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Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 21955. (Read 26609282 times)

legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1000
It's so sad that this epic thread has become so focused on trolls. "The list", the ignore function and the simple fact that you can read stupid post quickly and ignore them in your head works fine for me. But the latest events where some anonymous person with admin privileges is deleting bulks of posts is not good.

It's not about moderating messages that are "off topic". That is a good thing (yet there should be a lot of slack before you shut somebody up, humor is important).

But a person is deleting all posts questioning this troll evironment.

Gentlemen, this must end! (Adam, what is going on?)

P.S. Be careful while quoting trolls. It's common here to put on ignore trolls along with those who quotes them.
P.S I agree. But trolls are also deleting posts at a high rate now. It's not Adam doing it. It's a guy that doesn't want to be identified.
Interesting, you really think that trolls are erasing their posts at this point? Stop, it and you know it isn't likely. There's something happening in this thread and none of us are controlling it atm. If you think so, then hallelujah for you. There's some extra activity going on here that doesn't normally happen, go figure.

Read the title of this thread and the first page.  It is so far off what it is intended for it's ridiculous.  It's not a place for trolls, or for people like JStolfi to continue not getting it.  Are you guys aware that there are a whole host of other sub-forums on BCT?

Whomever is cleaning this up, thank-you.  It's about goddamn time.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1000
@theshmadz
I'll leave the rest to your imagination.




Is kinda textbook...


Yeah, but a sucker is born every minute.

Some times when you're looking at bottoms the old phrase must be remembered...

"good from far, but far from good"

Zoom out and the picture of the last month looks quite different.



Of course you can cherry pick any time frame you like that fits your narrative.
legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1000
103 days, 21 hours and 10 minutes.
I'll leave the rest to your imagination.




Is kinda textbook...


Yeah, but a sucker is born every minute.
sr. member
Activity: 454
Merit: 250
I'll leave the rest to your imagination.




Is kinda textbook...
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1000
@theshmadz
Hmmm, late late Sunday night mini-pump under way?

Could be a precursor for Norway's prediction?

Nah, that was a long shot all along, most likely more sideways until the end of summer.
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
I'll leave the rest to your imagination.

legendary
Activity: 4018
Merit: 1250
Owner at AltQuick.com


4/20 coming up... will Bitcoin get high?
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
legendary
Activity: 896
Merit: 1000

All that bid depth go from coinbase to finex, or what?

Looks like it, coinbase knew it couldn't fool anyone with it's fake volume

These charts are relative AFAIK; so if BFX had a 20k bidwall pop up, bitstamp and coinbase would appear as almost totally flat. When coinbase had that 5k bidwall, it did the same thing to BFX/Bitstamp, to a lesser degree. Now that it's gone, BFX appears to have a mountain of bids.


Really?

I always thought that the amount of coins was just measured on an individual chart basis, and corresponds to the figures on the y axis of the chart ?

I don't think it was always this way, but you can see they line up by just opening all 3 and checking the y axis scale.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
Who's there?
... [discussion with troll] ...

> @Wary: Leave all that brainy bullshit to the mainstream so-called scientists. All the economic theory we bitcoiners need to know is "the cake is a lie!" & "buy and hold!"

If it's how you perceive my position, you are mistaken. I respect economic theory (at least, microeconomics. No my respect for Keynes et all).

Now, about elasticity of bitcoin price. In general case, you are right. But bitcoin is a special good. Because it is money.

Within your model, the demand for blood is almost fixed, because it is determined by vampires' biochemistry. He needs a pint, no less, no more. That's why price will swing wildly depending on supply.

How about bitcoins? How much of bitcoins do we need? If John is on drugs and buying them for bitcoins, how many bitcoins does he need? If his daily shot costs 100$, he needs 100/price-of-bitcoin.  If Peter invests his salary in bitcoin, how much bitcoins does he need? If he can save $1000/month, he would need $1000/price-of-bitcoin.

What would happen if price of bitcoins doubles? John's and Peter's demand on bitcoin will halves. Because they need not bitcoins themselves, but bitcoin's purchasing power. Which is equal to bitcoin price. On language of economics it means that elastitity of bitcoin price is equal to 1.

So when supply is halved, the price doubles.

In your model it would look like vampire's need for blood changes in inverse proportion to blood's price. When price doubles, need for blood halves: half-pint instead of pint.

P.S. Be careful while quoting trolls. It's common here to put on ignore trolls along with those who quotes them.

legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1441

All that bid depth go from coinbase to finex, or what?

Looks like it, coinbase knew it couldn't fool anyone with it's fake volume

These charts are relative AFAIK; so if BFX had a 20k bidwall pop up, bitstamp and coinbase would appear as almost totally flat. When coinbase had that 5k bidwall, it did the same thing to BFX/Bitstamp, to a lesser degree. Now that it's gone, BFX appears to have a mountain of bids.


Really?

I always thought that the amount of coins was just measured on an individual chart basis, and corresponds to the figures on the y axis of the chart ?
legendary
Activity: 896
Merit: 1000

All that bid depth go from coinbase to finex, or what?

Looks like it, coinbase knew it couldn't fool anyone with it's fake volume

These charts are relative AFAIK; so if BFX had a 20k bidwall pop up, bitstamp and coinbase would appear as almost totally flat. When coinbase had that 5k bidwall, it did the same thing to BFX/Bitstamp, to a lesser degree. Now that it's gone, BFX appears to have a mountain of bids.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
GBTC might start trading on monday, but I would think Gemini/Coin would want to comply with the final BitLicense before they launched.

As I understand, Gemini (the Winkles' exchange) depends only on ordinary bureaucratic licenses (MSB, MTB, whatever).  If  Coinbase can function, they should be able to function too (unless they are based in NY and have to wait for the BitLicense because of that).

The COIN ETF is more complicated: it must be approved by the SEC, which is not just a bureaucratic formality.  There is no way to tell how long the SEC will take to decide, or whather it will get approved at all.  (In fact, I have read somewhere that, the longer the SEC takes to decide, the less likely is that it will be approved.)



See this is the crux of what I'm sure is a tense debate behind the scenes between the industry and regulators.

By all appearances Coinbase is fully compliant w/ all known existing regulations in most states they operate.

AML/KYC/MSB/MTB you name it.

Now statists and "lawmakers" being what they are they can't help but having to try and "regulate" anything new under the sun.

In which case gov puppets like Lawsky assume they have authority to impose largely useless, wholly unnecessary and realistically impracticable regulations, the BitLicenses, under the false pretense of "consumer protection".

The Winklevoss being they corporate shills they are they will sing the praise of such "initiatives". They will go as far as to claim other exchanges operating without being "licensed" could be considered "unregulated".

Companies like Coinbase are satisfied enough with their legal status they feel comfortable operating under current state & federal laws.

It will be interesting to find out what becomes of the BitLicenses after reading the industry's stance on the last revised version.

They are evidently not having it.
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1441
Is that a fact?  Entities that have invested in bitcoin (Fortress, Overstock, DigitalBTC, Tim Draper, The Bitcoin Foundation) seem to have regretted it, and did not want to repeat the experience.  They could have bought shares of BIT from SecondMarket, but they didn't.  They could have bought raw bitcoins (brokers would be happy to assemble large lots for them), but they didn't.  (Risk is not a concern for large investors, they can hire expertise and guard their coins as safely as COIN would do.)

Wall Street obviously does not see bitcoin as being worth more than 220 $/BTC right now...  

Is that a fact?

What are you basing this assumed regret from?  (seemed to have regretted it)

Fortress Investment Group (manages 58 billion $ portfolio): bought 20 M$ in bitcoins in late 2013, reported paper loss of 3.7 M$ on that investment in early 2014, invested some money on Pantera's fund management comany.  I can't find any mention of bitcoin by them after that.

Overstock: They were the first big store to accept bitcoin through BitPay. At first they opted to some percentage of their sales in real bitcoins, but then they stopped doing that, they now get 100% dollars.  At the end of 2014 they held only 340,000 $ worth of bitcoins (~1500 BTC), versus 180 M $ in cash and 10 M $ in precious metals(!). Sales paid in bitcoins dropped after the first months, and amounted to only 3 M $ in 2014 (out of ~ 1.5 billion $ in total sales), all domestic.

DigitalBTC: An australian bitcoin mining and trading company now trying to switch to bitcoin software products.  For the 2nd semester of 2014 they reported 1.2 M$ sales of software, 8.7 M$ revenue from bitcoin trading, 4.6 M$ from mining -- but "Net Loss After Tax of $2.3 million due primarily to non-cash accounting adjustments to the fair value of bitcoin inventory and performance rights and depreciation"

Tim Draper: bought 30'000 BTC at the first USMS auction (~650 $/BTC), 2000 at the second one (~350 $/BTC), did not bid for the third.

The Bitcoin Foundation:  nearly broke, had to let go most of its staff; due in part to them keeping their funds in bitcoin.

Quote
Wait a minute... do you deduce their supposed regret from the fact they did not immediately buy all of the rest of the supply of coins available? hmmmmm.... so how come a single entity has not bought up all of the gold in the world? or the oil? ..........on a separate note do you suppose that "wall street" does not see oil being worth more than its current very low valuation ? that is odd, because wall street thought it was worth almost double this price only last year.. has oil become half as useful, or half as sought after? has it really lost half of its "value" , is there a replacement synthetic on the market to replace the fossil fuel?  or could it be that something else is having an effect on price?

I don't understand your point.  Yes, Wall Street does not see oil as being worth more than 60 $/barrel right now.  So?

"Something else" in relation to what?  How do you propose to measure the value of oil or bitcoin, except by watching how much people are wlling to bid and ask for it?





Just because you are a gold dealer/investor,  it does not mean you buy ALL of the available gold.... not a hard concept to get your head around, and it is no different with BTC, if you have bought tens of millions worth,and that is what you decide to buy,  not buying more does not mean anything concrete at all.  Literally nothing, you assume it is regret but you could easily be wrong, it could be a multitude of reasons, you just like the regret theory.

The "something else" in the case of oil, is that the Saudis have flooded the market with cheap supply, on purpose, and so there is an increase in supply, but it is not an "organic" increase in supply, or the result of a new set of reserves, it is because the Saudis are flooding the market for political reasons, and wall street is just along for the ride, they are not the ones setting the price of oil, they are not controlling the supply, they are merely doing what they do.....  the fact that oil is almost half the price of its ath, is nothing to do with oil being less in demand, and it is nothing to do with it being less useful, it is nothing to do with the fact that oil is suddenly not as useful and it has nothing to do with the properties of oil and what it can (or cannot) do, or what its true "value" is,  in reality, the true "value" of oil is not worth half of what it was last year, and it is not "half as useful".... the reason for the change in price is the result of political manoeuvrings and manipulation on the part of the Saudis. Hence there are "other" considerations in play other than "what wall street thinks it is worth"


The idea that you define how much something is worth by how much people bid and ask for it, is not entirely correct, as the Saudi example shows, and is evident in other forms of business, there are situations where the price does not reflect the true value of an item, easy example, say Walmart decides that they want to run a promotion to get new business, they sell a product that the rest of the market says is worth £10, but walmart sell it for £5, for a period of time, maybe to get more customers, or maybe to hammer a nail into a competitor,  or what about a company that discounts item A, and sells at a loss, but they do so,  so they can sell more of item B at a considerable markup.

There are many possible reasons, why something may sell for a price that is not what one would decide is the true value of the item.

The market does play a role in deciding price, as does supply and demand, but then so does various forms of manipulation by market participants ,for many tactical reasons.

Prices can be suppressed, and/or prices can be inflated depending on circumstances, and objectives.


(ps, also random walk)

 

hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
Who's there?
You don't quite get how supply and demand works. Halving the supply doesn't mean doubling of the price, and vice-versa.
Let me try to explain.

You're on an island with 19 of your friends, and suddenly 10 of you become vampires, who need exactly 1 pint of human blood/day to stay alive. But you're still friends, because vampires or not, you're still bitcoiners.

By strange stroke of luck, it turns out each one of you who is still human can part with a pint of blood/day. Your vampire buddies feed on you, and you have sustainable equilibrium. Being bitcoiners, the humans charge vampires for their blood, as much as possible.

Now imagine what would happen to the price if just one of your human buddies decided to withhold his blood from the market? That's right, a bidding war would ensue for the remaining 9 pints of blood, prices go through the roof, not simply "up by 10%."
Conversely, if one of the vampires died due to sunburn, blood prices would plummet - there's 10 pints available while there's only demand for 9.

This is all meant to illustrate, in way too many words, that a slight change in supply or demand can cause a huge change in price.
If you're still having trouble grasping this, don't hesitate to ask for more help Smiley
Do you have estimates for the price elasticity of bitcoin?

P.S. I like your idea that half of bitcoiners are blood-sucking vampires. That explains a lot  Grin
legendary
Activity: 1442
Merit: 1186

All that bid depth go from coinbase to finex, or what?

Looks like it, coinbase knew it couldn't fool anyone with it's fake volume
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1000
@theshmadz
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
Is that a fact?  Entities that have invested in bitcoin (Fortress, Overstock, DigitalBTC, Tim Draper, The Bitcoin Foundation) seem to have regretted it, and did not want to repeat the experience.  They could have bought shares of BIT from SecondMarket, but they didn't.  They could have bought raw bitcoins (brokers would be happy to assemble large lots for them), but they didn't.  (Risk is not a concern for large investors, they can hire expertise and guard their coins as safely as COIN would do.)

Wall Street obviously does not see bitcoin as being worth more than 220 $/BTC right now...  

Is that a fact?

What are you basing this assumed regret from?  (seemed to have regretted it)

Fortress Investment Group (manages 58 billion $ portfolio): bought 20 M$ in bitcoins in late 2013, reported paper loss of 3.7 M$ on that investment in early 2014, invested some money on Pantera's fund management comany.  I can't find any mention of bitcoin by them after that.

Overstock: They were the first big store to accept bitcoin through BitPay. At first they opted to some percentage of their sales in real bitcoins, but then they stopped doing that, they now get 100% dollars.  At the end of 2014 they held only 340,000 $ worth of bitcoins (~1500 BTC), versus 180 M $ in cash and 10 M $ in precious metals(!). Sales paid in bitcoins dropped after the first months, and amounted to only 3 M $ in 2014 (out of ~ 1.5 billion $ in total sales), all domestic.

DigitalBTC: An australian bitcoin mining and trading company now trying to switch to bitcoin software products.  For the 2nd semester of 2014 they reported 1.2 M$ sales of software, 8.7 M$ revenue from bitcoin trading, 4.6 M$ from mining -- but "Net Loss After Tax of $2.3 million due primarily to non-cash accounting adjustments to the fair value of bitcoin inventory and performance rights and depreciation"

Tim Draper: bought 30'000 BTC at the first USMS auction (~650 $/BTC), 2000 at the second one (~350 $/BTC), did not bid for the third.

The Bitcoin Foundation:  nearly broke, had to let go most of its staff; due in part to them keeping their funds in bitcoin.

Quote
Wait a minute... do you deduce their supposed regret from the fact they did not immediately buy all of the rest of the supply of coins available? hmmmmm.... so how come a single entity has not bought up all of the gold in the world? or the oil? ..........on a separate note do you suppose that "wall street" does not see oil being worth more than its current very low valuation ? that is odd, because wall street thought it was worth almost double this price only last year.. has oil become half as useful, or half as sought after? has it really lost half of its "value" , is there a replacement synthetic on the market to replace the fossil fuel?  or could it be that something else is having an effect on price?

I don't understand your point.  Yes, Wall Street does not see oil as being worth more than 60 $/barrel right now.  So?

"Something else" in relation to what?  How do you propose to measure the value of oil or bitcoin, except by watching how much people are wlling to bid and ask for it?
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