When you guys trade BTC you need to take into account all the major markets such as BitFinex, BitStamp, OKCoin and BTCChina.
Problem is that the USD/CNY exchange rate differs and its hard to find a perfect long/short on all the different bitcoin markets.
BTCChina is by far the largest and should get the most importance.
Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 26502. (Read 26608284 times)
August 04, 2014, 07:23:33 PM
August 04, 2014, 07:17:23 PM
It works both ways you know? Why should retailers accept bitcoin? Except no transaction fee on a couple of purchases from a few internet geeks. Why spend the hours educating myself on it, make sure I'm compliant, etc etc.
Retailers like rich customers - means larger revenues.
No fraud - means larger profit margins.
August 04, 2014, 07:12:51 PM
Not really leveling expectations as much as commenting on it from a consumer standpoint. Why spend BTC and buy it back, when I can get cash back for using my credit card?
BTC isn't for everything. But if you own some, it is in your interest to induce vendors to accept it. When vendors offer discounts, it is pretty obvious why you would use BTC.
Because BTC is a preferred savings vehicle for volatility-tolerant long-term savers desiring wealth appreciation, a substantial amount of wealth is stored in BTC, and hence it is in the interest of vendors to support a client's preference for BTC payments. Because the value of held BTC increases as the size of the economy grows, it is in the interests of long-term holders to transact in BTC. It is a win-win situation for both sides of any transaction, therefore. Since it is in everyone's interest to transact in BTC, it seems inevitable that an increasing share of transactions will be conducted in BTC.
Since is costs about 3% (more like 12-15% with chargebacks) for a vendor to accept your credit card, you can anticipate spending at least 10% less on any given item when you purchase it with bitcoin. In essence, unless you are dealing with a reputable vendor, you are self-insuring instead of relying on the processor to insure your transaction. If you deal primarily with reputable vendors, this is a particularly good deal for you, as a consumer.
August 04, 2014, 06:59:52 PM
August 04, 2014, 06:34:01 PM
The fact that you provide all the private information required to access the entire account with every CC transaction is a HUGE disadvantage vs. Bitcoin. If there's one thing I am positive of, it's that all financial transactions will eventually move away from that model to bitcoin or something else that doesn't have this glaring hole.
August 04, 2014, 06:33:45 PM
i can't wait til we get to the good ole days of "CHOO CHOO MOTHER FUCKER"...
August 04, 2014, 06:32:33 PM
August 04, 2014, 06:19:12 PM
Your points about debt are irrelevant, since BTC is not debt. Why would I spend my assets (BTC), when I can spend my assets ($$) by using a credit card and thereby get paid for it?
I pay my credit card off in full every month, but I would love nothing more than to ditch it and never look back. My problems with credit cards:
- I don't want to borrow money that I don't need just to buy something online.
- I don't want spend 5 minutes entering my credit card details and personal information, especially when the site later rejects it because "I'm Canadian."
- It's annoying to log into my online banking to pay off my credit card and I don't like setting things to "auto pay." I just want to pay cash online once and be done with it!
- Approximately once a year something "goes wrong" and any benefits are washed away.
- Examples of things going wrong:
+ early this year my credit card was suspended because I made a sizeable purchase from a luxury women's apparel store. When asked why this triggered a suspension, the CSR said "because you're not a women." I suppose Visa thinks that men don't buy gifts for women. The embarrassment of having my credit card declined on a subsequent purchase (because it was suspended) and then sitting on hold for what felt like half an hour to get the problem sorted out costs more in time and annoyance than any "rewards." <-- and I'm not a dog, I don't want "reward treats," I just want to pay the market price.
+ last year, my bank had a computer problem and one of my payments against my Visa card got cancelled. The bank contacted me to let me know that I should resubmit the payment, but this made the payment late according to Visa. This was just after I had got back from a holiday so I had a large balance on the card. The interest payments I was charged offset any benefits.
+ very recently, my card got charged for something that I didn't purchase. I called Visa and they had a "technical problem" and were unable to cancel my credit card and issue me a new one. The claimed that "it didn't make sense why they couldn't cancel the card--their system just wouldn't let them." But then they said they couldn't open a dispute for the unauthorized charges until they cancelled the card! Anyways, it eventually got sorted out and they removed the fraudulent charges, but the annoyance of making several calls to Visa over the course of a few weeks probably cost me almost a full day of my time in total. In the past, I've just paid small fraudulent charges (for example, I was being charge $3.49 / month for god-knows-what for a few years) because it's usual cheaper and always less annoying than dealing with the problem LOL.
So, for me, the benefits of moving completely to bitcoin would be huge. When you factor in the value of your time and the annoyance of dealing with customer service representatives on the phone, bitcoin is vastly more efficient for me.
August 04, 2014, 06:16:23 PM
Oh and please save the "I used credit card and pay it off right away just to earn cash back/points" speech. If you actually do, you're one of a handful. Hence the billions of dollars in profits from those who don't.
That is the ONLY smart way to use credit cards, and a larger number of people do this than you give credit....
The credit card companies profit enormously from the small percentage of people who do NOT pay off their credit cards every month. There is so much profit in the smaller number that they can afford the rest... also, they charge the extra cost on the merchant side in order that the consumer really does NOT see or consciously consider the extreme quantity of profits that credit card companies are raking in.
August 04, 2014, 06:12:02 PM
http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/im-hoarding-bitcoins-and-no-you-cant-have-any/
Quote
One of the most annoying things about Bitcoin is that it’s so convenient to make payments with it that sometimes it is extremely tempting to spend it and avoid the hassle of using dollars. One of the ways to help deal with the temptation to spend is to demand a Bitcoin discount at any store that accepts Bitcoin. This is perfectly reasonable because not only is the store lowering its own costs by using Bitcoin, but it is asking me to give up an inherently superior commodity.
Hoarders are more important than merchants. If a restaurant downtown starts accepting bitcoins, this does not necessarily create an incentive for anybody to buy more bitcoins. Why would anyone bother if they can still just use a credit card? If you can convince a merchant to accept bitcoins and stop accepting dollars, then I’ll be impressed.
Unless a merchant is offering something that cannot be bought for dollars, or at least offering a discount, he is only benefiting Bitcoin to the extent that he encourages more hoarding. If he immediately converts the bitcoins he receives as payment into dollars, and if his customers only buy bitcoins so as to spend them at his shop shortly thereafter, then neither has much direct effect on Bitcoin’s demand. The real hero is the hoarder behind the scenes who buys from the merchant and enables him to convert his payments into dollars.
Hoarders are more important than merchants. If a restaurant downtown starts accepting bitcoins, this does not necessarily create an incentive for anybody to buy more bitcoins. Why would anyone bother if they can still just use a credit card? If you can convince a merchant to accept bitcoins and stop accepting dollars, then I’ll be impressed.
Unless a merchant is offering something that cannot be bought for dollars, or at least offering a discount, he is only benefiting Bitcoin to the extent that he encourages more hoarding. If he immediately converts the bitcoins he receives as payment into dollars, and if his customers only buy bitcoins so as to spend them at his shop shortly thereafter, then neither has much direct effect on Bitcoin’s demand. The real hero is the hoarder behind the scenes who buys from the merchant and enables him to convert his payments into dollars.
Not to change the topic of the post.
But I think the main problem with bitcoin mass adoption is there are no guarantees against the owner in cases of theft and mis use.
The reason why credit costs more for merchants is because the interbanks get paid most of the interchange fees (interest and transaction fees) and the credit procesors Visa, amex, mc get paid the association fees. But the banks cover most of the costs in case of fraud and stolen cards and accounts and most customers are not liable if the transactions are abided by the rules of the credit card companies. They know this happens alot and to keep commerce moving with more sales this is a built in "expense".
With btc if consumers have their wallets hacked or stolen easily the btc is pretty much gone and it will detract from mass adoption because there is no recourse for refunds. And this will mean less people use it, and less incentive for merchants to adopt it, even though it is good saving for them versus credit card transaction costs.
This isn't an inherent problem with btc itself, it's more a function of a new market without sophisticated financial institutions that will protect the consumer against fraud and theft. The New York regulations make it all the more likely that those institutions will be created.
Whether the problem is inherent to BTC or NOT, as Samsonn25 mentioned, there can be considerable trepidation when individuals realize that they are bearing the costs of fraud or theft, rather than banks.... accordingly, cause a calculation NOT to want to retain value in BTC.....
Accordingly, I have considerable doubts that governmental regulations are going to truly protect individual bitcoin holders, at least NOT in the beginning....
Concedingly, there needs to develop various mechanisms to protect BTC holders from fraud, stealing and mistakes..... in order to increase their incentives to buy into the BTC infrastructure and to hold assets in BTC and to use BTC.
August 04, 2014, 06:02:30 PM
So the day closes at a calm and nice 0% change. Well, the rocket didn't lift up today, but that doesn't mean the rocket launch has been cancelled. It's merely postponed, when the rocket has even more fuel accumulated!!!
August 04, 2014, 06:01:06 PM
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/apple-may-collaborate-visa-mobile-173454485.html + http://www.coindesk.com/visa-exec-network-support-bitcoin-payments/ + http://www.wired.com/2014/07/blockchain-back/ = ?
Equals a mystery?
Are they related, and that is the mystery?
It would be big news if such a mainstream payment system were to include bitcoin...
Do you believe that they are related, Ivanhoe? or are you merely attempting to be especially optimistic regarding bitcoin's future?
August 04, 2014, 05:59:53 PM
August 04, 2014, 05:52:15 PM
Not really leveling expectations as much as commenting on it from a consumer standpoint. Why spend BTC and buy it back, when I can get cash back for using my credit card?
You don't ask such questions on this forum 
Stop spreading FUD, Jorge. There is NO problem raising legitimate questions about how a person may be personally advantaged in spending money in each system.
Certainly, the IRS tax guidance puts some damper for BTC holders to spend their BTC like currency, and my solution to NOT report any of my BTC spending is to buy back BTC soon within the time that I am spending it. Surely, there may be reasons that a person would rather use a credit card over BTC... especially when tax incentives have been structured in such a way to discourage individuals from treating BTC as a currency.
August 04, 2014, 05:43:57 PM
While i won't buy too much, I think ill be buying a little here and there. I use my coin on coinbase for spending purposes, then i buy back what I just spent. I think everyone should do that. Use expedia for hotels (that will be expanding) and overstock, and all others that take bitcoin. If you don't want to part with your coin, do what Im doing. Just replace it, coinbase has an automated feature for this.. quite cool.
Do they offer any discounts for using BTC? Just wondering. I can get cash back rewards for using my credit card to pay for that type of thing. Not that I don't want to support BTC (though I'm not sure spending via Coinbase supports BTC or not)....
I agree we should be using bitcoin as much as possible and auto buying back. That also helps stabilize the price of bitcoin as well if everyone is buying back what they spend.
As far as specifically asking for discounts because we are using bitcoin is a little unfair if you ask me. We want more mainstream use of bitcoin and asking retailers for discounts (at least in the states) is a little off putting. If they choose to offer great, however we should no expect it.
Just my two cents.
Nightowlace: I agree with your general concept of buying back BTC when spending it; however, I remain fairly skeptical about utilizing any auto buy-back system. NONETHELESS, I would advise that investors, attempt to buy back soon before or after a purchase (hopefully within about the same week of the purchase, unless you are pretty confident about some major impending BTC price move that you want to use to your advantage).
August 04, 2014, 05:41:17 PM
It works both ways you know? Why should retailers accept bitcoin? Except no transaction fee on a couple of purchases from a few internet geeks. Why spend the hours educating myself on it, make sure I'm compliant, etc etc.
For retailers it is quite easy, cheap, and risk-free to "accept bitcoins". Last time I looked, Bitpay had an entry program that charged zero from the merchant and something like 1% from the customer, up to 100 US$/month. At the next level, the merchant paid 30 US$/month flat (unless there were 0$ "bitcoin" payment in that month), with a much larger upper limit per month. In any case the merchant did not have to handle or understand bitcoin, as he received just plain old dollars via bank transfer. So he did not have all the risks and accounting headaches that he would have if he REALLY accepted bitcoins.Coinbase gives merchants the option to REALLY receive some of the bitcoin, or keep it in their Coinbase accounts. However I presume that, as regulations for bitcoin trading become more cumbersome, merchants will find that option less and less appealing.
By the way, I hope that everybody is now aware that buying bitcoins to pay a merchant that "accepts bitcoin" implies TWO bank transfer fees plus the Coinbase/Bitpay fee, whereas paying the merchant directly in dollars means just ONE bank transfer fee. Ditto for paying with old bitcoins and then buying back the same amount to "restore the level".
Paying with bitcoins still only makes sense if you have bitcoins that were acquired for less than the current market value, and have decided to sell (without replacing them later). The advantage, in that case, is that part of your purchase will be paid by the traders who buy the coins that Coinbase sells on the exchanges.
August 04, 2014, 05:39:56 PM
Banks and insurance companies
Just who I want to look out for.
August 04, 2014, 05:33:30 PM
http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/im-hoarding-bitcoins-and-no-you-cant-have-any/
Quote
One of the most annoying things about Bitcoin is that it’s so convenient to make payments with it that sometimes it is extremely tempting to spend it and avoid the hassle of using dollars. One of the ways to help deal with the temptation to spend is to demand a Bitcoin discount at any store that accepts Bitcoin. This is perfectly reasonable because not only is the store lowering its own costs by using Bitcoin, but it is asking me to give up an inherently superior commodity.
Hoarders are more important than merchants. If a restaurant downtown starts accepting bitcoins, this does not necessarily create an incentive for anybody to buy more bitcoins. Why would anyone bother if they can still just use a credit card? If you can convince a merchant to accept bitcoins and stop accepting dollars, then I’ll be impressed.
Unless a merchant is offering something that cannot be bought for dollars, or at least offering a discount, he is only benefiting Bitcoin to the extent that he encourages more hoarding. If he immediately converts the bitcoins he receives as payment into dollars, and if his customers only buy bitcoins so as to spend them at his shop shortly thereafter, then neither has much direct effect on Bitcoin’s demand. The real hero is the hoarder behind the scenes who buys from the merchant and enables him to convert his payments into dollars.
Hoarders are more important than merchants. If a restaurant downtown starts accepting bitcoins, this does not necessarily create an incentive for anybody to buy more bitcoins. Why would anyone bother if they can still just use a credit card? If you can convince a merchant to accept bitcoins and stop accepting dollars, then I’ll be impressed.
Unless a merchant is offering something that cannot be bought for dollars, or at least offering a discount, he is only benefiting Bitcoin to the extent that he encourages more hoarding. If he immediately converts the bitcoins he receives as payment into dollars, and if his customers only buy bitcoins so as to spend them at his shop shortly thereafter, then neither has much direct effect on Bitcoin’s demand. The real hero is the hoarder behind the scenes who buys from the merchant and enables him to convert his payments into dollars.
Not to change the topic of the post.
But I think the main problem with bitcoin mass adoption is there are no guarantees against the owner in cases of theft and mis use.
The reason why credit costs more for merchants is because the interbanks get paid most of the interchange fees (interest and transaction fees) and the credit procesors Visa, amex, mc get paid the association fees. But the banks cover most of the costs in case of fraud and stolen cards and accounts and most customers are not liable if the transactions are abided by the rules of the credit card companies. They know this happens alot and to keep commerce moving with more sales this is a built in "expense".
With btc if consumers have their wallets hacked or stolen easily the btc is pretty much gone and it will detract from mass adoption because there is no recourse for refunds. And this will mean less people use it, and less incentive for merchants to adopt it, even though it is good saving for them versus credit card transaction costs.
This isn't an inherent problem with btc itself, it's more a function of a new market without sophisticated financial institutions that will protect the consumer against fraud and theft. The New York regulations make it all the more likely that those institutions will be created.
The NY rules only want more info on the buyers and sellers of the btc, in case they have to trace back to illegal activities.
They dont address wallet security. Imagine people having codes on their cellphones and losing them. This is much easier than losing large amounts of cash or credit.
The regulations address capital reserves and other consumer protections, and obtaining a license from the state reduces the risk for banks and insurance companies to transact in bitcoin.
August 04, 2014, 05:09:02 PM
Yet another prediction.
Someone is accumulating big time, there are almost no sells happening beside those huge sells (probably into their own bids). As soon as the market gets bought up a few ask walls appear ~500BTC and soon after that a 500-1000 dump happens, with no real effect on the market other than stopping it from going up fast. If you watch the walls moving on bitcoinity you can see that they are changing pretty fast. Average bitcoiner (small fish) is not in selling mood these days. I think we will slowly go up and continue to see this behavior. When "they" ( 
) are done, one can epect to see larger and faster moves. There are pretty sophisticated bots active right now on Bitstamp (readding smaller bids all the time, pushing around walls...). TA and even more the orderbook clearly looks bearish as fuck, but that´s what it should like during accumulation time.
Someone is accumulating big time, there are almost no sells happening beside those huge sells (probably into their own bids). As soon as the market gets bought up a few ask walls appear ~500BTC and soon after that a 500-1000 dump happens, with no real effect on the market other than stopping it from going up fast. If you watch the walls moving on bitcoinity you can see that they are changing pretty fast. Average bitcoiner (small fish) is not in selling mood these days. I think we will slowly go up and continue to see this behavior. When "they" (
) are done, one can epect to see larger and faster moves. There are pretty sophisticated bots active right now on Bitstamp (readding smaller bids all the time, pushing around walls...). TA and even more the orderbook clearly looks bearish as fuck, but that´s what it should like during accumulation time.me likee, fonzie, you on something ?
But I fear that's somehow what's going on. Financial manipulation enters a new Era with bitcoin. No audits can save you.
August 04, 2014, 04:59:53 PM
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