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Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 24065. (Read 26609921 times)

legendary
Activity: 2464
Merit: 1145
EDIT: to elaborate further, the problem is that exclusive storage of FIAT on a data structure isn't possible


can you please explain why it wouldn't be possible?

i can imagine a blockchain system where generating blocks is actually transfering "fiat" into "blockchain-fiat", withdrawal could mean sending the "blockchain-fiat" to a genesis block which would destroy it.

legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
playing pasta and eating mandolinos
im pretty sure that we will soonish (1-2 years) see real solutions to the problem of centralized exchanges (fiat <-> crypto).

No, there isn't a 'solution' for this. You can't convert 'fiat' in a 'token' without a issuer of that token. Hence there will never be decentralized exchanges that involve fiat.

Your words are difficult to parse meaningfully.  Could you please rephrase?

I am generally wont to do anything which is claimed to be impossible, if it is easy to do.  Thus I would like to know what you think is impossible.


I understand you are a coder. If that is the case, consider the problem of developing a decentralized exchange between USD and BTC.
It will became evident that it is not possible.
Because while bitcoin has decentralized issuing, USD (or any other fiat) has centralized issuing.
Hence, at best, you can develop a sort-of-decentralized exchange involving pseudo-USD tokens/IOU, released from some kind of provider.
That is the way ripple et all attempted to solve the problem. But a truly decentralized solution is not possible.

EDIT: to elaborate further, the problem is that exclusive storage of FIAT on a data structure isn't possible



legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1030
Sine secretum non libertas


Caption competition... extra points for using MOON Cheesy

Winklevii phone home.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1030
Sine secretum non libertas
im pretty sure that we will soonish (1-2 years) see real solutions to the problem of centralized exchanges (fiat <-> crypto).

No, there isn't a 'solution' for this. You can't convert 'fiat' in a 'token' without a issuer of that token. Hence there will never be decentralized exchanges that involve fiat.

Your words are difficult to parse meaningfully.  Could you please rephrase?

I am generally wont to do anything which is claimed to be impossible, if it is easy to do.  Thus I would like to know what you think is impossible.
hero member
Activity: 966
Merit: 526
🐺Dogs for President🐺


Caption competition... extra points for using MOON Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 11299
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
I can taste the despair right now but I prefer to buy during panic...I will hold off a little longer.

I agree that we seem to be in a sort of despair, and it seems that we already had various panics.  I am doubting whether any of us can count on additional panics... so despair it is, but this dispair cannot last forever... 1 to 8 months more at most, no?   You really think that a flat or downward trending market is going to go beyond 8 more months?  Anyone?
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
playing pasta and eating mandolinos
im pretty sure that we will soonish (1-2 years) see real solutions to the problem of centralized exchanges (fiat <-> crypto).

No, there isn't a 'solution' for this. You can't convert 'fiat' in a 'token' without a issuer of that token. Hence there will never be decentralized exchanges that involve fiat.
legendary
Activity: 2464
Merit: 1145
Just drop to $200 already and wash out the weak hands
Why not 140$? Or 80$? Or 20$?
Oh wait, then YOU will be the weak hand...

I already bought some @ $350. Bearwhale driven or not, the price is right. This is gentlemen...

Yeah, I am not referring to what a fair price would be but the flaw in his thinking.

It is not healthy to shakeout investors, after a certain point you 'kill' the asset.

IMHO we should NOT fall below 340$, it would be really bad (only with a flash crash and then immediately bouncing up back).

I'm not sold on the idea that  Bitcoin is dead if it falls below some price X.

Keep in mind, price decreased by factor 16 and recovered anyway, 2011 to 2013. I'm not  convinced yet we'll make a new significant low from here, but obviously I could be wrong. So let's say we'd go below 340, then 320, then back to 270, fall through and go below the previous ATH.

Going back below the previous ATH would be a first in BTC trading, that's for sure, but so what? What it would do is most likely kill all the previously held speculative notions, the idea that we're practically ensured to see an exponential price/mcap increase, or that "Bitcoin will go to 1 million USD eventually".

In that case there's a good chance a vast number of current investors would leave for good, and price would deflate to level that seems laughably low right now... but then what? Others will pick it up from there, as long as there is the confidence that Bitcoin is useful for something after all. Cue the trolls: "It's about as useful as beanie babies or tulips". I don't need to tell you that's just noise. The usefulness of Bitcoin (or crypto in general) is undisputed. What is up for debate is the scale at which it will be used (and, as a consequence, what the valuation of the network should be).

What I'm getting at is: the worst case you describe is effectively a worst case for the previous valuation model of Bitcoin, but that's not quite identical to the death of Bitcoin (or its valuation, for that matter).


Oda Krell:  

I agree with everything you say here, yet I believe that one aspect that affects perceptions of value remains whether or NOT various entities are engaging in Bitcoin scams and potentially faking the existence of coins through forms of fractional reserve banking (maybe kind of like Gox).  IMHO, even those kinds of scams and rip-offs and corruption will NOT kill bitcoin, but they will have tendencies to deflate BTC prices and affect perceptions of BTC value.

[...]


im pretty sure that we will soonish (1-2 years) see real solutions to the problem of centralized exchanges (fiat <-> crypto).

just the fact that banks are already experimenting with blockchain technology is the first step to it.
just imagine that bank money will be able to freely transfered to/on a blockchain system; that will enable future decentralized exchanges to run without problems.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 11299
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
Just drop to $200 already and wash out the weak hands
Why not 140$? Or 80$? Or 20$?
Oh wait, then YOU will be the weak hand...

I already bought some @ $350. Bearwhale driven or not, the price is right. This is gentlemen...

Yeah, I am not referring to what a fair price would be but the flaw in his thinking.

It is not healthy to shakeout investors, after a certain point you 'kill' the asset.

IMHO we should NOT fall below 340$, it would be really bad (only with a flash crash and then immediately bouncing up back).

I'm not sold on the idea that  Bitcoin is dead if it falls below some price X.

Keep in mind, price decreased by factor 16 and recovered anyway, 2011 to 2013. I'm not  convinced yet we'll make a new significant low from here, but obviously I could be wrong. So let's say we'd go below 340, then 320, then back to 270, fall through and go below the previous ATH.

Going back below the previous ATH would be a first in BTC trading, that's for sure, but so what? What it would do is most likely kill all the previously held speculative notions, the idea that we're practically ensured to see an exponential price/mcap increase, or that "Bitcoin will go to 1 million USD eventually".

In that case there's a good chance a vast number of current investors would leave for good, and price would deflate to level that seems laughably low right now... but then what? Others will pick it up from there, as long as there is the confidence that Bitcoin is useful for something after all. Cue the trolls: "It's about as useful as beanie babies or tulips". I don't need to tell you that's just noise. The usefulness of Bitcoin (or crypto in general) is undisputed. What is up for debate is the scale at which it will be used (and, as a consequence, what the valuation of the network should be).

What I'm getting at is: the worst case you describe is effectively a worst case for the previous valuation model of Bitcoin, but that's not quite identical to the death of Bitcoin (or its valuation, for that matter).


Oda Krell: 

I agree with everything you say here, yet I believe that one aspect that affects perceptions of value remains whether or NOT various entities are engaging in Bitcoin scams and potentially faking the existence of coins through forms of fractional reserve banking (maybe kind of like Gox).  IMHO, even those kinds of scams and rip-offs and corruption will NOT kill bitcoin, but they will have tendencies to deflate BTC prices and affect perceptions of BTC value.

I am fairly confident that we are going to see BTC prices in the $10k to $30k range in the next 5 years  and possibly even more, so long as there is some semblance of continued adoption in our current direction, yet it also seems likely that we still have to experience continued and ongoing downward price manipulations.  At some point, probably, some of these larger manipulator players are going to perceive it to be in their interest to manipulate BTC prices upwards - and yes, we will all want to be onboard when that begins to occur and the momentum kicks in... b/c I would think that there is quite a bit of smart money that is just sitting on the side and just waiting to enter - but they do NOT want to enter while there remains some downward momentum and seeming incentives to push the price into the $200s and possibly lower than that... double digits do seem nearly impossible, but I would NOT even rule that out at this point.
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
sr. member
Activity: 437
Merit: 250
What's with this trending down?

I thought the bear market was ogre Cry
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
thanks to DPR's stupidity browsing his Silk Road admin panel in a public library and not encrypting his Bitcoin wallets.

The FBI says that they got to him because SilkRoad used a captcha link in a way that exposed its real IP.   After that, I would guess that they followed him for a while, and haced into his computers, until they felt that they had enough evidence.  They got his email, for instance, where he allegedly discusses the murder of some blackmailer.  So, even if he encrypted the wallet, they may have captured the password.  The library may not have been a mistake, it may have been just the place that the FBI chose for the arrest. 

Anyway, as others pointed out, he made a deal with the gov to have the coins auctioned now.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000

Id prefer individuals get comfortable with bitcoin on their own but the ETF will be a bridge for the less tech savvy


To invest in BTC yes, but it does not give them any means to actually use it on a day to day basis, which is what is needed for success

prophetx's post this morning does an excellent job of spelling out what is needed IMO. I really don't see that an ETF does anything but 'perhaps' help fuel a speculative bubble and possibly fuel some hype and get people looking. If that's what you want, cool. But long-term success depends upon much much  more.

EDIT : I can see from the first part of the sentence that you do want more than this  Wink

legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
We already have another looming 100k (or was it 90k?) auction on the horizon thanks to DPR's stupidity browsing his Silk Road admin panel in a public library and not encrypting his Bitcoin wallets. I don't want to consider another 100k Winklecoins.

But if the Winkles have any say in it, they will probably hold off until the price suits them better, and the general trend, because it will strongly influence the demand.

If the ETF will so strongly influence the demand then why wouldn't they hold enjoying large capital gains and, if they really decide they want to get out, slowly sell off some on the exchanges.

Blitz is saying that the general trend strongly influences demand for the BTC, and right now, whatever your view, it is very hard to argue that we have a strong uptrend in place. Launching the ETF (if it gets approved) in a strong uptrend is the sensible thing to do . If they launched it now TBH I think it would be a disaster for them and the markets. You don't sell many umbrellas when the sun is shining. I guess some people like to use them as sunshades, but that's probably not the biggest market sector  Wink


I think you're over thinking the launch date.. That's subject to approval by the SEC if they had it they'd be listing asap IMO

Honestly, I think the whole ETF thing has been over-thought and over-hyped, but we will see. For now, I really don't give damn about it, and think it is a lot further off than people think.

legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1007
Hide your women
We already have another looming 100k (or was it 90k?) auction on the horizon thanks to DPR's stupidity browsing his Silk Road admin panel in a public library and not encrypting his Bitcoin wallets. I don't want to consider another 100k Winklecoins.

But if the Winkles have any say in it, they will probably hold off until the price suits them better, and the general trend, because it will strongly influence the demand.

I have no evidence that the Winklevi are any good at market timing. It seems to me that any new big players will wait until current big holders or groups of holders dump before entering the market. Anyone who NEEDS Bitcoin to go up any time soon has to be feeling enormous stress that is building until it will burst.

This is a vicious game and if you are not tough or fast, you will get eaten.
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
We already have another looming 100k (or was it 90k?) auction on the horizon thanks to DPR's stupidity browsing his Silk Road admin panel in a public library and not encrypting his Bitcoin wallets. I don't want to consider another 100k Winklecoins.

But if the Winkles have any say in it, they will probably hold off until the price suits them better, and the general trend, because it will strongly influence the demand.

If the ETF will so strongly influence the demand then why wouldn't they hold enjoying large capital gains and, if they really decide they want to get out, slowly sell off some on the exchanges.

Blitz is saying that the general trend strongly influences demand for the BTC, and right now, whatever your view, it is very hard to argue that we have a strong uptrend in place. Launching the ETF (if it gets approved) in a strong uptrend is the sensible thing to do . If they launched it now TBH I think it would be a disaster for them and the markets. You don't sell many umbrellas when the sun is shining. I guess some people like to use them as sunshades, but that's probably not the biggest market sector  Wink


I think you're over thinking the launch date.. That's subject to approval by the SEC if they had it they'd be listing asap IMO


Honestly, I think the whole ETF thing has been over-thought and over-hyped, but we will see. For now, I really don't give damn about it, and think it is a lot further off than people think.

Id prefer individuals get comfortable with bitcoin on their own but the ETF will be a bridge for the less tech savvy.
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
I wonder if people sold bitcoin, and shorted old, lol and or just went fiat to buy it at a bottom?
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
We already have another looming 100k (or was it 90k?) auction on the horizon thanks to DPR's stupidity browsing his Silk Road admin panel in a public library and not encrypting his Bitcoin wallets. I don't want to consider another 100k Winklecoins.

But if the Winkles have any say in it, they will probably hold off until the price suits them better, and the general trend, because it will strongly influence the demand.

If the ETF will so strongly influence the demand then why wouldn't they hold enjoying large capital gains and, if they really decide they want to get out, slowly sell off some on the exchanges.

Blitz is saying that the general trend strongly influences demand for the BTC, and right now, whatever your view, it is very hard to argue that we have a strong uptrend in place. Launching the ETF (if it gets approved) in a strong uptrend is the sensible thing to do . If they launched it now TBH I think it would be a disaster for them and the markets. You don't sell many umbrellas when the sun is shining. I guess some people like to use them as sunshades, but that's probably not the biggest market sector  Wink


I think you're over thinking the launch date.. That's subject to approval by the SEC if they had it they'd be listing asap IMO

Honestly, I think the whole ETF thing has been over-thought and over-hyped, but we will see. For now, I really don't give damn about it, and think it is a lot further off than people think.
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