Wall Observer - MtGoxUSD wall movement tracker - page 375.

Zomdifros

full member

Activity: 210

Merit: 100

Quote from: justusranvier on March 28, 2013, 10:30:45 AM

Quote from: Zomdifros on March 28, 2013, 10:24:06 AM

I can use Bitcoin to store wealth

Actually you can't store wealth with Bitcoin or anything else because wealth is not storable.

Because the number of Bitcoins can not be arbitrarily increased a saved bitcoin balance will retain or even increase in purchasing power over time ceteris paribus.

Agreed, I think that is acceptable.

mp420

hero member

Activity: 501

Merit: 500

Quote from: rpietila on March 28, 2013, 09:53:06 AM

LMAO. I am willing to write PUTs for $50 expiring Dec 2013. How many you want? What price?

No need, I'll just sell and buy BTC.

deeplink

hero member

Activity: 728

Merit: 500

In cryptography we trust

Quote from: Crazy on March 28, 2013, 10:28:24 AM

Quote from: deeplink on March 28, 2013, 10:26:37 AM

Actually there is quite a lot you can already buy with bitcoins at the moment.

BitcoinStore, Mega, Reddit, Wordpress, Amazon fulfillment integration, Gold, Silver, etc.

And we are only just getting started.

Heh, it's funny because you think that's a lot. If that's a lot, how do you characterize every other commodity and currency?

I don't think it's that much in comparison, but it is a clear sign of the potential. And I don't think that potential is all priced in yet.

mccorvic

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 500

Quote from: Crazy on March 28, 2013, 10:28:24 AM

Quote from: deeplink on March 28, 2013, 10:26:37 AM

Actually there is quite a lot you can already buy with bitcoins at the moment.

BitcoinStore, Mega, Reddit, Wordpress, Amazon fulfillment integration, Gold, Silver, etc.

And we are only just getting started.

Heh, it's funny because you think that's a lot. If that's a lot, how do you characterize every other commodity and currency?

Exactly. It's only the beginning. Thanks for agreeing.

justusranvier

legendary

Activity: 1400

Merit: 1013

Quote from: Zomdifros on March 28, 2013, 10:24:06 AM

I can use Bitcoin to store wealth

Actually you can't store wealth with Bitcoin or anything else because wealth is not storable.

Because the number of Bitcoins can not be arbitrarily increased a saved bitcoin balance will retain or even increase in purchasing power over time ceteris paribus.

Crazy

full member

Activity: 182

Merit: 106

Quote from: deeplink on March 28, 2013, 10:26:37 AM

Actually there is quite a lot you can already buy with bitcoins at the moment.

BitcoinStore, Mega, Reddit, Wordpress, Amazon fulfillment integration, Gold, Silver, etc.

And we are only just getting started.

Heh, it's funny because you think that's a lot. If that's a lot, how do you characterize every other commodity and currency?

deeplink

hero member

Activity: 728

Merit: 500

In cryptography we trust

Quote from: Crazy on March 28, 2013, 10:19:17 AM

Quote from: deeplink on March 28, 2013, 10:15:49 AM

If it has purchasing power, people will use it to store wealth. Like gold.

This is true, but right now it doesn't, and won't for the foreseeable future. Unless you know something I don't?

Actually there is quite a lot you can already buy with bitcoins at the moment.

BitcoinStore, Mega, Reddit, Wordpress, Amazon fulfillment integration, Gold, Silver, etc.

And we are only just getting started.

Zomdifros

full member

Activity: 210

Merit: 100

Quote from: Crazy on March 28, 2013, 10:19:17 AM

Bear: Actually, I can only use it for x, y, and z, and I've seen only x% in measured user growth and the valuation has far outpaced it, so bubble.

I can use Bitcoin to store wealth, without having the risk that someday the government or a bank will take it away. There is a risk that either my wallet gets stolen, the technology behind it will be cracked or using it might become extremely cumbersome due to government actions, but with that priced in, it is still a good store of wealth. I don't care at all that people aren't using it to buy stuff online, as long as they use it to store wealth.

Crazy

full member

Activity: 182

Merit: 106

Quote from: mccorvic on March 28, 2013, 10:23:23 AM

Yea, but you did a terrible job at it :/

Because it's not in line with your opinion. :\

mccorvic

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 500

Quote from: Crazy on March 28, 2013, 10:19:17 AM

I could play it the same way.

Yea, but you did a terrible job at it :/

oakpacific

hero member

Activity: 784

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Zomdifros on March 28, 2013, 10:17:50 AM

Quote from: Crazy on March 28, 2013, 10:08:11 AM

Quote from: Zomdifros on March 28, 2013, 10:04:20 AM

Well, I assume you think Bitcoin can't be a safe haven as it is still in it's technological infancy, but as it isn't correlated to any other asset in the world, it has the possibility of being a good hedge. And so far it has been.

On bubbles, they can grow quite a lot bigger before they crash. From Wikipedia, on the dot-com bubble:

There is nothing safe about bitcoins, a quick glance at a 6mo chart of USD/BTC will show you that, and yes I would attribute that to infancy in general. And what good does the peak of a bubble mean to anyone that loses their shirt? What good does the peak mean if the higher the peak, the harder confidence in the currency gets hit after the correction (and depending on the degree of correction)? If your argument is that it's a bubble but it might pop higher, I can't disagree.

The volatility is irrelevant and actually what we have to expect from anything which has to start at zero. And my argument is that it indeed will pop higher, only a lot higher with not one single large pop, but many small ones (as we have seen the last few months). And it will recover even then.

The volatility was way higher when the price was low.

Crazy

full member

Activity: 182

Merit: 106

Quote from: mccorvic on March 28, 2013, 10:11:21 AM

The only arguments I see are this:

Bull: Bitcoin has vast potential. It is beginning to reach that potential, thus price increase. Potential as store of value. Potential as money transmitter. Potential as international currency. Potential for money laundering. Also, the increase in publicity is introducing bitcoin's uses to a whole new global audience. Not just it's current trade price, but actual value and uses.

Bear: Bubble because.

I have yet to see anything out side of this.

I could play it the same way.

Bull: Bitcoin is valuable because bitcoin is valuable (or will be at some arbitrary point in time since clairvoyant)

Bear: Actually, I can only use it for x, y, and z, and I've seen only x% in measured user growth and the valuation has far outpaced it, so bubble.

Quote from: deeplink on March 28, 2013, 10:15:49 AM

If it has purchasing power, people will use it to store wealth. Like gold.

This is true, but right now it doesn't, and won't for the foreseeable future. Unless you know something I don't?

Zomdifros

full member

Activity: 210

Merit: 100

Quote from: Crazy on March 28, 2013, 10:08:11 AM

Quote from: Zomdifros on March 28, 2013, 10:04:20 AM

Well, I assume you think Bitcoin can't be a safe haven as it is still in it's technological infancy, but as it isn't correlated to any other asset in the world, it has the possibility of being a good hedge. And so far it has been.

On bubbles, they can grow quite a lot bigger before they crash. From Wikipedia, on the dot-com bubble:

There is nothing safe about bitcoins, a quick glance at a 6mo chart of USD/BTC will show you that, and yes I would attribute that to infancy in general. And what good does the peak of a bubble mean to anyone that loses their shirt? What good does the peak mean if the higher the peak, the harder confidence in the currency gets hit after the correction (and depending on the degree of correction)? If your argument is that it's a bubble but it might pop higher, I can't disagree.

The volatility is irrelevant and actually what we have to expect from anything which has to start at zero. And my argument is that it indeed will pop higher, only a lot higher with not one single large pop, but many small ones (as we have seen the last few months). And it will recover even then.

deeplink

hero member

Activity: 728

Merit: 500

In cryptography we trust

Quote from: justusranvier on March 28, 2013, 10:08:15 AM

The only real, long term value a currency has is its utility as a means of exchange. If Bitcoin is successful then 20 years from now there will be no exchanges, and no speculation, because there won't be any other currencies to trade against. The purchasing power of a bitcoin will be driven by the needs of commerce instead of speculators, exactly as it should be.

If it has purchasing power, people will use it to store wealth. Like gold.

mccorvic

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 500

The only arguments I see are this:

Bull: Bitcoin has vast potential. It is beginning to reach that potential, thus price increase. Potential as store of value. Potential as money transmitter. Potential as international currency. Potential for money laundering. Also, the increase in publicity is introducing bitcoin's uses to a whole new global audience. Not just it's current trade price, but actual value and uses.

Bear: Bubble because.

I have yet to see anything out side of this.

Crazy

full member

Activity: 182

Merit: 106

Quote from: justusranvier on March 28, 2013, 10:08:15 AM

The only real, long term value a currency has is its utility as a means of exchange. If Bitcoin is successful then 20 years from now there will be no exchanges, and no speculation, because there won't be any other currencies to trade against. The purchasing power of a bitcoin will be driven by the needs of commerce instead of speculators, exactly as it should be.

Bingo. Couldn't have said it better.

justusranvier

legendary

Activity: 1400

Merit: 1013

The only real, long term value a currency has is its utility as a means of exchange. If Bitcoin is successful then 20 years from now there will be no exchanges, and no speculation, because there won't be any other currencies to trade against. The purchasing power of a bitcoin will be driven by the needs of commerce instead of speculators, exactly as it should be.

Crazy

full member

Activity: 182

Merit: 106

Quote from: Zomdifros on March 28, 2013, 10:04:20 AM

Well, I assume you think Bitcoin can't be a safe haven as it is still in it's technological infancy, but as it isn't correlated to any other asset in the world, it has the possibility of being a good hedge. And so far it has been.

On bubbles, they can grow quite a lot bigger before they crash. From Wikipedia, on the dot-com bubble:

There is nothing safe about bitcoins, a quick glance at a 6mo chart of USD/BTC will show you that, and yes I would attribute that to infancy in general. And what good does the peak of a bubble mean to anyone that loses their shirt? What good does the peak mean if the higher the peak, the harder confidence in the currency gets hit after the correction (and depending on the degree of correction)? If your argument is that it's a bubble but it might pop higher, I can't disagree.

Zomdifros

full member

Activity: 210

Merit: 100

Quote from: Crazy on March 28, 2013, 09:56:39 AM

Quote from: Zomdifros on March 28, 2013, 09:54:46 AM

It seems you think Bitcoin has to succeed as a payment system in order to justify a high price, or at least think it is an important part of it. While Bitcoin as a payment system certainly has some merit, Bitcoin as a safe haven is far more relevant. There is so incredibly much money in the world invested in things like derivatives, only a small fraction of this has to go to Bitcoin in order for it to get to a price over $1000.

What we need right now is a legal framework which allows institutional investors to get their money into Bitcoin. Things like insured accounts, for instance. As Bitcoin is now rapidly getting in the limelight, this point may not be far away. And obviously I'm in Bitcoin for the long haul as well, I just believe things might happen very fast.

I stopped reading at safe haven, sorry.

Well, I assume you think Bitcoin can't be a safe haven as it is still in it's technological infancy, but as it isn't correlated to any other asset in the world, it has the possibility of being a good hedge. And so far it has been.

On bubbles, they can grow quite a lot bigger before they crash. From Wikipedia, on the dot-com bubble:

Quote from: JACK WILLOUGHBY, March 20, 2000, Barrons

America's 371 publicly traded Internet companies have grown to the point that they are collectively valued at $1.3 trillion, which amounts to about 8% of the entire U.S. stock market.

WikileaksDude

hero member

Activity: 490

Merit: 500

Quote from: Crazy on March 28, 2013, 09:56:39 AM

Quote from: Zomdifros on March 28, 2013, 09:54:46 AM

It seems you think Bitcoin has to succeed as a payment system in order to justify a high price, or at least think it is an important part of it. While Bitcoin as a payment system certainly has some merit, Bitcoin as a safe haven is far more relevant. There is so incredibly much money in the world invested in things like derivatives, only a small fraction of this has to go to Bitcoin in order for it to get to a price over $1000.

What we need right now is a legal framework which allows institutional investors to get their money into Bitcoin. Things like insured accounts, for instance. As Bitcoin is now rapidly getting in the limelight, this point may not be far away. And obviously I'm in Bitcoin for the long haul as well, I just believe things might happen very fast.

I stopped reading at safe haven, sorry.

2x

Topic: Wall Observer - MtGoxUSD wall movement tracker - page 375. (Read 1811605 times)