Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 26729. (Read 26609620 times)
July 17, 2014, 03:42:38 PM
Regulation can't stop the disruptive power of Bitcoin. Did regulation stopped people from downloading movies and music despite the fact it bothered a lot of industries? They tried, spend a lot of money, failed for years and meanwhile the market found its way to adapt, now music/movies are must cheaper than before and can still be found for "free" for little effort/risk. It will be the same with BTC. They can try to ban it, tax it, complicate it, but they can't stop the technology, much like candle-sellers failed to stop electricity or diligence-guilds failed to stop the telegraph.
July 17, 2014, 03:41:48 PM
Need some crisis somewhere ASAP. Bitcoin has been way too stable for my taste. If I wanted a boring life I would have gone for gold 
Come on BTC, get off your ass.
Come on BTC, get off your ass.
hey that was a nice little pump this morning. slow grind down, quick pump up.... hopefully that little down trend is over.
July 17, 2014, 03:40:00 PM
Need some crisis somewhere ASAP. Bitcoin has been way too stable for my taste. If I wanted a boring life I would have gone for gold
Come on BTC, get off your ass.
Come on BTC, get off your ass.
July 17, 2014, 03:37:54 PM
you want to know how they will regulate Bitcoin in NY state ? http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2aycxs/hi_this_is_ben_lawsky_at_nydfs_here_are_the/cizyqyz
Entities are considered dealing in virtual currencies if:
They transfer Bitcoins on behalf of one person. This includes Bitcoin tipping (/u/changetip), mixers, Blockchain.info Send Shared, CoinJoin, Dark Wallet (200.2n1)
They hold or have control over Bitcoins for their users. This includes Mining pools, Coinbase, Circle, Greenaddress.it, all exchanges. (200.2n2)
They buy or sell Bitcoins as a business activity. This includes Local Bitcoins sellers, #bitcoin-otc. FinCEN statements includes selling physical coinage (including casascius coins) also regulated. (200.2n3)
They create a virtual currency, even if it is decentralized. This includes creating altcoins. In fact, Satoshi would have commited a crime creating Bitcoin without registration. (200.2n5)
They trade any virtual currency, even for another virtual currency. This includes alt coin exchanges. Mintpal, Cryptsy, BTER, etc (200.2n4)
.. to any resident in New York. Web services, even those incorporated overseas, must either comply or block access for NY users. (200.2n)
Entities 'dealing in virtual currency' must:
Perform AML and collect identities, including verification of government issued Photo ID and proof of address, and retain these information for 10 years. (200.15a)
Retain all transaction logs for 10 years, including real name & physical addresses of ALL parties of a transaction - yes, including whoever you are sending to. (200.12a1)
Report all transactions over the USD value of $3000, and file Suspicious Activity Reports. (200.15g4)
Maintain collateral in the form of USD, including collateral for Bitcoin balances. The % as collateral is unspecified.
Retained earnings and profits of in invested in US dollars. They may not keep any profit in Bitcoin. (200.8b)
Forfeit Bitcoins that are inactive for over 5 years to the State of New York - (200.12c)
Not obfuscate any transactions - Bitcoin mixing would be illegal. (200.15f)
Interesting: now these people who creates altcoin would be committing a crime, even satoshi committed a crime following this logic. and NY wants to take your coins, so you wont be able to use your coins as a saving method ? yea so bad news for hodlers.
this is the whole document if you want to read it http://www.dfs.ny.gov/about/press2014/pr1407171-vc.pdf
Entities are considered dealing in virtual currencies if:
They transfer Bitcoins on behalf of one person. This includes Bitcoin tipping (/u/changetip), mixers, Blockchain.info Send Shared, CoinJoin, Dark Wallet (200.2n1)
They hold or have control over Bitcoins for their users. This includes Mining pools, Coinbase, Circle, Greenaddress.it, all exchanges. (200.2n2)
They buy or sell Bitcoins as a business activity. This includes Local Bitcoins sellers, #bitcoin-otc. FinCEN statements includes selling physical coinage (including casascius coins) also regulated. (200.2n3)
They create a virtual currency, even if it is decentralized. This includes creating altcoins. In fact, Satoshi would have commited a crime creating Bitcoin without registration. (200.2n5)
They trade any virtual currency, even for another virtual currency. This includes alt coin exchanges. Mintpal, Cryptsy, BTER, etc (200.2n4)
.. to any resident in New York. Web services, even those incorporated overseas, must either comply or block access for NY users. (200.2n)
Entities 'dealing in virtual currency' must:
Perform AML and collect identities, including verification of government issued Photo ID and proof of address, and retain these information for 10 years. (200.15a)
Retain all transaction logs for 10 years, including real name & physical addresses of ALL parties of a transaction - yes, including whoever you are sending to. (200.12a1)
Report all transactions over the USD value of $3000, and file Suspicious Activity Reports. (200.15g4)
Maintain collateral in the form of USD, including collateral for Bitcoin balances. The % as collateral is unspecified.
Retained earnings and profits of in invested in US dollars. They may not keep any profit in Bitcoin. (200.8b)
Forfeit Bitcoins that are inactive for over 5 years to the State of New York - (200.12c)
Not obfuscate any transactions - Bitcoin mixing would be illegal. (200.15f)
Interesting: now these people who creates altcoin would be committing a crime, even satoshi committed a crime following this logic. and NY wants to take your coins, so you wont be able to use your coins as a saving method ? yea so bad news for hodlers.
this is the whole document if you want to read it http://www.dfs.ny.gov/about/press2014/pr1407171-vc.pdf
Easy solution? Incorporate outside of the US and give them the middle finger. Americans always think their laws apply outside of the US.
the problem is that most likely the other states will follow the same path, Businesses in EU will have a big problem serving US customers, at the end they will have to ban US customers if the hassle is too much for them.
Why do they have to ban them? because the US says so ... bitch please. Non American who are not in America do not have to follow US laws. You can make laws to attack the US customers of these businesses though. Good luck
you have no clue about how the US government operate outside their borders, a sad fact but if US had a different tolerant policy toward others the world would be a better place and not as we see today.
They can do things, because they have a bowling ball grip on everybody through the dollar and international payments. But, they have to hurry to exploit it, and the more they exploit it, the bigger risk of alternatives cropping up. The heat is on.
July 17, 2014, 03:32:55 PM
Buk SA-11
Ah oh. When the reality of this really starts to sink in, this is going to be very bad for Russia. There will be a LOT of pressure.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/17/politics/malaysia-plane-ukraine-repercussions/index.html?iid=article_sidebar
July 17, 2014, 03:31:20 PM
Well, the only way Bitcoin can growth is by regulation.
how can you be so absolutely sure about that?
By regulations ? Really? Do you think when gov will put their hands on Bitcoin transactions you will be happy and watch the rally ?
You must be kiddin.
BTC is going to continue to grow with (or without) regulation. There is too much momentum and too much money being thrown at it not to.
July 17, 2014, 03:28:09 PM
...
I'm not really sure how it's a pyramid or inverted/reverse pyramid scheme, either. Could you please explain?
...
I'm not really sure how it's a pyramid or inverted/reverse pyramid scheme, either. Could you please explain?
...
There's more important stuff going on at the mo but whatever. In a pyramid lots of people lose out and a small number gain so in a reverse pyramid a small number lose out to the gain of many.
Why not just call it a wealth distribution mechanism?
Aka "currency"
July 17, 2014, 03:25:54 PM
Bull run incoming
July 17, 2014, 03:24:37 PM
there remains no doubt that any Bitcoin transaction (just like any other agreement, oral or written) DO have "contractual force" per se.
yes but you can't have your cake and eat it too.
Maybe you should rather see a government as a mafia, as it in fact is. Protection money is called protection money because it offers that: protection. For that, they expect loyalty.
Now if you invent something like Bitcoin to bypass their infrastructure, but still you want their protection, it's an uneven deal (for them).
July 17, 2014, 03:00:15 PM
July 17, 2014, 02:59:19 PM
Bitcoin does not need regulations. Bitcoin has got it's own regulations embedded, with consensus from its community. We do not need governments...
... ok, maybe governments might be of help to take care of scammers and dishonest people, but ONLY when the community chooses for the "Government path": in this case, all Civil and Criminal Laws already existing around the world is enough.
(edit: Bitcoin may only opt for "government regulations" if the community decides to please them, and not to "despise" them...)
... ok, maybe governments might be of help to take care of scammers and dishonest people, but ONLY when the community chooses for the "Government path": in this case, all Civil and Criminal Laws already existing around the world is enough.
(edit: Bitcoin may only opt for "government regulations" if the community decides to please them, and not to "despise" them...)
I already commented this for a recent article:
Something like Bitcoin in this historically correct context is even more interesting, as money hitherto was always a thing enforced and organized by a governmental authority (yes even gold and silver, as said). Bitcoin lacks contractual enforcement so far. We can have "smart contracts" all we like, but it's just information; if you actually want to chase and catch people like pirateat40 or TradeFortress, you need an executive force. That's an important aspect of the regulation question. That's the deal today's governments are offering: if we are supposed to chase fraud in Bitcoin, then we want and need to have control over that thing.
So it is very interesting how this deal will turn out.
Well, (if I understood well what you mean - excuse me, English is not my mother tongue
) it may the case that it will depend on the Jurisdiction (country/state) in which the transaction took place/parts are located. In my country, for instance, where we have the Statute Law System (mostly originated from Roman Law), there remains no doubt that any Bitcoin transaction (just like any other agreement, oral or written) DO have "contractual force" per se. That's why I consider that the already existing laws are capable to give a solution to a possible breach/abuse in a Bitcoin "contract" (trade, buy/sell, barter, etc). July 17, 2014, 02:58:27 PM
mid-term, think we're still gonna see 700+. maybe 800. then we'll see.
July 17, 2014, 02:48:33 PM
Bitcoin does not need regulations. Bitcoin has got it's own regulations embedded, with consensus from its community. We do not need governments...
... ok, maybe governments might be of help to take care of scammers and dishonest people, but ONLY when the community chooses for the "Government path": in this case, all Civil and Criminal Laws already existing around the world is enough.
(edit: Bitcoin may only opt for "government regulations" if the community decides to please them, and not to "despise" them...)
... ok, maybe governments might be of help to take care of scammers and dishonest people, but ONLY when the community chooses for the "Government path": in this case, all Civil and Criminal Laws already existing around the world is enough.
(edit: Bitcoin may only opt for "government regulations" if the community decides to please them, and not to "despise" them...)
I already commented this for a recent article:
Something like Bitcoin in this historically correct context is even more interesting, as money hitherto was always a thing enforced and organized by a governmental authority (yes even gold and silver, as said). Bitcoin lacks contractual enforcement so far. We can have "smart contracts" all we like, but it's just information; if you actually want to chase and catch people like pirateat40 or TradeFortress, you need an executive force. That's an important aspect of the regulation question. That's the deal today's governments are offering: if we are supposed to chase fraud in Bitcoin, then we want and need to have control over that thing.
So it is very interesting how this deal will turn out.
July 17, 2014, 02:41:00 PM
Easy solution? Incorporate outside of the US and give them the middle finger. Americans always think their laws apply outside of the US.
And they do, unfortunately.That proposed regulation, and other existing state and federal regulations, apply to any foreign based companies who sell products or services to residents (of the respective states, or of the US). Foreign companies are supposed to ask customers where they reside, and comply with the laws of the client's country, as well as of the country where the company is located.
If the foreign company fails to do so, and sells to US customers violating US federal or state laws, the US may try to prosecute the company, asking for extradition and/or cooperation of the local authorities. (IIRC, at least one foreign-based fund out there warns right away that they don't sell shares to US residents. And, IIRC, Mircea Popescu -- a notable bitcoin stock exchange operator in Romania -- got a letter from the SEC about that; I don't know how it ended.)
If the customer lies about his place of residence, and the US finds out, I presume that *he* may be in trouble instead.
July 17, 2014, 02:34:18 PM
Well, the only way Bitcoin can growth is by regulation.
how can you be so absolutely sure about that?
Bitcoin does not need regulations. Bitcoin has got it's own regulations embedded, with consensus from its community. We do not need governments...
... ok, maybe governments might be of help to take care of scammers and dishonest people, but ONLY when the community chooses for the "Government path": in this case, all Civil and Criminal Laws already existing around the world is enough.
(edit: Bitcoin may only opt for "government regulations" if the community decides to please them, and not to "despise" them...)
July 17, 2014, 02:21:01 PM
Well, the only way Bitcoin can growth is by regulation.
how can you be so absolutely sure about that?
By regulations ? Really? Do you think when gov will put their hands on Bitcoin transactions you will be happy and watch the rally ?
You must be kiddin.
July 17, 2014, 02:16:22 PM
In essence, Jorge's prediction is [ bla bla... ]
Hey, those probabilities are MINE! All MINE! If you want to have probabilities too, go get your own!
July 17, 2014, 02:15:32 PM
Well, the only way Bitcoin can growth is by regulation.
how can you be so absolutely sure about that?
July 17, 2014, 02:08:13 PM
you want to know how they will regulate Bitcoin in NY state ? http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2aycxs/hi_this_is_ben_lawsky_at_nydfs_here_are_the/cizyqyz
Entities are considered dealing in virtual currencies if:
They transfer Bitcoins on behalf of one person. This includes Bitcoin tipping (/u/changetip), mixers, Blockchain.info Send Shared, CoinJoin, Dark Wallet (200.2n1)
They hold or have control over Bitcoins for their users. This includes Mining pools, Coinbase, Circle, Greenaddress.it, all exchanges. (200.2n2)
They buy or sell Bitcoins as a business activity. This includes Local Bitcoins sellers, #bitcoin-otc. FinCEN statements includes selling physical coinage (including casascius coins) also regulated. (200.2n3)
They create a virtual currency, even if it is decentralized. This includes creating altcoins. In fact, Satoshi would have commited a crime creating Bitcoin without registration. (200.2n5)
They trade any virtual currency, even for another virtual currency. This includes alt coin exchanges. Mintpal, Cryptsy, BTER, etc (200.2n4)
.. to any resident in New York. Web services, even those incorporated overseas, must either comply or block access for NY users. (200.2n)
Entities 'dealing in virtual currency' must:
Perform AML and collect identities, including verification of government issued Photo ID and proof of address, and retain these information for 10 years. (200.15a)
Retain all transaction logs for 10 years, including real name & physical addresses of ALL parties of a transaction - yes, including whoever you are sending to. (200.12a1)
Report all transactions over the USD value of $3000, and file Suspicious Activity Reports. (200.15g4)
Maintain collateral in the form of USD, including collateral for Bitcoin balances. The % as collateral is unspecified.
Retained earnings and profits of in invested in US dollars. They may not keep any profit in Bitcoin. (200.8b)
Forfeit Bitcoins that are inactive for over 5 years to the State of New York - (200.12c)
Not obfuscate any transactions - Bitcoin mixing would be illegal. (200.15f)
Interesting: now these people who creates altcoin would be committing a crime, even satoshi committed a crime following this logic. and NY wants to take your coins, so you wont be able to use your coins as a saving method ? yea so bad news for hodlers.
this is the whole document if you want to read it http://www.dfs.ny.gov/about/press2014/pr1407171-vc.pdf
Entities are considered dealing in virtual currencies if:
They transfer Bitcoins on behalf of one person. This includes Bitcoin tipping (/u/changetip), mixers, Blockchain.info Send Shared, CoinJoin, Dark Wallet (200.2n1)
They hold or have control over Bitcoins for their users. This includes Mining pools, Coinbase, Circle, Greenaddress.it, all exchanges. (200.2n2)
They buy or sell Bitcoins as a business activity. This includes Local Bitcoins sellers, #bitcoin-otc. FinCEN statements includes selling physical coinage (including casascius coins) also regulated. (200.2n3)
They create a virtual currency, even if it is decentralized. This includes creating altcoins. In fact, Satoshi would have commited a crime creating Bitcoin without registration. (200.2n5)
They trade any virtual currency, even for another virtual currency. This includes alt coin exchanges. Mintpal, Cryptsy, BTER, etc (200.2n4)
.. to any resident in New York. Web services, even those incorporated overseas, must either comply or block access for NY users. (200.2n)
Entities 'dealing in virtual currency' must:
Perform AML and collect identities, including verification of government issued Photo ID and proof of address, and retain these information for 10 years. (200.15a)
Retain all transaction logs for 10 years, including real name & physical addresses of ALL parties of a transaction - yes, including whoever you are sending to. (200.12a1)
Report all transactions over the USD value of $3000, and file Suspicious Activity Reports. (200.15g4)
Maintain collateral in the form of USD, including collateral for Bitcoin balances. The % as collateral is unspecified.
Retained earnings and profits of in invested in US dollars. They may not keep any profit in Bitcoin. (200.8b)
Forfeit Bitcoins that are inactive for over 5 years to the State of New York - (200.12c)
Not obfuscate any transactions - Bitcoin mixing would be illegal. (200.15f)
Interesting: now these people who creates altcoin would be committing a crime, even satoshi committed a crime following this logic. and NY wants to take your coins, so you wont be able to use your coins as a saving method ? yea so bad news for hodlers.
this is the whole document if you want to read it http://www.dfs.ny.gov/about/press2014/pr1407171-vc.pdf
Easy solution? Incorporate outside of the US and give them the middle finger. Americans always think their laws apply outside of the US.
the problem is that most likely the other states will follow the same path, Businesses in EU will have a big problem serving US customers, at the end they will have to ban US customers if the hassle is too much for them.
Why do they have to ban them? because the US says so ... bitch please. Non American who are not in America do not have to follow US laws. You can make laws to attack the US customers of these businesses though. Good luck
you have no clue about how the US government operate outside their borders, a sad fact but if US had a different tolerant policy toward others the world would be a better place and not as we see today.
They can only act this way because people obey them. Don't obey these fuckers please.
July 17, 2014, 02:04:10 PM
you want to know how they will regulate Bitcoin in NY state ? http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2aycxs/hi_this_is_ben_lawsky_at_nydfs_here_are_the/cizyqyz
Entities are considered dealing in virtual currencies if:
They transfer Bitcoins on behalf of one person. This includes Bitcoin tipping (/u/changetip), mixers, Blockchain.info Send Shared, CoinJoin, Dark Wallet (200.2n1)
They hold or have control over Bitcoins for their users. This includes Mining pools, Coinbase, Circle, Greenaddress.it, all exchanges. (200.2n2)
They buy or sell Bitcoins as a business activity. This includes Local Bitcoins sellers, #bitcoin-otc. FinCEN statements includes selling physical coinage (including casascius coins) also regulated. (200.2n3)
They create a virtual currency, even if it is decentralized. This includes creating altcoins. In fact, Satoshi would have commited a crime creating Bitcoin without registration. (200.2n5)
They trade any virtual currency, even for another virtual currency. This includes alt coin exchanges. Mintpal, Cryptsy, BTER, etc (200.2n4)
.. to any resident in New York. Web services, even those incorporated overseas, must either comply or block access for NY users. (200.2n)
Entities 'dealing in virtual currency' must:
Perform AML and collect identities, including verification of government issued Photo ID and proof of address, and retain these information for 10 years. (200.15a)
Retain all transaction logs for 10 years, including real name & physical addresses of ALL parties of a transaction - yes, including whoever you are sending to. (200.12a1)
Report all transactions over the USD value of $3000, and file Suspicious Activity Reports. (200.15g4)
Maintain collateral in the form of USD, including collateral for Bitcoin balances. The % as collateral is unspecified.
Retained earnings and profits of in invested in US dollars. They may not keep any profit in Bitcoin. (200.8b)
Forfeit Bitcoins that are inactive for over 5 years to the State of New York - (200.12c)
Not obfuscate any transactions - Bitcoin mixing would be illegal. (200.15f)
Interesting: now these people who creates altcoin would be committing a crime, even satoshi committed a crime following this logic. and NY wants to take your coins, so you wont be able to use your coins as a saving method ? yea so bad news for hodlers.
this is the whole document if you want to read it http://www.dfs.ny.gov/about/press2014/pr1407171-vc.pdf
Entities are considered dealing in virtual currencies if:
They transfer Bitcoins on behalf of one person. This includes Bitcoin tipping (/u/changetip), mixers, Blockchain.info Send Shared, CoinJoin, Dark Wallet (200.2n1)
They hold or have control over Bitcoins for their users. This includes Mining pools, Coinbase, Circle, Greenaddress.it, all exchanges. (200.2n2)
They buy or sell Bitcoins as a business activity. This includes Local Bitcoins sellers, #bitcoin-otc. FinCEN statements includes selling physical coinage (including casascius coins) also regulated. (200.2n3)
They create a virtual currency, even if it is decentralized. This includes creating altcoins. In fact, Satoshi would have commited a crime creating Bitcoin without registration. (200.2n5)
They trade any virtual currency, even for another virtual currency. This includes alt coin exchanges. Mintpal, Cryptsy, BTER, etc (200.2n4)
.. to any resident in New York. Web services, even those incorporated overseas, must either comply or block access for NY users. (200.2n)
Entities 'dealing in virtual currency' must:
Perform AML and collect identities, including verification of government issued Photo ID and proof of address, and retain these information for 10 years. (200.15a)
Retain all transaction logs for 10 years, including real name & physical addresses of ALL parties of a transaction - yes, including whoever you are sending to. (200.12a1)
Report all transactions over the USD value of $3000, and file Suspicious Activity Reports. (200.15g4)
Maintain collateral in the form of USD, including collateral for Bitcoin balances. The % as collateral is unspecified.
Retained earnings and profits of in invested in US dollars. They may not keep any profit in Bitcoin. (200.8b)
Forfeit Bitcoins that are inactive for over 5 years to the State of New York - (200.12c)
Not obfuscate any transactions - Bitcoin mixing would be illegal. (200.15f)
Interesting: now these people who creates altcoin would be committing a crime, even satoshi committed a crime following this logic. and NY wants to take your coins, so you wont be able to use your coins as a saving method ? yea so bad news for hodlers.
this is the whole document if you want to read it http://www.dfs.ny.gov/about/press2014/pr1407171-vc.pdf
Easy solution? Incorporate outside of the US and give them the middle finger. Americans always think their laws apply outside of the US.
the problem is that most likely the other states will follow the same path, Businesses in EU will have a big problem serving US customers, at the end they will have to ban US customers if the hassle is too much for them.
Why do they have to ban them? because the US says so ... bitch please. Non American who are not in America do not have to follow US laws. You can make laws to attack the US customers of these businesses though. Good luck
you have no clue about how the US government operate outside their borders, a sad fact but if US had a different tolerant policy toward others the world would be a better place and not as we see today.
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