Wallets supporting Silent Payments | Bitcointalksearch.org

dkbit98

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It's now official, BitBox02 just added support for Silent Payments, and this is now the first Hardware Wallet that can send Silent Payments.
This is a step in a right direction but note that receiving Silent Payments is not available yet with BitBox wallet.
I am hoping other hardware wallets will soon follow this example.

BitBox made a blog post explaining how Silent Payments work:
https://bitbox.swiss/blog/understanding-silent-payments-part-one/

List is updated:

Cake Wallet ^beta
Silentium wallet ^{web experimental}
SeedSigner^test
Blue Wallet^{sending only}
BitBox02 Hardware Wallet^{sending only}

Pmalek

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Quote from: dkbit98 on July 24, 2024, 02:49:57 PM

Good move from BitBox.
They showed several times they really care about bitcoin privacy, they even donated to Samourai defense fund few weeks ago:

Unfortunately, they also showed a different side of themselves when Shift Crypto, their parent company, was one of the creators of AOPP, essentially a privacy-invasive KYC system for third-party and private addresses. Several other companies adopted AOPP soon after, but many gave up on the implementation after their users provided negative feedback about it. I think BitBox and Shift Crypto never walked away from this idea, mainly because Swiss regulatory law requires that their citizens perform verification of third-party bitcoin addresses.

NotATether

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Quote from: LoyceV on July 25, 2024, 02:26:13 AM

Maybe it can improve privacy for signature campaigns, depending on how the campaign manager publishes results. Or for sure it would be a privacy improvement if it replaces the address posted in Bitcointalk profiles.

Donation addresses too, can benefit from this. Nobody would know who donated to people or organizations who posted the donation address.

Although, this might only make sense if the donations being sent via silent payments are large denominations of Bitcoins, like 1mBTC. It doesn't really work if the amounts are smaller than that, because a significant percentage is just going to be wasted on fees.

LoyceV

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Quote from: dkbit98 on July 24, 2024, 02:49:57 PM

I don't know if bitcoin mixing can be imrpoved with Silent Payments but I would like to see someone trying to do this.

I don't think so. Silent payments only improve privacy when the address was publicly published. Mixers show the address in private to their user. Even if they'd use a Silent address, the on-chain result is exactly the same.

Maybe it can improve privacy for signature campaigns, depending on how the campaign manager publishes results. Or for sure it would be a privacy improvement if it replaces the address posted in Bitcointalk profiles.

dkbit98

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Quote from: NotATether on June 30, 2024, 02:43:15 AM

Silent payments would not be very silent if they could be easily identified in the blockchain (hence chain analysis also identifies them) - so therefore it's a good thing that there's crap like Ordinals and Runes for it to blend in with, "obfuscation" if you may call it that.

I have a feeling more wallets and privacy services will use Silent Payments in future and that should be good for everyone who likes to have more privacy.
I don't know if bitcoin mixing can be imrpoved with Silent Payments but I would like to see someone trying to do this.

Quote from: Pmalek on July 24, 2024, 11:11:27 AM

It looks like BitBox will soon become the first hardware wallet manufacturer to support silent payments. It will probably be released soon with an upcoming firmware/software update. There is already a video of a BitBox02 making a transaction to a silent payment address.

Good move from BitBox.
They showed several times they really care about bitcoin privacy, they even donated to Samourai defense fund few weeks ago:
https://x.com/BitBoxSwiss/status/1810693680203755523

Pmalek

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It looks like BitBox will soon become the first hardware wallet manufacturer to support silent payments. It will probably be released soon with an upcoming firmware/software update. There is already a video of a BitBox02 making a transaction to a silent payment address.

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on June 30, 2024, 02:39:31 AM

[...]

The problem with this solution is that you can't have an accurate transaction history if you need to use the wallet from more than one device regularly. Personally, I don't find this that much of an issue.

It's difficult to keep track of your transactions in more than one device anyways, unless I'm the only one using labels.

Quote from: NotATether on June 30, 2024, 02:43:15 AM

Silent payments would not be very silent if they could be easily identified in the blockchain (hence chain analysis also identifies them) - so therefore it's a good thing that there's crap like Ordinals and Runes for it to blend in with, "obfuscation" if you may call it that.

It's pretty easy to spot an Ordinal. I don't see how this obfuscates the silent payments.

Quote from: NotATether on June 30, 2024, 02:43:15 AM

On the other hand when the blocks are full of Taproot outputs, it becomes more computationally expensive to search for them.

According to these stats, in the last 90 days, only 1.66% of the output volume was of type taproot. People still use P2PKH very regularly (35.92%!!!), even under high fees.

NotATether

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on June 30, 2024, 02:39:31 AM

Quote from: LoyceV on June 30, 2024, 01:55:07 AM

On second thought: I don't think the bold part should be the default: if you use multiple wallets, or resync your main wallet, you'd want your spent inputs to show up too.

Here's a quick thought: When creating your wallet, scan for all transactions that include a Taproot output. When opening your wallet afterwards, look only for unspent inputs. This way, it'll take some more time to find your transaction history only during setup.

For faster scanning, silent payment software could give you a wallet block height for when recovering it in the future.

Silent payments would not be very silent if they could be easily identified in the blockchain (hence chain analysis also identifies them) - so therefore it's a good thing that there's crap like Ordinals and Runes for it to blend in with, "obfuscation" if you may call it that.

On the other hand when the blocks are full of Taproot outputs, it becomes more computationally expensive to search for them. The process is parallelizable to a degree, but only for parsing the transactions in a block. Unless you are querying from a node that carries block undo history.

So maybe we will see more applications of taproot in the future.

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: LoyceV on June 30, 2024, 01:55:07 AM

On second thought: I don't think the bold part should be the default: if you use multiple wallets, or resync your main wallet, you'd want your spent inputs to show up too.

Here's a quick thought: When creating your wallet, scan for all transactions that include a Taproot output. When opening your wallet afterwards, look only for unspent inputs. This way, it'll take some more time to find your transaction history only during setup.

For faster scanning, silent payment software could give you a wallet block height for when recovering it in the future.

LoyceV

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on June 27, 2024, 10:18:40 AM

Quote from: LoyceV on June 27, 2024, 10:05:23 AM

That's what I mean: I don't see how this can work without the server knowing the details and without the user downloading all (new) blocks?

In the case with silent payments, it can be implemented more efficiently than in Feather: Request from the server to send you only transactions that contain a Taproot ouput, occurred after the last time you opened your wallet, and haven't yet been spent. That will exclude a lot of unnecessary information.

On second thought: I don't think the bold part should be the default: if you use multiple wallets, or resync your main wallet, you'd want your spent inputs to show up too.

dkbit98

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Quote from: Pmalek on June 26, 2024, 02:45:52 PM

The latest 6.6.7 version of Blue Wallet now has support for silent payments. At the moment, you can only use Blue Wallet to send to silent payment addresses. The release notes don't mention that you can use the app to create a silent payment address. I am running the latest version on my phone and I tried to create a new wallet, but I couldn't find silent payments among the options.

Thanks for reporting.
I added Blue Wallet to the list of wallets that (partially) support Silent Payments.
More wallets will eventually add Silent Payments when they become more stable.

Latest blog article explaining how Silent Payments work:
https://medium.com/@ottosch/how-silent-payments-work-41bea907d6b0

LoyceV

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on June 27, 2024, 10:18:40 AM

In the case with silent payments, it can be implemented more efficiently than in Feather: Request from the server to send you only transactions that contain a Taproot ouput, occurred after the last time you opened your wallet, and haven't yet been spent. That will exclude a lot of unnecessary information.

Thanks, this makes sense. It's quite genius!

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: LoyceV on June 27, 2024, 10:05:23 AM

How? From what I understand about Silent Payments, you'll need to check all blocks to see which payments belong to you. If you use a light (or web) wallet, how can your wallet know this without a central server also knowing it?

Think of it like Monero: when you request blocks from a FeatherWallet server, the server does not know which coins are yours. You're just downloading blocks, checking if any of the transactions are yours, and if not, discarding. The server does not know which transactions you keep.

Quote from: LoyceV on June 27, 2024, 10:05:23 AM

That's what I mean: I don't see how this can work without the server knowing the details and without the user downloading all (new) blocks?

In the case with silent payments, it can be implemented more efficiently than in Feather: Request from the server to send you only transactions that contain a Taproot ouput, occurred after the last time you opened your wallet, and haven't yet been spent. That will exclude a lot of unnecessary information.

LoyceV

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Quote from: dkbit98 on June 14, 2024, 03:49:00 AM

Quote from: LoyceV on June 14, 2024, 03:00:42 AM

They won't know who you are, but wouldn't they still be able to link all Silent Payments together? Say you post your SP-address here, and receive 2 donations. You'll receive both of them on a different Bitcoin address. But Silentium will know they belong together, right?

No they won't.
Only sender and receiver know addresses and amounts that are send

How? From what I understand about Silent Payments, you'll need to check all blocks to see which payments belong to you. If you use a light (or web) wallet, how can your wallet know this without a central server also knowing it?

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on June 26, 2024, 04:04:07 PM

I'm skeptical about Electrum, because their priority is to be lightweight, and silent payments move the burden to the user

That's what I mean: I don't see how this can work without the server knowing the details and without the user downloading all (new) blocks?

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

It'll take a while to spread on the reputable wallet software. I'm skeptical about Electrum, because their priority is to be lightweight, and silent payments move the burden to the user, but at least it's optional. You could argue the same about lightning, and they've written an entire lightning network implementation.

Let's see. Electrum and Sparrow are the ones that will activate the network effect.

Pmalek

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The latest 6.6.7 version of Blue Wallet now has support for silent payments. At the moment, you can only use Blue Wallet to send to silent payment addresses. The release notes don't mention that you can use the app to create a silent payment address. I am running the latest version on my phone and I tried to create a new wallet, but I couldn't find silent payments among the options.

dkbit98

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Quote from: LoyceV on June 14, 2024, 03:00:42 AM

They won't know who you are, but wouldn't they still be able to link all Silent Payments together? Say you post your SP-address here, and receive 2 donations. You'll receive both of them on a different Bitcoin address. But Silentium will know they belong together, right?

No they won't.
Only sender and receiver know addresses and amounts that are send, but it's obviously always better to run a full node.
Someone could potentially suspect that your addresses are used if you consolidate exact amounts later into one address.

Easy to add node in Cake wallet settings.

Quote from: LoyceV on June 14, 2024, 03:00:42 AM

I've never used it, and just checked: it's a phone app. I assume the server will handle the details on the Silent Payment, right? So it still defeats the purpose of "keeping it silent".

There is also Cake wallet for desktop, Linux, Mac and wind0ws.

More about silent payments:
https://silentpayments.xyz/

LoyceV

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Quote from: dkbit98 on June 12, 2024, 01:48:39 PM

You can use Silentium with tor browser to hide your IP address, and I think you can generate seed words offline.

They won't know who you are, but wouldn't they still be able to link all Silent Payments together? Say you post your SP-address here, and receive 2 donations. You'll receive both of them on a different Bitcoin address. But Silentium will know they belong together, right?
I won't claim to fully understand how Silend Payments work, but as far as I know, running a full node is the only way to make sure nobody else knows which transactions belong to the same SP-address.

Quote

Cake wallet works much better but note that Silent Payments is still in beta phase.

I've never used it, and just checked: it's a phone app. I assume the server will handle the details on the Silent Payment, right? So it still defeats the purpose of "keeping it silent".

dkbit98

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Quote from: LoyceV on June 10, 2024, 04:35:20 AM

Isn't a web wallet the opposite of what you'd want for Silent Payments? It's convenient, because you don't have to process all blocks, but your privacy depends on a third party.

You can use Silentium with tor browser to hide your IP address, and I think you can generate seed words offline.
I am not supporting any wallets in this list, and Silentium is more experimental proof of concept wallet to test how Silent Payments work, so it should not be used with larger amount of coins.
There are some reports from users with coins getting stuck using Silentium because of sync issues, so I don't recommend it for anything serious.
Cake wallet works much better but note that Silent Payments is still in beta phase.

LoyceV

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Quote from: dkbit98 on May 17, 2024, 05:11:25 AM

Isn't a web wallet the opposite of what you'd want for Silent Payments? It's convenient, because you don't have to process all blocks, but your privacy depends on a third party.

Quote from: PrivacyG on June 08, 2024, 06:33:07 AM

Is there a discussion about Silent Payments going around on the Forum? I just found out about it, am very curious to learn more but I do not think I understand how it works yet.

See witcher_sense's topic: Silent payments.

Topic: Wallets supporting Silent Payments (Read 754 times)