Wallet Safekeeping - Best Practices | Bitcointalksearch.org

CryptKeeper

legendary

Activity: 2044

Merit: 1055

Quote from: kjj on December 29, 2013, 08:51:20 AM

Or am I the only one that occasionally plugs in a USB stick only to find that it has turned itself into a brick since the last time I used it?

I don't trust USB sticks either, that's why I prefer sd cards. Maybe you must copy the content once a year from one card to another, then you have refreshed the memory cells and have a second backup at the same time...

wiggi

sr. member

Activity: 403

Merit: 251

Quote from: Dabs on December 29, 2013, 08:43:16 AM

A few people are engraving on stainless steel:

Hopefully this is just the canary wallet. The real saving wallet could have a slightly different private key.

kjj

legendary

Activity: 1302

Merit: 1026

Quote from: CryptKeeper on December 29, 2013, 03:18:55 AM

Quote from: bitpop on December 29, 2013, 01:27:40 AM

Quote from: CryptKeeper on December 29, 2013, 01:22:51 AM

Quote from: kjj on December 25, 2013, 07:46:27 PM

All types of flash memory are a bad idea for long term storage. They discharge over time.

Discharged sd cards? Never heard about it!

SD cards are the safest digital storage, much more reliable than CDs or DVDs. But better create an additional paper wallet from your private key, then you're completely covered.

They need power every once in a while

Get these http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16800995117

You're right about the sd cards, only last a few years... did'nt know that! Shocked

M-Disks are great or you could take this: http://www.sandisk.com/products/usb/memory-vault/

Paper is still king. Stored properly in a cheap firesafe, paper will survive a house fire.

I also use M-disc, but I don't trust them yet. The concept seems very solid. The drives suck, I think I've got a 50% failure rate on the LG drives (of about 40 installed) in the first year, but that doesn't seem to be a problem for media lifetime. I also have a few media that have appear to have spontaneously grown what appears to be a thick dust layer despite storage in Tyvek sleeves, but they still read fine.

I have no idea about that memory vault. I note that the linked website doesn't give any indication of what it really is, or how it works. Appears to be just flash memory plus marketing. Assuming that they've solved the discharge problem (and I see no reason to believe that they have), you still have the problem that flash drives sometimes just die a sudden and mysterious death. Or am I the only one that occasionally plugs in a USB stick only to find that it has turned itself into a brick since the last time I used it?

bitpop

legendary

Activity: 2912

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The middle ones founders disappeared sadly

Dabs

legendary

Activity: 3416

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The Concierge of Crypto

A few people are engraving on stainless steel:

Some even have it laser engraved stainless steel the size of a credit card:

And you can use tungsten too:

bitpop

legendary

Activity: 2912

Merit: 1060

Quote from: CryptKeeper on December 29, 2013, 03:18:55 AM

Quote from: bitpop on December 29, 2013, 01:27:40 AM

Quote from: CryptKeeper on December 29, 2013, 01:22:51 AM

Quote from: kjj on December 25, 2013, 07:46:27 PM

All types of flash memory are a bad idea for long term storage. They discharge over time.

Discharged sd cards? Never heard about it!

SD cards are the safest digital storage, much more reliable than CDs or DVDs. But better create an additional paper wallet from your private key, then you're completely covered.

They need power every once in a while

Get these http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16800995117

You're right about the sd cards, only last a few years... did'nt know that! Shocked

M-Disks are great or you could take this: http://www.sandisk.com/products/usb/memory-vault/

Yeah those are good. There used to be worm sd write once but you can't find them. I bought some and they were counterfeit.

CryptKeeper

legendary

Activity: 2044

Merit: 1055

Quote from: bitpop on December 29, 2013, 01:27:40 AM

Quote from: CryptKeeper on December 29, 2013, 01:22:51 AM

Quote from: kjj on December 25, 2013, 07:46:27 PM

All types of flash memory are a bad idea for long term storage. They discharge over time.

Discharged sd cards? Never heard about it!

SD cards are the safest digital storage, much more reliable than CDs or DVDs. But better create an additional paper wallet from your private key, then you're completely covered.

They need power every once in a while

Get these http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16800995117

You're right about the sd cards, only last a few years... did'nt know that! Shocked

M-Disks are great or you could take this: http://www.sandisk.com/products/usb/memory-vault/

bitpop

legendary

Activity: 2912

Merit: 1060

Quote from: CryptKeeper on December 29, 2013, 01:22:51 AM

Quote from: kjj on December 25, 2013, 07:46:27 PM

All types of flash memory are a bad idea for long term storage. They discharge over time.

Discharged sd cards? Never heard about it!

SD cards are the safest digital storage, much more reliable than CDs or DVDs. But better create an additional paper wallet from your private key, then you're completely covered.

They need power every once in a while

Get these http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16800995117

CryptKeeper

legendary

Activity: 2044

Merit: 1055

Quote from: kjj on December 25, 2013, 07:46:27 PM

All types of flash memory are a bad idea for long term storage. They discharge over time.

Discharged sd cards? Never heard about it!

SD cards are the safest digital storage, much more reliable than CDs or DVDs. But better create an additional paper wallet from your private key, then you're completely covered.

bitpop

legendary

Activity: 2912

Merit: 1060

Quote from: oscarg on December 29, 2013, 12:53:08 AM

Quote from: bitpop on December 28, 2013, 09:59:03 AM

I think it only backs up 100 addresses still
Unless you use armory, your backup must be refreshed. This fact is kinda hidden

Thats interesting. Where did you see that?
That would seem to be an important point to nail down.
With the multiple change addresses etc it would seem 100 addresses could be exceeded quite quickly on a busy wallet.

Agree re Armory, there are too many variables with anything else.

Yeah it's not really a promoted fact but fatal

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Securing_your_wallet#Securing_the_Bitcoin-QT_or_bitcoind_wallet

oscarg

newbie

Activity: 13

Merit: 0

Quote from: bitpop on December 28, 2013, 09:59:03 AM

I think it only backs up 100 addresses still
Unless you use armory, your backup must be refreshed. This fact is kinda hidden

Thats interesting. Where did you see that?
That would seem to be an important point to nail down.
With the multiple change addresses etc it would seem 100 addresses could be exceeded quite quickly on a busy wallet.

Agree re Armory, there are too many variables with anything else.

bitpop

legendary

Activity: 2912

Merit: 1060

I think it only backs up 100 addresses still
Unless you use armory, your backup must be refreshed. This fact is kinda hidden

oscarg

newbie

Activity: 13

Merit: 0

@etotheipi
Ah right. Thanks.
Ill edit.
Love the product BTW

Was I correct that the paper backups only use the 26 character alphabet?

For me this a the perfect use for a paper backup.

P.S.
Anyone with Euler in their avatar is OK by Me Wink

etotheipi

legendary

Activity: 1428

Merit: 1093

Core Armory Developer

Quote from: oscarg on December 27, 2013, 01:08:54 PM

Heres my take....

Use Armory, create your wallet(s) etc,
https://bitcoinarmory.com/

Then do a "paper backup" of it.
The backups are "Deterministic" meaning they only have to be backed up once and will always work.
...

IMPORTANT: Make sure you can remember the password, and that you KNOW you will remember it in 20 years,
if you are unsure, then carve at least a hint into the ingot as well.

Armory paper backups are explicitly unencrypted. The vast majority of people using the paper backups is because they forgot their wallet password. If you need physical security, use Armory's "fragmented backup" feature to create multiple pieces and store them separately.

oscarg

newbie

Activity: 13

Merit: 0

Heres my take....

Use Armory, create your wallet(s) etc,
https://bitcoinarmory.com/

Then do a "paper backup" of it.
The backups are "Deterministic" meaning they only have to be backed up once and will always work.

Purchase some some piece(s)/ingots/whatever of stainless steel ....
Something about the size of a credit card would be ideal... but depends how small you can engrave the numbers..
I would recommend getting the best quality steel possible, as you want it to last and cheap steel may have impurities..

These Stainless Steel Dog Tags $5 each - but possibly a bit small
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mens-Stainless-Steel-Flat-Blank-Military-Dog-Tag-Pendant-Ball-Chain-Necklace-/121101538317?pt=Fashion_Jewelry&hash=item1c3236d40d

Or maybe a piece of Stainless Steel plumbing like this $54.95 for 4 of them
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-4-NW-KF-50-Blank-Flange-Blind-Flange-Cap-Vacuum-Fitting-Stainless-Steel/271326364659?_trksid=p2047675.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D333005%26algo%3DRIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D177%26meid%3D3698187346659690298%26pid%3D100009%26prg%3D1088%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D331092260391%26

And then buy something like a set of these (Steel Alphabetic punch set) $18
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/like/230881776683?lpid=87
It appears the paper backups only use the 26 alphabetic characters, but I have not confirmed that...

And spend an hour bashing the backup numbers onto the steel plate/ingot/whatever with a hammer.

Put them in a safe, in the attic, carve a small slot in the top of a door it can slide into,
or even nail them to the underside of your house.

Why Stainless Steel, rather than Titanium/gold/copper/brass/bronze etc etc?

Stainless steel does not rust or tarnish much and has a very high melting point (1500c/2750f)
so its very likely to survive a house fire.
Also its cheap, although that is not really important..

It will outlast anything else I can think of... It will probably outlive you and your money troubles

antanst

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 260

Quote from: kjj on December 25, 2013, 07:46:27 PM

Quote from: antanst on December 25, 2013, 11:26:11 AM

In five years, the CD's and DVD's you burned may be corrupt. Optical discs' quality isn't what it used to be. Of course, this varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. If you want to digitally store data, the most future-proof way would probably be to use multiple good quality SD cards.

All types of flash memory are a bad idea for long term storage. They discharge over time.

Indeed. But they discharge extremely slowly. I can't think of a more reliable way to digitally store data.

kjj

legendary

Activity: 1302

Merit: 1026

Quote from: antanst on December 25, 2013, 11:26:11 AM

In five years, the CD's and DVD's you burned may be corrupt. Optical discs' quality isn't what it used to be. Of course, this varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. If you want to digitally store data, the most future-proof way would probably be to use multiple good quality SD cards.

All types of flash memory are a bad idea for long term storage. They discharge over time.

light888

newbie

Activity: 26

Merit: 0

Or you can tatoo your private key on your private parts Grin

antanst

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 260

In five years, the CD's and DVD's you burned may be corrupt. Optical discs' quality isn't what it used to be. Of course, this varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. If you want to digitally store data, the most future-proof way would probably be to use multiple good quality SD cards.

Quote from: Cryptofibe on December 24, 2013, 01:31:12 AM

If I was to send myself payments to this address and in 5 years for example -- I would place wallet.dat back into another Bitcoin wallet, would it catch-up and find all the payments that were ever sent to that wallet?

Keeping wallet.dat for long term storage is not a good idea. Although you will be able to extract your private keys even if the wallet.dat format changes in the future, it would be better to generate your private keys using vanitygen or bitaddress.org software (offline!) and store them into paper.

kjj

legendary

Activity: 1302

Merit: 1026

It is hard to beat paper for this application.

Topic: Wallet Safekeeping - Best Practices (Read 5617 times)