheap transactions. If it can be done safely, the max block size should be increased if fees become a significant problem. But if the max block size is at the maximum safe size, then we shouldn't abandon the decentralization, security, etc. of the base Bitcoin system in order to achieve lower fees. We should instead look for some other solution. And there are in fact a variety of solutions in the works, both to make max block size increases safer (eg. IBLT and/or weak blocks) and to reduce the number of on-blockchain transactions that people need to perform (eg. Lightning). And if these "perfect" solutions are insufficient, there are various imperfect solutions which increase scalability at some security cost for its users. There might be some hiccups along the way, but I am very confident that the Bitcoin currency/ecosystem can both remain secure+decentralized and eventually scale to encompass all world transactions if necessary.

The max block size is planned to be effectively increased to about 2 MB sometime this year with the SegWit softfork. See: https://bitcoin.org/en/bitcoin-core/capacity-increases . An increase to much more than this is not viewed as safe by many experts.
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 2267
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By the way, there is no excuse for the cost to be quadratic.  That is one of the many crocks in the BitcoinCore implementation, that will take more crocks to work around.  Like the Segregated Witnesses proposal,  malleability and its partial patches, blockchain voting to increase the limit, etc..

Jorge, do you have a link to how this issue arises and, ideally, how it might be solved?

I have to agree that it seems like the core devs are working on the wrong things currently. I know open source is supposed to be about scratching an itch but there are some quite serious issues that have consistently failed to be addressed with core (some of which are seeing progress in some of the alternate versions).
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
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legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
legendary
Activity: 1036
Merit: 1000
It's 2016. Are we going up yet?
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1000
@theshmadz
Perhaps this is a better role for bitcoin; a clearing layer for equities and bearer bonds and land titles and international settlement and such; but I'm not certain that this is the best answer for the dream of digital, private, truly fungible cash.

Monero is making moves to incorporate I2P protocol to further improve anonymity. If interested please check out latest Monero missives podcast.

http://traffic.libsyn.com/monero/Monero_Missives_Podcast_for_the_week_of_2015-12-26.mp3

Btw, Monero is pretty much the cheapest it's ever been right now, almost a thousand to one bitcoin... Not pumping, just saying.

If BTC can't perform the role of cash due to scaling it's unlikely that cryptonote coins would become e-cash without some kind of breakthrough in scaling - as they are way worse than BTC (at least in that aspect).

Of course cryptocurrencies are emerging technologies and we have no idea how far this is going to go into the future.

A web page in 1995 was designed with considerations like "will it download fast over a 2400 bps modem?", "is this gif *really* necessary? the load times are slow", etc etc... but fast forward 20 years later we have 1080p and 4k videos / 60 fps through our browser.

Perhaps bandwidth, network speeds, processing speeds, storage, in say 10-15-20 years will be so dramatically improved that even "heavy" blockchains are quite normal for everyday use without anyone even thinking about it.

Yeah, there is an overhead problem, but I like the niche use case. Also, the Monero blocksize is flexible and responsive and scaling is built-in. At least until network effects have an affect, at which point Monero has become successful enough that I expect there would be sufficient incentive to pay developers to find solutions.

In closing, I'm not married to any one currency at this point, still mostly in btc, just from being lucky to be around back in the day, but I like to get at least a little piece of everything when it's cheap... You never know....

(Full disclosure: My personal hope and most of my efforts are directed towards the safe network project at this point. If they can get a network that is truly secure by default running, and if they (we?) Can make it easy and accessible, then I think we already have the framework to do currency at that level.)

Happy new year everyone and let's push for ever more in 2016.
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
Nice to wake up and see about 440  Grin

congratulations on a very optimistic start into the new year Wink

I'm seeing 431
legendary
Activity: 2380
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legendary
Activity: 2198
Merit: 1000
Nice to wake up and see about 440  Grin
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