Author

Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 20627. (Read 26608495 times)

legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
I think what it comes down to is two separate visions for Bitcoin:

Vision 1: The block size limit should be used as a policy tool by a group of experts to balance fees with security/decentralization.

Vision 2: The evolution of the network should be determined by the code we freely choose to run, and Bitcoin should scale with demand through a market-based process.

This is complete bogus as usual Peter.

The evolution of the network is already determined by the code nodes choose to run.


If Core supported free choice by users, then we'd have an easy solution to the block size limit debate: they'd make it easy for node operators to express their support for "no change," BIP100, BIP101, etc, etc.  That would solve the block size debate in a hurry.  

However, the Blockstream crew is already on record saying that the users should *not* be the ones to choose.  And this is the reason they are opposed to allowing the people an easy way to express their wishes.  

Solve it how exactly? By a vote?

For example, Core could add code to support BIP101, BIP100, and any other solutions that had popular support.  Miners could then very easily select--with a drop down menu in the GUI or with a run-time parameter--which of the proposals to flag support for in their blocks (perhaps even voting for several at the same time).  Non-mining nodes could show support in other ways (although this would be less reliable). The first proposal to be activated (e.g., at the 75% threshold) would be the market-selected winner.
legendary
Activity: 1554
Merit: 1014
Make Bitcoin glow with ENIAC

Alright. Let me jump in with my favorite analogy then.

Seeing as we love all things free market then let me ask: are you of the opinion that the network of logging companies & cattle farmers should be left to self-governance in regards to how much of the Amazon rain forest they can cut?

Lots of stupid analogies today. The Blockhain isn't the Amazon rainforest. Increasing blocksize will not lead to any analogous detrimental effects.

I guess we could force your analogy into the carbon footprint debate. Do you want to shut Bitcoin down or go from PoW to PoS?

Yes, it has a direct effect on the cost of running a node.

That is not an "analogous detrimental effect".
legendary
Activity: 1554
Merit: 1014
Make Bitcoin glow with ENIAC

Which one is it then? Cap or no cap?

Do you oppose central control or do you not?

Personally, I think that sufficient incentives exist that the network of miners could be self governing wrt max_block_size.

Realistically, I'll take a half measure to help assuage the doubts of the fearful.

Alright. Let me jump in with my favorite analogy then.

Seeing as we love all things free market then let me ask: are you of the opinion that the network of logging companies & cattle farmers should be left to self-governance in regards to how much of the Amazon rain forest they can cut?

Sounds like we need a strong military with lots of guns to point at them. And maybe Beefstream could get involved with setting production quotas. (While marketing their tasty soy, pea protein, alternative.)

I know it will upset stolfi to hear, he may even tell me to burn in hell, but land owners should be free to destroy/nurture/defile/build and grow/harvest their own property as they choose.

Now returning to your regularly scheduled chartbuddy streak.

Land owners?  Cheesy

Surely you are not proposing these companies are legitimate owners of all this rain forest they are cutting down.

Anyway, I see you didn't quite get the idea I was attempting to get through to you.

How about big game hunters? No reason we should enforce laws about this right? I'm guessing you are fine with them self-governing the hunting of endangered species?

You've replaced one bad analogy with another. Both reeking of statist sentiment.

Bigger blocks aren't going to destroy the rainforest and kill endangered species, and you should be ashamed for using such comparisons. Mircea would be appalled. The decentralized relay network is an asset to the miners, they would be fools to destroy it.

I mean it this time chartbuddy. 

Who said they'd destroy it?

Given the incentives under a unlimited block size what'll happen is they will slowly but surely bloat it until it eventually becomes so large that only large datacenters will be able to act as peers on the network. It's a very simple dynamic but one that necessarily leads to capture of the network by the same statists you resent.
What happened to your analogy? Is the rainforest and endangered species of the world going to remain untouched, but we'll see forests bloated with wild game and cattle carcasses?
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
I think what it comes down to is two separate visions for Bitcoin:

Vision 1: The block size limit should be used as a policy tool by a group of experts to balance fees with security/decentralization.

Vision 2: The evolution of the network should be determined by the code we freely choose to run, and Bitcoin should scale with demand through a market-based process.

This is complete bogus as usual Peter.

The evolution of the network is already determined by the code nodes choose to run.


If Core supported free choice by users, then we'd have an easy solution to the block size limit debate: they'd make it easy for node operators to express their support for "no change," BIP100, BIP101, etc, etc.  That would solve the block size debate in a hurry.  

However, the Blockstream crew is already on record saying that the users should *not* be the ones to choose.  And this is the reason they are opposed to allowing the people an easy way to express their wishes.  

Solve it how exactly? By a vote?

Did you learn nothing from the XT fiasco? For all I care I could put up 10,000 nodes that "express" support for 0.5MB block size. What then?
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Alright. Let me jump in with my favorite analogy then.

Seeing as we love all things free market then let me ask: are you of the opinion that the network of logging companies & cattle farmers should be left to self-governance in regards to how much of the Amazon rain forest they can cut?

Lots of stupid analogies today. The Blockhain isn't the Amazon rainforest. Increasing blocksize will not lead to any analogous detrimental effects.

I guess we could force your analogy into the carbon footprint debate. Do you want to shut Bitcoin down or go from PoW to PoS?

Yes, it has a direct effect on the cost of running a node.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 11299
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
Dash? Monero? (less traceable) Bitshares? (much much larger transaction capacity, built in smart contracts, etc) Should I go on?  Network effect didn't save MySpace.

 Cheesy

So a pre-mined POS & a ripple rip-off are going to steal Bitcoin's lunch money? Please... Cheesy

Comparing Bitcoin network effect to Myspace confirms my suspicions: you are beyond retarded.


Ok, so humor a retard, Einstein. what's wrong with the comparison? What make a four billion dollar first mover advantage so insurmountable in a world where WhatsApp gets sold to FB for 19 billion?

Cost, retard.

Moving from Myspace to Facebook entails no cost for the user.

Divesting from Bitcoin to some other cryptocurrency "because it is better" undermines the very trust that holds the concept together and would result in a complete destruction of any value created over the years. If we are to assume that something better will always come along why would I invest myself into the current "implementation"?

Your economics, it's broken  Cry

That's a really good question, but I'm glad people are pumping now as it allows me to divest with lower cost. Don't worry though. I'll buy back in probably when a scaling solution is implemented, assuming I haven't found a better altcoin by then.

If you don't want that "complete destruction" you mentioned, you'd be wise to help ensure that there isn't something better by supporting improvements to the protocol.

So NOW you are abandoning ship?  That's a little bit crazy.

I doubt that this lack of a clear direction regarding BTC's scalability is going to be as detrimental to either its long-term or short-term success as you seem to be making it out to be.

Yes, you may be able to profit with some of the volatility of various other investments, yet BTC seems to remain a good long-term and fairly secure vehicle to place a decent amount of capital, currently.  Also there are decent upside potentials with BTC and even considerable likelihood that we could experience a sudden and unannounced doubling or tripling of value with little to NO notice and thereafter NO return to previous price levels....

So ultimately, for your own good, I hope you are NOT being too rash with your seemingly emotional decision to diversify (and/or as you put it "divest" out of BTC).
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Which one is it then? Cap or no cap?

Do you oppose central control or do you not?

Personally, I think that sufficient incentives exist that the network of miners could be self governing wrt max_block_size.

Realistically, I'll take a half measure to help assuage the doubts of the fearful.

Alright. Let me jump in with my favorite analogy then.

Seeing as we love all things free market then let me ask: are you of the opinion that the network of logging companies & cattle farmers should be left to self-governance in regards to how much of the Amazon rain forest they can cut?

Sounds like we need a strong military with lots of guns to point at them. And maybe Beefstream could get involved with setting production quotas. (While marketing their tasty soy, pea protein, alternative.)

I know it will upset stolfi to hear, he may even tell me to burn in hell, but land owners should be free to destroy/nurture/defile/build and grow/harvest their own property as they choose.

Now returning to your regularly scheduled chartbuddy streak.

Land owners?  Cheesy

Surely you are not proposing these companies are legitimate owners of all this rain forest they are cutting down.

Anyway, I see you didn't quite get the idea I was attempting to get through to you.

How about big game hunters? No reason we should enforce laws about this right? I'm guessing you are fine with them self-governing the hunting of endangered species?

You've replaced one bad analogy with another. Both reeking of statist sentiment.

Bigger blocks aren't going to destroy the rainforest and kill endangered species, and you should be ashamed for using such comparisons. Mircea would be appalled. The decentralized relay network is an asset to the miners, they would be fools to destroy it.

I mean it this time chartbuddy. 

Who said they'd destroy it?

Given the incentives under a unlimited block size what'll happen is they will slowly but surely bloat it until it eventually becomes so large that only large datacenters will be able to act as peers on the network. It's a very simple dynamic but one that necessarily leads to capture of the network by the same statists you resent.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
I think what it comes down to is two separate visions for Bitcoin:

Vision 1: The block size limit should be used as a policy tool by a group of experts to balance fees with security/decentralization.

Vision 2: The evolution of the network should be determined by the code we freely choose to run, and Bitcoin should scale with demand through a market-based process.

This is complete bogus as usual Peter.

The evolution of the network is already determined by the code nodes choose to run.


If Core supported free choice by users, then we'd have an easy solution to the block size limit debate: they'd make it easy for node operators to express their support for "no change," BIP100, BIP101, etc, etc.  That would solve the block size debate in a hurry.  

However, the Blockstream crew is already on record saying that the users should *not* be the ones to choose.  And this is the reason they are opposed to allowing the people an easy way to express their wishes.  

legendary
Activity: 1554
Merit: 1014
Make Bitcoin glow with ENIAC

Alright. Let me jump in with my favorite analogy then.

Seeing as we love all things free market then let me ask: are you of the opinion that the network of logging companies & cattle farmers should be left to self-governance in regards to how much of the Amazon rain forest they can cut?

Lots of stupid analogies today. The Blockhain isn't the Amazon rainforest. Increasing blocksize will not lead to any analogous detrimental effects.

I guess we could force your analogy into the carbon footprint debate. Do you want to shut Bitcoin down or go from PoW to PoS?
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
I think what it comes down to is two separate visions for Bitcoin:

Vision 1: The block size limit should be used as a policy tool by a group of experts to balance fees with security/decentralization.

Vision 2: The evolution of the network should be determined by the code we freely choose to run, and Bitcoin should scale with demand through a market-based process.

This is complete bogus as usual Peter.

The evolution of the network is already determined by the code nodes choose to run.

In this case they unanimously chose to retain the 1 MB cap until a better proposition comes along.

Maybe they're waiting for "Bitcoin unlimited"?  Wink
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250

Which one is it then? Cap or no cap?

Do you oppose central control or do you not?

Personally, I think that sufficient incentives exist that the network of miners could be self governing wrt max_block_size.

Realistically, I'll take a half measure to help assuage the doubts of the fearful.

Alright. Let me jump in with my favorite analogy then.

Seeing as we love all things free market then let me ask: are you of the opinion that the network of logging companies & cattle farmers should be left to self-governance in regards to how much of the Amazon rain forest they can cut?

Sounds like we need a strong military with lots of guns to point at them. And maybe Beefstream could get involved with setting production quotas. (While marketing their tasty soy, pea protein, alternative.)

I know it will upset stolfi to hear, he may even tell me to burn in hell, but land owners should be free to destroy/nurture/defile/build and grow/harvest their own property as they choose.

Now returning to your regularly scheduled chartbuddy streak.

Land owners?  Cheesy

Surely you are not proposing these companies are legitimate owners of all this rain forest they are cutting down.

Anyway, I see you didn't quite get the idea I was attempting to get through to you.

How about big game hunters? No reason we should enforce laws about this right? I'm guessing you are fine with them self-governing the hunting of endangered species?

You've replaced one bad analogy with another. Both reeking of statist sentiment.

Bigger blocks aren't going to destroy the rainforest and kill endangered species, and you should be ashamed for using such comparisons. Mircea would be appalled. The decentralized relay network is an asset to the miners, they would be fools to destroy it.

I mean it this time chartbuddy. 
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
I think what it comes down to is two separate visions for Bitcoin:

Vision 1: The block size limit should be used as a policy tool by a group of experts to balance fees with security/decentralization.

Vision 2: The evolution of the network should be determined by the code we freely choose to run, and Bitcoin should scale with demand through a market-based process.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Which one is it then? Cap or no cap?

Do you oppose central control or do you not?

Personally, I think that sufficient incentives exist that the network of miners could be self governing wrt max_block_size.

Realistically, I'll take a half measure to help assuage the doubts of the fearful.

Alright. Let me jump in with my favorite analogy then.

Seeing as we love all things free market then let me ask: are you of the opinion that the network of logging companies & cattle farmers should be left to self-governance in regards to how much of the Amazon rain forest they can cut?

Sounds like we need a strong military with lots of guns to point at them. And maybe Beefstream could get involved with setting production quotas. (While marketing their tasty soy, pea protein, alternative.)

I know it will upset stolfi to hear, he may even tell me to burn in hell, but land owners should be free to destroy/nurture/defile/build and grow/harvest their own property as they choose.

Now returning to your regularly scheduled chartbuddy streak.

Land owners?  Cheesy

Surely you are not proposing these companies are legitimate owners of all this rain forest they are cutting down.

Anyway, I see you didn't quite get the idea I was attempting to get through to you.

How about big game hunters? No reason we should enforce laws about this right? I'm guessing you are fine with them self-governing the hunting of endangered species?
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250

Which one is it then? Cap or no cap?

Do you oppose central control or do you not?

Personally, I think that sufficient incentives exist that the network of miners could be self governing wrt max_block_size.

Realistically, I'll take a half measure to help assuage the doubts of the fearful.

Alright. Let me jump in with my favorite analogy then.

Seeing as we love all things free market then let me ask: are you of the opinion that the network of logging companies & cattle farmers should be left to self-governance in regards to how much of the Amazon rain forest they can cut?

Sounds like we need a strong military with lots of guns to point at them. And maybe Beefstream could get involved with setting production quotas. (While marketing their tasty soy, pea protein, alternative.)

I know it will upset stolfi to hear, he may even tell me to burn in hell, but land owners should be free to destroy/nurture/defile/build and grow/harvest their own property as they choose.

Now returning to your regularly scheduled chartbuddy streak.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

I know you're quite enamored with bitcoin, I am too, but the real world (power companies, sellers/renters of real estate) tend to still be using that whole silly fiat thing. Haven't quite listed themselves on MPEx with the other titans of industry, as it were. The world isn't our own personal castle game... yet.

Miners incentives are the variable that counts. And it isn't gmaxwell in a cape that is keeping them in line and holding their arm back from slaughtering the golden goose. Why? Because satoshi designed the entire system so that their interests were sufficiently aligned with those that they service.

Yes, I agree he was very wise in retrospect to set the block size cap.

In fact I will suggest he did not even fully understand the importance and critical importance of this decision for the long term success of Bitcoin. Absent of a cap the incentives you refer to become completely skewed in favor of the miners at great cost for the security & decentralization of the network.

Don't get me wrong, we shall increase the block size eventually, "just not tonight, dear".

Ah, the old, "if satoshi had more foresight he would agree with me" argument.

As for what he actually said:

It can be phased in, like:

if (blocknumber > 115000)
    maxblocksize = largerlimit

It can start being in versions way ahead, so by the time it reaches that block number and goes into effect, the older versions that don't have it are already obsolete.

When we're near the cutoff block number, I can put an alert to old versions to make sure they know they have to upgrade.


) I am increasingly astonished that people who gravitated to bitcoin for its free market incentives and function, are simultaneously terrified that without central control over "consensus" it would fall on it's face.  

Which one is it then? Cap or no cap?

Do you oppose central control or do you not?

Personally, I think that sufficient incentives exist that the network of miners could be self governing wrt max_block_size.

Realistically, I'll take a half measure to help assuage the doubts of the fearful.

Alright. Let me jump in with my favorite analogy then.

Seeing as we love all things free market then let me ask: are you of the opinion that the network of logging companies & cattle farmers should be left to self-governance in regards to how much of the Amazon rain forest they can cut?
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
This banter is making me wish for the days with six ChartBuddys in a row.
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250

I know you're quite enamored with bitcoin, I am too, but the real world (power companies, sellers/renters of real estate) tend to still be using that whole silly fiat thing. Haven't quite listed themselves on MPEx with the other titans of industry, as it were. The world isn't our own personal castle game... yet.

Miners incentives are the variable that counts. And it isn't gmaxwell in a cape that is keeping them in line and holding their arm back from slaughtering the golden goose. Why? Because satoshi designed the entire system so that their interests were sufficiently aligned with those that they service.

Yes, I agree he was very wise in retrospect to set the block size cap.

In fact I will suggest he did not even fully understand the importance and critical importance of this decision for the long term success of Bitcoin. Absent of a cap the incentives you refer to become completely skewed in favor of the miners at great cost for the security & decentralization of the network.

Don't get me wrong, we shall increase the block size eventually, "just not tonight, dear".

Ah, the old, "if satoshi had more foresight he would agree with me" argument.

As for what he actually said:

It can be phased in, like:

if (blocknumber > 115000)
    maxblocksize = largerlimit

It can start being in versions way ahead, so by the time it reaches that block number and goes into effect, the older versions that don't have it are already obsolete.

When we're near the cutoff block number, I can put an alert to old versions to make sure they know they have to upgrade.


) I am increasingly astonished that people who gravitated to bitcoin for its free market incentives and function, are simultaneously terrified that without central control over "consensus" it would fall on it's face.  

Which one is it then? Cap or no cap?

Do you oppose central control or do you not?

Personally, I think that sufficient incentives exist that the network of miners could be self governing wrt max_block_size.

Realistically, I'll take a half measure to help assuage the doubts of the fearful.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
If everyone and their rich friends are using Bitcoin to preserve their monetary sovereignty why would they ever convert their money back to fiat?

Because Scrooge McDuck diving into a vault-full of gold is a cartoon and not real. People with wealth generally want to do things with it. Buy yachts, build Casinos, hookers and blow, all that. And that requires a currency that others transact in.

 Roll Eyes

You cannot be serious....

So savings are not a thing anymore? I guess that's how serious the fiat economy has mindfucked everyone's brain...

I guess you are right if you think of bitcoins as dollars, which they are not but to entertain the idea:

Quote
The problem inflationary currency bestows upon capital allocators is insolvable. They are given money of no certain value (pretty much the only sure thing about the paper currency is that it is, literally, burning in your hands, it ticks away like a bomb, it blows in the wind like dust - all this while you're holding it) and have to do something with it. They always, always, always, absolutely always have more than is in fact needed.

http://trilema.com/2012/the-problem-of-too-much-money/#selection-163.0-163.438

Fortunately we all know this is actually not the case and seeing as Bitcoin is deflationary by nature one should be well advised to consider hoarding that shit as long as reasonably possible.


Bitcoin isn't deflationary. And ZIRP / NIRP is what has killed savings and by extension has changed the rules of capitalism.

Not yet, indeed (but fixed supply and all that...). And no.

I'd suggest you go read the article linked to better understand. It's explained very well. "Capital misallocation" are the key words here.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

I know you're quite enamored with bitcoin, I am too, but the real world (power companies, sellers/renters of real estate) tend to still be using that whole silly fiat thing. Haven't quite listed themselves on MPEx with the other titans of industry, as it were. The world isn't our own personal castle game... yet.

Miners incentives are the variable that counts. And it isn't gmaxwell in a cape that is keeping them in line and holding their arm back from slaughtering the golden goose. Why? Because satoshi designed the entire system so that their interests were sufficiently aligned with those that they service.

Yes, I agree he was very wise in retrospect to set the block size cap.

In fact I will suggest he did not even fully understand the importance and critical importance of this decision for the long term success of Bitcoin. Absent of a cap the incentives you refer to become completely skewed in favor of the miners at great cost for the security & decentralization of the network.

Don't get me wrong, we shall increase the block size eventually, "just not tonight, dear".

Ah, the old, "if satoshi had more foresight he would agree with me" argument.

As for what he actually said:

It can be phased in, like:

if (blocknumber > 115000)
    maxblocksize = largerlimit

It can start being in versions way ahead, so by the time it reaches that block number and goes into effect, the older versions that don't have it are already obsolete.

When we're near the cutoff block number, I can put an alert to old versions to make sure they know they have to upgrade.


) I am increasingly astonished that people who gravitated to bitcoin for its free market incentives and function, are simultaneously terrified that without central control over "consensus" it would fall on it's face.  

Which one is it then? Cap or no cap?

Do you oppose central control or do you not?
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