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Topic: Wall Observer - MtGoxUSD wall movement tracker - page 65. (Read 1811564 times)

full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
Bixcoin Superdouche




Well IMO we are either at beartrap or despair, but as others have said this graph can be really applied to many things and its relevance to BTC has to be questioned. The main problem being we haven't been through all of the background phases of the chart i.e investments, public etc. Which if you go by my guess' means that we are at beartrap, but the pattern of the line looks awfully similar to what we have witnessed meaning we could be at despair. Who the fuck knows where we are jumping from 90-100, but if you take either of those predictions then at least the only way is up eh.

Bulltrap totally out of question?
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 506
... I just wanted to bring this back into peoples heads since we are looking at charts, or supposed to be, but this is looking awefully similar to the 30d charts of BTC




OK,  with this image being so prevalent I'm guessing I'm not the first to break it down a bit to see if there is anything of value in comparative terms to be gained from it but I'll have a crack at it anyway...

What would one expect the volume to look like on the rapid drop?  Assuming the 'mean' (I'll get to that) represents a stock value reflective of the underlying asset value/expected return then should one not expect the total of the sales for the duration of the total drop to be somewhere in the region of the total purchases from take-off (plus the amount that takes it under the 'mean')?  Even if it is nowhere near that I would still expect to see immense amounts of volume from those with 'fear' and 'capitulation' getting out with no intention to return.  In other words if this was what was going on with Bitcoin one should expect to see the biggest volume of sales coincide with the biggest drops in price.

But what if most of the people and most of the substantial holdings from the various stages of the build-up just step out of the market altogether for the drop - or sell speculatively a small proportion of one's holding upon seeing what's happening with the intention of buying back in - and maybe even bringing even more money to the table towards the bottom?  Again, where would one expect the main volume to be seen then?

Oh wait...

looks like lots of coins have changed hands in the last phase of the dip...


Indeed. Yesterday saw the 24h all time high for bitcoin volume on MtGox with 550k BTC, beating the previous one at 400k BTC during the bottom at 2$.
 

As labestiol points out the biggest volume here is as it hits the bottom.  Let's zoom in a bit...

We should be wary of reading too much into this apart from anything else because the lag, MtGox going off-line and activity around that.

However, it looks to me like it didn't take much to trigger the initial drop and the volume came in with buying pressure when it was first thought it had bottomed and was about to start going back up.  Likewise I think, (though not so obvious*) with subsequent drops.  In virtually all cases (other than immediately after MtGox came back on line) the big buying has been on the bottom or on the rise.

This suggests to me a vast amount never got near the market because:
  • It's held not by speculators in the first place but by those more interested in the bigger picture;
  • It's held by speculators who would not touch a fast-moving market run on a broken trading engine with a barge pole;**
  • Their bid orders were pulled off the order book as soon as it became obvious this was no mere blip in order to wait until the price got low enough to buy back in.

I would venture to suggest (accepting the iffy accuracy of the picture due to MtGox) that the market was moved immensely by a small number of people and not a large amount of coin.

In which case why is it not climbing today as rapidly as it fell?  Simply I would venture to suggest because there's no need for it to.  There's no rush.  Bitcoin isn't going anywhere in a hurry.  There are still some who believe bitcoin has a value related to its use and who believe that to be lower than what it is.  And they - along with the nervous who got bitten over the last few days - are reluctant to jump in too soon.  But Bitcoin's use isn't dependent on it having a value of a particular size.

And this gets me onto the last point.  That first illustration is to do with stocks.  The 'mean' is not a mathematical mean.  It suggests there is an underlying value backed up by the company's assets, customers, trade and dividends.  Bitcoin has none of the above.  Those who say it has 'no intrinsic value' are to a surprising degree correct so it could have no value in principle.  However in order to be of use it has to have 'some' value in terms of fiat for people sending money abroad or spending it with service providers to be able to swap in and out of fiat.  But for those purposes as I said it doesn't matter how big or small that 'value' is.

The 'mean' in the illustration represents a steady line upwards but unless the vertical axis is on a logarithmic scale this can't represent the adoption of bitcoin either - not by numbers of users, numbers of merchants, number of transactions or of anything.

So I would venture to suggest 'bring[ing] this back into peoples heads' is not helpful seeing as it has as far as I can see nothing useful to add to the discussion other than responses illustrating the multitude of reasons why it is so useless when comparing to usd/btc charts.


*Why I think it is not so obvious is that people were trying to get back in at every sign it may be bottoming out. 

** I'm still struggling to get the mentality of those whose reaction to seeing a broken trading was to panic and try and sell on it.  If they really don't understand Bitcoin well enough to see nothing was going to happen to it and that the the only option they could see was to trading blind on a market that happend some time ago then as harsh as it sounds maybe it's not such a bad thing they lost their shirts and went.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
I tought that I would be smart if I placed a sell order for 1 BTC at 117.9.

Well, as it turned out, the sell order was at 1.0 BTC for the volume of 117.9   Embarrassed

So all my coins were sold....  Shocked

these would have sold at market value right?  mtgox has normal exchange rules regarding min sell and max buy price?
newbie
Activity: 32
Merit: 0
...



In this market cycle, Where are we now with bitcoins , ....according to you



Well IMO we are either at beartrap or despair, but as others have said this graph can be really applied to many things and its relevance to BTC has to be questioned. The main problem being we haven't been through all of the background phases of the chart i.e investments, public etc. Which if you go by my guess' means that we are at beartrap, but the pattern of the line looks awfully similar to what we have witnessed meaning we could be at despair. Who the fuck knows where we are jumping from 90-100, but if you take either of those predictions then at least the only way is up eh.
sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
Still holding above $100.

sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
I've been out in the real world since yesterday. Whats up? I can't log into gox, is that for everyone?

Works fine for me
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
RUM AND CARROTS: A PIRATE LIFE FOR ME
I've been out in the real world since yesterday. Whats up? I can't log into gox, is that for everyone?
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 251
looks like lots of coins have changed hands in the last phase of the dip...


Indeed. Yesterday saw the 24h all time high for bitcoin volume on MtGox with 550k BTC, beating the previous one at 400k BTC during the bottom at 2$.
 
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1125
Mtgox has permits in Japan to run this fucking lagshow.

Can someone tell me if they are allowed to have their exchange open during this DDOS, according to the permits?

 

Wow. MtGox has permits? Smiley
full member
Activity: 142
Merit: 100
Mtgox has permits in Japan to run this fucking lagshow.

Can someone tell me if they are allowed to have their exchange open during this DDOS, according to the permits?

 
legendary
Activity: 2126
Merit: 1001
Pop, again.

So, how about a bet? I bet you 1k BTC we will see 200$ before single digits.

Oh, wait, you obviously are out of Bitcoin.
Oh, wait, you obviously are trolling anyway.

Ente

I bet you a million dollars you don't have 1000 BTC.



..did I say I have 1000 BTC?
All right. how do you wish to proceed your 1M$ bet?
I prefer escrow in this case ;-)

Ente

How about you then, ElectricMucus?
Anything to say, or shall I just prove I have 1k BTC and earn you a scammer tag for not paying me 1M$?
..in the case you don't have those 1M bucks, lol

Ente
legendary
Activity: 2126
Merit: 1001
Pop, again.

So, how about a bet? I bet you 1k BTC we will see 200$ before single digits.

Oh, wait, you obviously are out of Bitcoin.
Oh, wait, you obviously are trolling anyway.

Ente

So, Proudhon, not even replying to this?
Haha loser!
I'm not surprised though.

Ente
legendary
Activity: 2097
Merit: 1070
I agree, but I can't help but feel it wouldn't of gone as low without the lag.

People were putting in market sells into over an hour of lag. If you wanted to sell you kind of had to, because calling what the price would be in an hour was pretty risky. Anyone that predicted too high of a price would be stuck with their coins.

There also wasn't much of a chance to buy and slow down the crash for the same reason. No one wanted to risk buying too high. My bid at $106 took 75 minutes to open, so crazy.


Selling with such a lag would be crazy. I just held mine once the craziness started.

I thought it had 1 or 2 more days in it before a correction. I figured everyone would get jittery towards $300 and planned to sell at around 275-280.

I suspect someone else thought the same and dumped the lot before it got to my target.

I still have my BTC, if I had sold I would have probably bought back way before the bottom.

Hopefully this lag nonsense will now cease to be an issue so we can make live buys during moments of panic without missing them by attempting to guess the correct price. I'm not playing that game any more.
sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 250


No, it was a shakedown which got out of hand due to the serious lag issues at MtGox.

I think that was only the trigger. Many people had sleepless nights waiting with their fingers on the sell button. Maybe the lags made the first sell and then the others paniced, but it could've been anything else. It was just about time.
I personally was expecting this so much, that a day before I opened accounts on several other exchanges, and sending BTC there, just to be sure that I will be able to sell.
Thats why I am suffering from that bitcoin24 closure now, too.


I agree, but I can't help but feel it wouldn't of gone as low without the lag.

People were putting in market sells into over an hour of lag. If you wanted to sell you kind of had to, because calling what the price would be in an hour was pretty risky. Anyone that predicted too high of a price would be stuck with their coins.

There also wasn't much of a chance to buy and slow down the crash for the same reason. No one wanted to risk buying too high. My bid at $106 took 75 minutes to open, so crazy.
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
Having been a long time reader of this read/forum, probably too long/too much time spent and lurking on here for a while. Just wanted to say that many of you provide some brilliantly comedic moments as well as some insightful comments.

For what it is worth I am Long/Bullish. But aware of the potential for shit to hit the fan, having seen it grow from nearly the start.

Also, I just wanted to bring this back into peoples heads since we are looking at charts, or supposed to be, but this is looking awefully similar to the 30d charts of BTC

http://marketpredict.com/articles/images/bubble-lifecycle.gif



In this market cycle, Where are we now with bitcoins , ....according to you

full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
Bixcoin Superdouche


No, it was a shakedown which got out of hand due to the serious lag issues at MtGox.

I think that was only the trigger. Many people had sleepless nights waiting with their fingers on the sell button. Maybe the lags made the first sell and then the others paniced, but it could've been anything else. It was just about time.
I personally was expecting this so much, that a day before I opened accounts on several other exchanges, and sending BTC there, just to be sure that I will be able to sell.
Thats why I am suffering from that bitcoin24 closure now, too.
legendary
Activity: 2097
Merit: 1070
Proudhon I have a few questions for you:

Do you think BTC is enough of a threat to the mainstream fractional usury currencies that the centralbanks would bankroll (pay) people to go on BTC forums and give consistently negative opinions about everything to do with BTC?

Do you believe the 266 to 55 crash was orchestrated by a handful of operators trying to crash BTC completely?

For the record, do you yourself own any BTC? Tens, hundreds or thousands?

No, it was a shakedown which got out of hand due to the serious lag issues at MtGox.
full member
Activity: 128
Merit: 107
looks like lots of coins have changed hands in the last phase of the dip...
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
Proudhon I have a few questions for you:

Do you think BTC is enough of a threat to the mainstream fractional usury currencies that the centralbanks would bankroll (pay) people to go on BTC forums and give consistently negative opinions about everything to do with BTC?

Do you believe the 266 to 55 crash was orchestrated by a handful of operators trying to crash BTC completely?

For the record, do you yourself own any BTC? Tens, hundreds or thousands?
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
"Don't go in the trollbox, trollbox, trollbox"
That chart never gets old. It's the graphical equivalent of Godwin's Law :p

Honest question about the chart, since I see it so much.

Is it supposed to actually follow that line? Or does it just list the different phases of a bubble and show a big increase and decrease?

Because in terms of scale I don't think anyone can claim it makes sense to bitcoin, unless this is the first sell off.

It just dropped from $260 to $60, much more dramatic than the bull trap on the chart. Also if 2011 was the first sell off, it's way too close to the 2013 peak, and it definitely didn't bring in the institutional investors..


No, no, it's a general pattern. One which matches most bubbles to be honest.

But price charts are fractal, complex things. Zoom in, zoom out, squeeze the curve to fit and you could make it match almost any chart historically.

It's worth knowing about THAT chart in ANY field where mass psychology is involved  - that would be most things really I suppose.

So yeah there are 2 phases on that chart we could be at right now just don't ask me which.

It's what's beyond that chart and the little bumps and humps that can't be seen at that scale which interest me right now Smiley
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