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Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 21509. (Read 26732153 times)

legendary
Activity: 1859
Merit: 1001

droning waffle

>> (i have no morals)  <<

more droning waffle



Agreed!

If it wasnt for being lumped in with moral-less entities such as this wall of waffle-text posting clown, things would be much more comfortable.

it feels as though a bunch of lonely shut-ins have joined us and claimed us as their own - and there are millions more yet to arrive...

As much as we all want increased adoption, knowing the vast majority of them will be no morals having, life-story repeat-whining d-bags just makes me cringe.

legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
Remember those valiant new core developers, who were defending bitcoin against the fork that the Evil Lords Gavin and Mike wanted?  Seems that they now have a little ittyy bitty forklet of their own happening now...
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
Meanwhile, the sovereign bond holders, are calculating their similarly devised BPI in the nominal trillions of $ equiv.
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
What happens to "bagholder pain index" when price exceeds $1200 ? Do we reach negative pain? Just like negative interest rates?
It would go negative after a prolonged ATH, at least with currently held coins. It could also approach infinity with a mass exodus from the asset to better vehicles or in the chance of a protocol failure.

The BND numbers that I posted are the minimum and maximum that the bagholders's should expect to get back, without being greedy.  To satisfy their expectations, they would have to find new investors willing to invest between 483 million and 17.2 billion USD in bitcoin.

The BPI could be defined as what the current holders expect to get back, minus what they would get back if they all sold their coins today with no slippage. That is, the BPI would be the BND minus the market cap, which today is 3.65 billion USD; which gives between −3.16 billion (meaning that the bagholders as a whole could profit that much) and +13.5 billion (meaning that they could have that much loss), or anything in between.



sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
I agree that the built-in 10% ROI is superfluous. It's either -100% or (x)%+ in this game. Best to just stick with the actual values, as expectations will be scattered everywhere.
hero member
Activity: 513
Merit: 511
I just did an estimate of the "Bitcoin National Debt" (BND), which is the minimum amount that the bitcoin system "owes" to the people who are holding bitcoins.   It is between 483 million and 17.2 billion USD.

For example, someone who bought 10 BTC a year ago must have paid close to 600 $/Ƀ, the market price at that time.  Therefore, he must be expecting to get at least 6600 $ if he were to sell or spend those bitcoins -- the 6000 $ that he invested, plus 10%/year of return.   By doing that math for every bitcoin and adding the results we would get the BND.

Unfortunately, there is no way of knowing when any given lump of bitcoin was bought by its current owner.  The purchase may not even have been recorded in the blockchain (e.g. if it was bought in an exchange and left there).  We can only assume that the last purchase of a bitcoin that was mined on day X will (almost) surely have occurred on date X or after that.  Therefore, by looking at the minimum and maximum price in that interval, we can get uper and lower bounds to the expectations of its owner.  

For example, the 25 bitcoins that were mined on 2014-04-01 (when the price was ~450) may have been bought by their present owner(s)  on 2014-06-01 (when the price was at its highest, ~680) or on  2015-01-14 (when the price was at its lowest, ~150).  So, the current owners of those bitcoins, even if they are happy with a 10%/year return on investment, now expect to get from them between 25 × 150 $ and 25 × 680 $ plus the 10%/year.

I may post more details later if I get the time.


Too many variables to draw reliable conclusions concerning cause and effect, but could make for interesting data points in themselves.

"National debt" is wrong, even with tongue firmly in cheek, a debt is a promise to repay... which bitcoin doesn't promise. The exchange rate volatility risk is foisted upon current owners and traders (not rights to future labor and income), and rightly so.

Maybe "bagholder pain index" or BPI can be produced, at least partially, with this data.

What happens to "bagholder pain index" when price exceeds $1200 ? Do we reach negative pain? Just like negative interest rates?

It just looks like just a fancy way to compare what the miners/buyers would expect as return (in USD) for "investing" into bitcoin. Seems odd, is all I'm saying. Why not just declare a loss if one has been hodling between November 5th 2014 and now? I mean, if you bought/mined bitcoin between then and the first day of this year, your bitcoins are definitely worth less than what you bought/mined them at.

So, this "debt" looks like a way to exaggerate the now-dying downtrend.
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
I just did an estimate of the "Bitcoin National Debt" (BND), which is the minimum amount that the bitcoin system "owes" to the people who are holding bitcoins.   It is between 483 million and 17.2 billion USD.

For example, someone who bought 10 BTC a year ago must have paid close to 600 $/Ƀ, the market price at that time.  Therefore, he must be expecting to get at least 6600 $ if he were to sell or spend those bitcoins -- the 6000 $ that he invested, plus 10%/year of return.   By doing that math for every bitcoin and adding the results we would get the BND.

Unfortunately, there is no way of knowing when any given lump of bitcoin was bought by its current owner.  The purchase may not even have been recorded in the blockchain (e.g. if it was bought in an exchange and left there).  We can only assume that the last purchase of a bitcoin that was mined on day X will (almost) surely have occurred on date X or after that.  Therefore, by looking at the minimum and maximum price in that interval, we can get uper and lower bounds to the expectations of its owner.  

For example, the 25 bitcoins that were mined on 2014-04-01 (when the price was ~450) may have been bought by their present owner(s)  on 2014-06-01 (when the price was at its highest, ~680) or on  2015-01-14 (when the price was at its lowest, ~150).  So, the current owners of those bitcoins, even if they are happy with a 10%/year return on investment, now expect to get from them between 25 × 150 $ and 25 × 680 $ plus the 10%/year.

I may post more details later if I get the time.


Too many variables to draw reliable conclusions concerning cause and effect, but could make for interesting data points in themselves.

"National debt" is wrong, even with tongue firmly in cheek, a debt is a promise to repay... which bitcoin doesn't promise. The exchange rate volatility risk is foisted upon current owners and traders (not rights to future labor and income), and rightly so.

Maybe "bagholder pain index" or BPI can be produced, at least partially, with this data.

What happens to "bagholder pain index" when price exceeds $1200 ? Do we reach negative pain? Just like negative interest rates?

It would go negative after a prolonged ATH, at least with currently held coins. It could also approach infinity with a mass exodus from the asset to better vehicles or in the chance of a protocol failure.
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
"National debt" is wrong, even with tongue firmly in cheek, a debt is a promise to repay... which bitcoin doesn't promise.

Of course.  It is only a "moral" debt, that no one has any obligation to pay...  Undecided

Quote
Maybe "bagholder pain index" or BPI can be produced, at least partially, with this data.

That is a rather indelicate way of saying, but it is precisely what it is: how big is the bag that the bag-holders are holding...
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1038
Trusted Bitcoiner
I just did an estimate of the "Bitcoin National Debt" (BND), which is the minimum amount that the bitcoin system "owes" to the people who are holding bitcoins.   It is between 483 million and 17.2 billion USD.

For example, someone who bought 10 BTC a year ago must have paid close to 600 $/Ƀ, the market price at that time.  Therefore, he must be expecting to get at least 6600 $ if he were to sell or spend those bitcoins -- the 6000 $ that he invested, plus 10%/year of return.   By doing that math for every bitcoin and adding the results we would get the BND.

Unfortunately, there is no way of knowing when any given lump of bitcoin was bought by its current owner.  The purchase may not even have been recorded in the blockchain (e.g. if it was bought in an exchange and left there).  We can only assume that the last purchase of a bitcoin that was mined on day X will (almost) surely have occurred on date X or after that.  Therefore, by looking at the minimum and maximum price in that interval, we can get uper and lower bounds to the expectations of its owner.  

For example, the 25 bitcoins that were mined on 2014-04-01 (when the price was ~450) may have been bought by their present owner(s)  on 2014-06-01 (when the price was at its highest, ~680) or on  2015-01-14 (when the price was at its lowest, ~150).  So, the current owners of those bitcoins, even if they are happy with a 10%/year return on investment, now expect to get from them between 25 × 150 $ and 25 × 680 $ plus the 10%/year.

I may post more details later if I get the time.


Too many variables to draw reliable conclusions concerning cause and effect, but could make for interesting data points in themselves.

"National debt" is wrong, even with tongue firmly in cheek, a debt is a promise to repay... which bitcoin doesn't promise. The exchange rate volatility risk is foisted upon current owners and traders (not rights to future labor and income), and rightly so.

Maybe "bagholder pain index" or BPI can be produced, at least partially, with this data.

What happens to "bagholder pain index" when price exceeds $1200 ? Do we reach negative pain? Just like negative interest rates?

same acronym different meaning BPI Bagholder Pleasure Index, this would be a really useful Technical Indicator
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1000
@theshmadz
I just did an estimate of the "Bitcoin National Debt" (BND), which is the minimum amount that the bitcoin system "owes" to the people who are holding bitcoins.   It is between 483 million and 17.2 billion USD.

For example, someone who bought 10 BTC a year ago must have paid close to 600 $/Ƀ, the market price at that time.  Therefore, he must be expecting to get at least 6600 $ if he were to sell or spend those bitcoins -- the 6000 $ that he invested, plus 10%/year of return.   By doing that math for every bitcoin and adding the results we would get the BND.

Unfortunately, there is no way of knowing when any given lump of bitcoin was bought by its current owner.  The purchase may not even have been recorded in the blockchain (e.g. if it was bought in an exchange and left there).  We can only assume that the last purchase of a bitcoin that was mined on day X will (almost) surely have occurred on date X or after that.  Therefore, by looking at the minimum and maximum price in that interval, we can get uper and lower bounds to the expectations of its owner.  

For example, the 25 bitcoins that were mined on 2014-04-01 (when the price was ~450) may have been bought by their present owner(s)  on 2014-06-01 (when the price was at its highest, ~680) or on  2015-01-14 (when the price was at its lowest, ~150).  So, the current owners of those bitcoins, even if they are happy with a 10%/year return on investment, now expect to get from them between 25 × 150 $ and 25 × 680 $ plus the 10%/year.

I may post more details later if I get the time.


Too many variables to draw reliable conclusions concerning cause and effect, but could make for interesting data points in themselves.

"National debt" is wrong, even with tongue firmly in cheek, a debt is a promise to repay... which bitcoin doesn't promise. The exchange rate volatility risk is foisted upon current owners and traders (not rights to future labor and income), and rightly so.

Maybe "bagholder pain index" or BPI can be produced, at least partially, with this data.

What happens to "bagholder pain index" when price exceeds $1200 ? Do we reach negative pain? Just like negative interest rates?
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
I just did an estimate of the "Bitcoin National Debt" (BND), which is the minimum amount that the bitcoin system "owes" to the people who are holding bitcoins.   It is between 483 million and 17.2 billion USD.

For example, someone who bought 10 BTC a year ago must have paid close to 600 $/Ƀ, the market price at that time.  Therefore, he must be expecting to get at least 6600 $ if he were to sell or spend those bitcoins -- the 6000 $ that he invested, plus 10%/year of return.   By doing that math for every bitcoin and adding the results we would get the BND.

Unfortunately, there is no way of knowing when any given lump of bitcoin was bought by its current owner.  The purchase may not even have been recorded in the blockchain (e.g. if it was bought in an exchange and left there).  We can only assume that the last purchase of a bitcoin that was mined on day X will (almost) surely have occurred on date X or after that.  Therefore, by looking at the minimum and maximum price in that interval, we can get uper and lower bounds to the expectations of its owner.  

For example, the 25 bitcoins that were mined on 2014-04-01 (when the price was ~450) may have been bought by their present owner(s)  on 2014-06-01 (when the price was at its highest, ~680) or on  2015-01-14 (when the price was at its lowest, ~150).  So, the current owners of those bitcoins, even if they are happy with a 10%/year return on investment, now expect to get from them between 25 × 150 $ and 25 × 680 $ plus the 10%/year.

I may post more details later if I get the time.


Too many variables to draw reliable conclusions concerning cause and effect, but could make for interesting data points in themselves.

"National debt" is wrong, even with tongue firmly in cheek, a debt is a promise to repay... which bitcoin doesn't promise. The exchange rate volatility risk is foisted upon current owners and traders (not rights to future labor and income), and rightly so.

Maybe "bagholder pain index" or BPI can be produced, at least partially, with this data.
legendary
Activity: 2856
Merit: 1075
guys wtf...http://www.conspiracyclub.co/2015/07/02/anonymous-warns-u-s-citizens-to-prepare-for-impending-disaster/    just fkn watch this, ive been saying it for a while but to see this and because of crypto i (  and you guys ) have researched money ,its background, its debt and its fuckin true, usa is fkd and they prob take most of us down with them, VERY VERY SOON. Also makes me think why lawsky left his position as  New York State's first Superintendent of Financial Services for a new job as a Bitcoin advisor. http://nypost.com/2015/05/20/ny-financial-watchdog-ben-lawsky-leaving-to-start-firm/  

also please read....http://www.xat.org/xat/worldbank.html  

im stocking up on crypto , dont care about price if its $1 or $1m per btc, as long as ive got btc and other good crypto.
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
I just did an estimate of the "Bitcoin National Debt" (BND), which is the minimum amount that the bitcoin system "owes" to the people who are holding bitcoins.   It is between 483 million and 17.2 billion USD.

For example, someone who bought 10 BTC a year ago must have paid close to 600 $/Ƀ, the market price at that time.  Therefore, he must be expecting to get at least 6600 $ if he were to sell or spend those bitcoins -- the 6000 $ that he invested, plus 10%/year of return.   By doing that math for every bitcoin and adding the results we would get the BND.

Unfortunately, there is no way of knowing when any given lump of bitcoin was bought by its current owner.  The purchase may not even have been recorded in the blockchain (e.g. if it was bought in an exchange and left there).  We can only assume that the last purchase of a bitcoin that was mined on day X will (almost) surely have occurred on date X or after that.  Therefore, by looking at the minimum and maximum price in that interval, we can get uper and lower bounds to the expectations of its owner.  

For example, the 25 bitcoins that were mined on 2014-04-01 (when the price was ~450) may have been bought by their present owner(s)  on 2014-06-01 (when the price was at its highest, ~680) or on  2015-01-14 (when the price was at its lowest, ~150).  So, the current owners of those bitcoins, even if they are happy with a 10%/year return on investment, now expect to get from them between 25 × 150 $ and 25 × 680 $ plus the 10%/year.

I may post more details later if I get the time.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1000
@theshmadz



I thought I had 'big brass ones' just hoarding all my LTC you Sir have such big brass ones you must 'clank' when you cross your legs... Smiley

I sir salute you! and shall cower in the LTC trenches as you march towards the sound of ASIC guns

(shudder soooo scary)

I'm just playing with house money, take a shot here and there and hope it pans out.

I'm curious though, how much litecoin per month per titan are you getting?    I think the Neptune were down to about 1.5 btc per month each before summer heat got to me and I turned them off.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 500

What keeps me away from litecoin is the fact that in the end it's just like any other shitcoin expect its the most popular because it was the first really good alt. but sooner or later it's going to get displaced as the king of alts, we'll see a few brand new alts emerge that are built from the ground up, something like NXT or ETH, "bitcoin 2.0" shit coins, that will actually offer something other than bitcoin with a few tweets, and also side chains are going to make altcoins more and more irelevent. I can't imagine how LTC will hold up in the long term.

Yep agreed and IMO bitcoin will also be replaced as the most valued crypto. Sooner or later another "coin" will be out there with enough advantages to make bitcoin look like 2009. To be honest, I feel like I'm at the stone age every time I need to wait for a block to clear my transaction. The huge blockchain is another issue, what is it now, like 35GB? The wasteful mining is also a problem, we're basically just burning energy which could be used for better thing like food, heating or transportation. Bitcoin is a cool experiment and I'm privileged to have had the opportunity to follow it's growing for more than two and a half year, but this is not our new world reserve currency. Neither is litecoin, monero or NXT. ETH perhaps, but I'd found that unlikely too.

The question is if bitcoin can do one more bubble.  Cool
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
legendary
Activity: 1792
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legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1045
i LOVE seeing the price at 256.

next stop 512 plz.
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