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Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 20968. (Read 26609867 times)

legendary
Activity: 1554
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Make Bitcoin glow with ENIAC

The Extortionist

This person as illegally acquired sensitive information which is of no obvious significance for the Public Sphere but could be devastating in individual cases. This person is actively threatening to cause harm unless it is paid a ransom. This person is a criminal, whatever way you look at it. Any pretense of a moral high ground simply adds insult to injury.



Bullshit. The blackmailers in this case are not the same as the hackers who leaked.  They did not illegally obtain the information and they are leaving it to the users  of the site to decide if more harm than good is caused by exposing their activities to their spouses or if it is worth paying the ransom. People in open relationships would never pay the ransom anyway so you are bringing up something completely irrelevant.

Punishing bad behavior is only good if the State does it? Only when the state punishes bad behavior does it result in less bad behavior? What makes government sanction so magically delicious?

There would be no blackmail if people did not do things they would be ashamed to admit. If punishing bad behavior leads to less bad behavior then it is a net benefit to society regardless of who does the punishing. Cops get paid to investigate and bring ugly truths to light, so what is it about a badge that makes the same action bad for a private citizen?



You're opposed to government and in support of a police state at the same time. Consistency is a bitch. As is consequentialism.
legendary
Activity: 3780
Merit: 5429
...
Sure there is intrinsic value in truth. Society relies on the social capital truth and trust gives us. Building relations without truth would be impossible. Government would be impossible without truth. Engineering and science would be impossible without truth. Truth is what is in relation to others and even oneself.

You're joking right? That joke was so big I shot coffee right out of my nose.  North Korea, Greece, (the list goes on) anyone?

Next your going to say that Finance would impossible without truth, I suppose.
legendary
Activity: 2380
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legendary
Activity: 1554
Merit: 1014
Make Bitcoin glow with ENIAC


...
Sure there is intrinsic value in truth. Society relies on the social capital truth and trust gives us. Building relations without truth would be impossible. Government would be impossible without truth. Engineering and science would be impossible without truth. Truth is what is in relation to others and even oneself.

You're thinking instrumental, not intrinsic, value.  Intrinsic means in and of itself.  Opening a can is difficult without a can opener.  This doesn't imply that a can opener has intrinsic value--merely instrumental (to opening cans).


Yes, just listing examples like that does not show you that truth is intrinsic. But I am still of the opinion that truth has intrinsic value. If I ever write a doctorate on Kants Third Critique (yes third, not second) I might post the part concerning truth here and you can give it a blasé nod. But in case that doesn't happen you'll just have to take my word for it. Pleeeeease?
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1007
Hide your women

The Extortionist

This person as illegally acquired sensitive information which is of no obvious significance for the Public Sphere but could be devastating in individual cases. This person is actively threatening to cause harm unless it is paid a ransom. This person is a criminal, whatever way you look at it. Any pretense of a moral high ground simply adds insult to injury.



Bullshit. The blackmailers in this case are not the same as the hackers who leaked.  They did not illegally obtain the information and they are leaving it to the users  of the site to decide if more harm than good is caused by exposing their activities to their spouses or if it is worth paying the ransom. People in open relationships would never pay the ransom anyway so you are bringing up something completely irrelevant.

Punishing bad behavior is only good if the State does it? Only when the state punishes bad behavior does it result in less bad behavior? What makes government sanction so magically delicious?

There would be no blackmail if people did not do things they would be ashamed to admit. If punishing bad behavior leads to less bad behavior then it is a net benefit to society regardless of who does the punishing. Cops get paid to investigate and bring ugly truths to light, so what is it about a badge that makes the same action bad for a private citizen?

legendary
Activity: 1554
Merit: 1014
Make Bitcoin glow with ENIAC


If the choice is between (living out my days in blissful ignorance) & (learning ugly truth & turning into a bitter wretch), I'll pick ignorance. There is no intrinsic value in truth, especially when it's not life-affirming.

That's your choice. I don't see what's so life-affirming about being a sucker with an unsatisfied spouse.

Quote
My point stands tho: telling a guy that his wife sucks D at a truck stop doesn't make you a hero.  You may disagree.


It might if it leads the guy either become a better husband or free of a deceitful woman.

After [presumably] learning that your ex was a cheating piece of shit, you became a better husband?
A better husband to whom, may I ask, to your cheating ex?  
Did she ...deserve a better husband?

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Can we at least agree that it doesn't make you a criminal?

Sure.  Farting at the opera doesn't make you a criminal either.  Just unpleasant.
Can we agree that not everyone who is !criminal = hero?

Sure there is intrinsic value in truth. Society relies on the social capital truth and trust gives us. Building relations without truth would be impossible. Sound government would be impossible without truth. Engineering and science would be impossible without truth. Truth is what is in relation to others and even oneself.

In this case there are several moral actors.

The User of the dirty site -

I am not too familiar with this site but I assume this is a site that arranges encounters between two consenting non-professional adults. In which case both would be the user. Whether the user is doing something immoral depends on their relationship with their significant other. If the user is in an open relationship then the "secret encounter" provided by the site is within their understanding of a trusting and respectful relationship. There is no casualty. If the users relationship with its significant other is of an entirely exclusive nature then this is naturally a violation of the trust and respect that is expected in such a relationship. But the gravity of this violation is not for anyone else to decide. For some it will be devastating, for others it will be brushed away.

The Significant Other
If open relationship, shrug. If not, then this person must act in such a way that its person is not devalued to such an extent that it is disrespectful to itself. For instance, if the cheater shows no remorse and acts as if this is something the significant other just will have to deal with. It would be difficult to stay in such a relationship without causing harm to oneself.

The Extortionist

This person has illegally acquired sensitive information which is of no obvious significance to the Public Sphere but could be devastating in individual cases. This person is actively threatening to cause harm unless it is paid a ransom. This person is a criminal, whatever way you look at it. Any pretense of a moral high ground simply adds insult to injury.

The Site

This kind of business is riddled with moral grey zones. The best defense it has is that the users are grown ups and must be held responsible to their own choices. Which is right. But...

Bitcoin Speculators

The fact that other peoples misery can have positive effects for someone else is not new. It's not exceptional either. But we have examples where it is very clear that it's strongly morally problematic: war profiteering, blood diamonds, cheap goods from child labour.
Is this one of those cases? I doubt there are many of us who got into Bitcoin because we thought we would ride on a wave of sizzling blackmail. Nor is that the intended goal of Bitcoin. Can we let ourselves completely off the hook? We know Bitcoin is being used by criminals, as is any other currency. But by supporting, or at least not standing in the way of, considered and appropriate measures to prevent such activity, we can soothe our conscience a bit.

Hypotethical Moralist

If a Moralist, in support of some dogma, were to release the information without demanding a ransom, he might think he is doing good. Admittedly, the users will get what's coming to them and the significant others will get to know the truth. But the moralist acts as a judge and executioner in a series of cases he knows nothing about. And there certainly isn't any reason why the general public should have access to this information. What if it turns out that most of these encounters happens with the blessing of the significant other? And even this is just a minority, what right does he have to stick his nose into their business?

"The absolute worst kind of person is a moralist" - Anonymous

(I know I'm too late with this, but I wrote this shit so I'm posting it)
legendary
Activity: 1159
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legendary
Activity: 1106
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Hide your women


Those books don't show my hidden lowball orders and I suspect many more on top of mine.

I'm HAPPY those longs were closed. They put a ceiling on price.  every margin long has to close before profits are taken.  I closed a bunch myself when I trippled down AFTER the bottom, got my average buy-in price below spot on the bounce, closed and used the profits to buy MOAR BTC.  


edit: and screw those guys. Why should they get zero fees when I have to pay?

Those books also don't show the shit storm of btc that would be sold into those hidden orders as well.

Yeah and there's still 100k btc at CURRENT prices of longs open, that's still a hilariously large ceiling on the price if you ask me  Cheesy

Because they make markets, have you tried to trade on an illiquid exchange, without market makers and liquidity providers most the exchanges would be hardly more liquid than some shit coin markets, spreads would be massive and us traders couldn't make money, its how this shit works.



so if you were a whale waiting for the last year or two to buy low with minimal slippage, which exchange would you use right now?  If you were looking to take coins from longs getting squeezed, which exchange would you use? The one with the lowest fees or the one with the most vulnerable people on the opposite side of the trade?  I'm a bull.I go where the sellers are or are going to be.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 11299
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
Saw an article this morning.  http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/the-blackmail-of-ashley-madison-users-has-already-begun/ar-BBlXLTH?li=AA54ur I guess a extortionist group called "Team GrayFlay" is already threatening to blackmail Ashley Madison users in the hack and they want payment only in Bitcoin.  From the article
Quote
Unfortunately your data was leaked in the recent hacking of Ashley Madison and I now have your information. If you would like to prevent me from finding and sharing this information with your significant other send exactly 2.00000054 bitcoins (approx. value $450 USD) to the following address…
Quote
If Team GrayFlay (or any other blackmailer, for that matter) emailed all 32 million account holders, and just 0.01% of them agreed to pay up the $450 (£288) ransom, it would still earn them $1.4 million dollars (£0.9 million).

So I guess this is bullish news?  Not sure how I feel about making a profit on the heels of extortion though.   Undecided

Nobody will pay that if they have half a brain.

Betting that everyone in a pool of 32 million has >1/2 brin is a _____ bet?
Fill in blank.

All in.  Bitcoin is going up!  Cheesy


Sorry that I have NOT been following you Bitchick, but I thought that several months back you sold a large portion of your bitcoins (at least your husband did). 

When did you get back into the "all in" sentiment?  In other words, for how long have you been buying back in?

legendary
Activity: 1106
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Hide your women
Re: Ashley Madison blackmail:

Bitcoin is money that functions on an information network. The two most obvious applications are paying for information and paying to keep information secret.  There are good and bad actors who do both. It's morality neutral.  

Now, this is the Wall Observer thread, so what is the effect on price? bad publicity is still publicity, but let's call that negative anyway. There will be short term demand as adulterers buy the ransoms, but the blackmailers may cash out at the other end. No or negligible effect either way.

The biggest fundamental concern is the unresolved scalability issue. The biggest fundamental cause for optimism is currency carnage in the EM related to an impending global crash or at least downturn and looming or expanding capital controls.

It's maddening that the core devs haven't fixed the transaction capacity now when the world has a growing need for both better payment systems and stores of value.  
hero member
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Merit: 1000


Those books don't show my hidden lowball orders and I suspect many more on top of mine.

I'm HAPPY those longs were closed. They put a ceiling on price.  every margin long has to close before profits are taken.  I closed a bunch myself when I trippled down AFTER the bottom, got my average buy-in price below spot on the bounce, closed and used the profits to buy MOAR BTC.  


edit: and screw those guys. Why should they get zero fees when I have to pay?

Those books also don't show the shit storm of btc that would be sold into those hidden orders as well.

Yeah and there's still 100k btc at CURRENT prices of longs open, that's still a hilariously large ceiling on the price if you ask me  Cheesy

Because they make markets, have you tried to trade on an illiquid exchange, without market makers and liquidity providers most the exchanges would be hardly more liquid than some shit coin markets, spreads would be massive and us traders couldn't make money, its how this shit works.

legendary
Activity: 2002
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 If you love someone, you give them what *you want them to want*--yourself.  Your ex, clearly, needed someone else's D, and to deceive you.  You, apparently, did not love her, since you did not want to give her what she needed.

Needy people are generally unattractive, whether men or woman. Don't be needy. That's all I'm going to say about that.



Quote
Quote
Farting at the opera doesn't make you a criminal either.  Just unpleasant.
Can we agree that not everyone who is !criminal = hero?

Sure. But are some criminals are also heroes (this is where people who criminally exposed wrongdoing like Snowden, Manning and Assange factor in).

Of course.  Though I'm not entirely sure the folks you chose as examples.

Batman and Robin Hood then. Whatever. The point is there is no logical reason why blackmail should be illegal, regardless of how unpleasant it is. There is a utilitarian case to be made that it does more good than harm. From the natural rights perspective, it doesn't violate any.  

Good people are not always pleasant and pleasant people are not always good. Laws are not always good and criminals are not always bad.
[/quote]

Morality and truth are both subjective.
legendary
Activity: 1106
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Hide your women
 If you love someone, you give them what *you want them to want*--yourself.  Your ex, clearly, needed someone else's D, and to deceive you.  You, apparently, did not love her, since you did not want to give her what she needed.

Needy people are generally unattractive, whether men or woman. Don't be needy. That's all I'm going to say about that.



Quote

Farting at the opera doesn't make you a criminal either.  Just unpleasant.
Can we agree that not everyone who is !criminal = hero?

Quote
Sure. But are some criminals are also heroes (this is where people who criminally exposed wrongdoing like Snowden, Manning and Assange factor in).

Of course.  Though I'm not entirely sure the folks you chose as examples.

Batman and Robin Hood then. Whatever. The point is there is no logical reason why blackmail should be illegal, regardless of how unpleasant it is. There is a utilitarian case to be made that it does more good than harm. From the natural rights perspective, it doesn't violate any.  

Good people are not always pleasant and pleasant people are not always good. Laws are not always good and criminals are not always bad.
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
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legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1007
Hide your women


After [presumably] learning that your ex was a cheating piece of shit, you became a better husband?
A better husband to whom, may I ask, to your cheating ex?  
Did she ...deserve a better husband?

Doesn't matter. If you love someone, you give them what they need, not what they deserve. If you love yourself, you become the person who has the option to trade up.



Quote
Farting at the opera doesn't make you a criminal either.  Just unpleasant.
Can we agree that not everyone who is !criminal = hero?

Sure. But are some criminals also heroes? (this is where people who criminally exposed wrongdoing like Snowden, Manning and Assange factor in).
legendary
Activity: 1106
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Hide your women
First time since the flashcrash that i've seen the Bitstamp orderbook stacked higher on the bid side  Grin

haven't you heard? The Four Punch Raiders-excuse me-"liquidity providers" are on OKC now.

you have any good reading material pertaining to that?

is that supposed to be bullish?

read up a few posts.

It's bullish if you think pump-and dumps are bullish. They always target the margin bears after squeezing the leveraged bulls.  We're not going anywhere sustainably until this block size crap is resolved.
legendary
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It's bullshit news that if you are cheering on you spouse and you want to keep up the moral facade it's can be bought with Bitcoin. For everything else there's Master Card.

Apparently  keeping up the moral facade is "life affirming".  Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 1218
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First time since the flashcrash that i've seen the Bitstamp orderbook stacked higher on the bid side  Grin

haven't you heard? The Four Punch Raiders-excuse me-"liquidity providers" are on OKC now.

you have any good reading material pertaining to that?

is that supposed to be bullish?
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1007
Hide your women
First time since the flashcrash that i've seen the Bitstamp orderbook stacked higher on the bid side  Grin

haven't you heard? The Four Punch Raiders-excuse me-"liquidity providers" are on OKC now.
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
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