Wasabi or Samourai ? | Bitcointalksearch.org

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: Bitcoiner2023 on August 01, 2023, 01:26:27 PM

Why are they doing this voluntarily?

Because they want to protect their income stream against future regulations. So they chose to preemptively sell out their users rather than go down a more difficult route which might affect their profits.

Quote from: Bitcoiner2023 on August 01, 2023, 01:26:27 PM

I think they received a silent post like Truecrypt did, but Truecrypt decided to stop the project instead of installing a backdoor.

Which is what Wasabi should have done if they actually care about privacy in any way. They don't. They care about making money.

Quote from: Bitcoiner2023 on August 01, 2023, 01:26:27 PM

About JoinMarket:
It is extremely time-consuming and complicated, I hope they simplify it in this bull market, it has to be more user-friendly

I agree, and I've spoken about this before. JoinMarket, although great, simply isn't suitable for the majority of users as it is too complicated to set up. There is a great UI for JoinMarket called Jam (https://jamdocs.org/) which makes using JoinMarket easier, but the installation process is still not straightforward.

Quote from: Bitcoiner2023 on August 01, 2023, 01:26:27 PM

And Samourai should release a desktop version without needing any mobile app for it.
But well, there is Sparrow.

Yeah, Sparrow is a great piece of software.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 01, 2023, 09:25:46 AM

Wasabi admitted they are doing it voluntarily and preemptively.

Why are they doing this voluntarily?
I think they received a silent post like Truecrypt did, but Truecrypt decided to stop the project instead of installing a backdoor.
I can't give any other explanation why Wasabi does something like that.

I think Lightning would also be a good alternative, if you have your channels on private.
From Layer1 to Layer2 then from Chanel-A to Chanel-B from Chanel-B to Chanel-C and from Chanel-C to Layer1.

About JoinMarket:
It is extremely time-consuming and complicated, I hope they simplify it in this bull market, it has to be more user-friendly

And Samourai should release a desktop version without needing any mobile app for it.
But well, there is Sparrow.

Thank u and best regards

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: Bitcoiner2023 on August 01, 2023, 06:53:18 AM

Isn't there a risk that Whirlpool and JoinMarket will come under the same pressure from the government as Wasabi did?

Sort of. With Samourai, yes, although their team are so vehemently opposed to surveillance I'd be very surprised if they capitulated, and they are also working on a decentralized coordinator which would bypass any such pressure. With JoinMarket, not really since there already is no centralized coordinator.

It's also worth pointing out that at present there are no government laws or regulations which forced Wasabi to surveil and censor their users. Wasabi admitted they are doing it voluntarily and preemptively.

Quote from: Bitcoiner2023 on August 01, 2023, 06:53:18 AM

Sparrow & Samourai Whirlpool share the same coordinator right?

Yes.

Quote from: Bitcoiner2023 on August 01, 2023, 06:53:18 AM

Does JoinMarket have its own coordinator or is it the same as Sparrow and Samourai's Whirlpool?

No. Each JoinMarket user runs the software themselves and coordinates their own coinjoins if they are the taker.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 01, 2023, 05:47:42 AM

Running your own coordinator is a different question to connecting to your own node. But given there are zero third party coordinators with any volume, and given both JoinMarket and Whirlpool both have good volume, then as you say - why would anyone bother?

Thank you, will definitely not use Wasabi, thought it would look different with your own node.

Isn't there a risk that Whirlpool and JoinMarket will come under the same pressure from the government as Wasabi did?

Sparrow & Samourai Whirlpool share the same coordinator right?
Does JoinMarket have its own coordinator or is it the same as Sparrow and Samourai's Whirlpool?

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Quote from: Bitcoiner2023 on August 01, 2023, 04:50:44 AM

Would it make a difference if you connect Wasabi to your own node?

No difference. You can connect to your own node, but you will still be using their coordinator, which will be handing all your UTXOs and the fees you pay directly to blockchain analysis companies.

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on August 01, 2023, 05:00:53 AM

Probably, yes. It's beyond the skill set of the average Wasabi user to disconnect from the default coordinator and connect to yours.

Running your own coordinator is a different question to connecting to your own node. But given there are zero third party coordinators with any volume, and given both JoinMarket and Whirlpool both have good volume, then as you say - why would anyone bother?

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: Bitcoiner2023 on August 01, 2023, 04:50:44 AM

Would it make a difference if you connect Wasabi to your own node?

Probably, yes. It's beyond the skill set of the average Wasabi user to disconnect from the default coordinator and connect to yours. But, maybe it isn't that much difficult, I haven't tried. I only know they aren't heading into that direction, so why using their software?

Quote from: Bitcoiner2023 on August 01, 2023, 04:50:44 AM

Or does the violation of privacy still exist?

They claim that blacklisting doesn't exist if you connect to your own coordinator. However, considering the numerous lies and the fact that I haven't examined the source code, I'm taking that statement with a grain of salt.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on July 21, 2023, 03:27:10 AM

I've spoken at length about why no one should ever use Wasabi so I won't repeat all that here. Suffice to say, they directly fund blockchain analysis, they are anti-privacy, pro-surveillance, and pro-censorship. If you want privacy, Wasabi is the last place you should look.

Would it make a difference if you connect Wasabi to your own node?
Or does the violation of privacy still exist?

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Quote from: Jon_Hodl on July 25, 2023, 09:34:32 AM

Samourai is also currently in the process of decentralizing their coordinator so that users can select their own coordinator (not just Samourai) and even offer coordinator services to others which will enable anyone to generate revenue from coordinating CoinJoin txs.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to this. They already have a prototype running on testnet apparently: https://nitter.nl/SamouraiDev/status/1679092893171040256#m

Would be great to run your own coordinator over the same liquidity pool, kind of like how Joinmarket works. I wonder if their fee model will change if you are running your own coordinator?

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Quote from: Bitcoiner2023 on July 20, 2023, 04:15:09 PM

Which one would you recommend more?

Hmm, on the spot I would prefer the Samourai, Reason reported by most of the users above. Haha, also I am having a look at how my fellows are promoting their personal favorite mixers. As Op seems like to the space I would recommend you to better focus on securing the funds rather than making them more private, haha, Privacy comes later to security.

Mixers are Privacy solutions if you want to service in the crypto market avoiding any sort of law enforcement on your asset Mixers can support you in achieving a 1 step higher Privacy to avoid such situations.

Haha after reading a few more posts from Op seems like he really needs the Mixer haha because he is asking for the cross-chain swap vs Centralized exchange deposit and than mixing the coins by some service. Buddy is showing his concern for privacy and I found myself wrong on the above comment of Privacy.

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I would recommend Samourai because it offers superior privacy by making every UTXO the same size, offers a larger anon set via endless remixes, and does not reuse addresses. Samourai is also currently in the process of decentralizing their coordinator so that users can select their own coordinator (not just Samourai) and even offer coordinator services to others which will enable anyone to generate revenue from coordinating CoinJoin txs. With enough coordinators competing, we could potentially see lower CoinJoin fees.

I would also like to point out that if you are using either method but you are not running your own node, you are trusting both your wallet as well as the CoinJoin coordinator with your xPub key which is completely antithetical to the whole idea of increased privacy via CoinJoin.

Not sure if you're interested but I actually wrote an article that is all about How To Use Bitcoin Anonymously that you might find useful if you are looking to increase the privacy of your bitcoin addresses and on-chain transactions.

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Quote from: Bitcoiner2023 on July 22, 2023, 05:27:42 PM

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on July 22, 2023, 03:26:39 AM

What are you trying to achieve? Do have KYCed bitcoin which would want to unlink from your real identity? Are you trying to mix some other altcoin?

No, I don't have any KYC Bitcoins, I have accumulated Ethereum for years and now I want to keep my assets safe with Bitcoin.

The problem is, there is a lot over the last few years and Bisq / Hodl Hodl liquidity is to low and CoinJoin / Whirlpool / just takes too long.

So what would be better?
Send everything to Binance switch it to BTC and then CoinJoin even if it takes a long time...

Or better decentralized cross chain swap / bridge

If the OP wants to secure your assets to Bitcoin I think Binance and CoinJoin could be better choices in my opinion. However, the Relevant Decision to choose to use Binance and CoinJoin or choose a decentralized cross-chain swap/bridge is up to the user's priorities. Btw, If security and privacy are paramount, a decentralized, cross-chain solution may be preferable. the important thing is we are familiar with it.

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: FinneysTrueVision on July 23, 2023, 12:34:35 AM

I've always recommended Joinmarket over Whirlpool and Wasabi. Fewer dumb ways to leak your privacy but there are other tradeoffs and isn't the ideal service for inexperienced users.

Wasabi is inferior in privacy than Joinmarket (for obvious reasons), but speaking out of experience with Joinmarket, I've got to mention these two big downsides:

Expensive for market takers. The TL;DR of Joinmarket, is that there are always some makers online, so when a user who isn't a whale wants to mix their coins, they don't have to wait, but they have to pay the mining fee for all the makers' inputs. Makers don't pay their inputs, takers do, and when there are 9 to 12 inputs, few of which are theirs, then the cost of coinjoining can become really high.
Not exclusive to Joinmarket, but it isn't realistic to be a market maker if you don't own lots of money. Software does include a default of 12.5% chance of ignoring fidelity bonds, but it's really improbable to be picked if you're not going to see this seriously.

I have also talked about this in here: https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver/issues/1506

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Quote from: Bitcoiner2023 on July 21, 2023, 08:20:59 AM

Do you think it would be better if I swap my ETH to btc via Cross Chain Swap?

Or switch ETH to BTC on Central Exchange and then CoinJoin/Whirlpool?

It would be best if you could swap etherium to monero and than monero to Bitcoin, you can even use decentralized exchange Bisq for that.
That way you won't have to use any centralized exchanges or CoinJoin/Whirlpool, but you can still do it later if you want.
In theory atomic swaps should also work fine for swapping eth-xmr-btc.

Quote from: Bitcoiner2023 on July 23, 2023, 05:28:10 PM

Is there anything against Decentralized Cross Chain Swap or Bridge?

Atomic Swap, AtomicDEX (now renamed to Komodo Wallet).

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Quote from: RickDeckard on July 23, 2023, 05:20:36 PM

I also wasn't aware of this, but in a recent discussion from apogio[1] I found out about JAM[1][3] which is a web interface for JoinMarket that tries to be more user friendly for less technical advanced users.

I still haven't got round to trying Jam because I have no need to given I've been running JoinMarket with no issues for years, but my understanding is that it still is not average user friendly in the same way that Samourai or Sparrow is. If you aren't running Umbrel, Raspiblitz, or similar (which average users aren't), then the manual installation is still too complicated.

For example: https://jamdocs.org/software/installation/#with-docker-image

There is a big knowledge difference required between these instructions and running a simple app.

Quote from: Bitcoiner2023 on July 23, 2023, 05:28:10 PM

Is there anything against Decentralized Cross Chain Swap or Bridge?
Or can I use something like THORChain?

If privacy is your goal, you will achieve absolute nothing doing this. Everything done via THORChain is fully public and traceable by anyone. THORChain even admit this themselves:

Quote from: https://nitter.net/THORChain/status/1510000092593340417

THORChain is not a mixer and does not give privacy. In fact, it takes it all away. Do not conflate the two functions.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on July 23, 2023, 12:48:44 AM

If your ETH was all purchased peer to peer and not linked to your KYC, then swapping it on a centralized exchange puts you back to square one. You can still do this and then mix it as above, or you can trade it peer to peer and just be patient while you wait on enough liquidity to swap it all.

Is there anything against Decentralized Cross Chain Swap or Bridge?
Or can I use something like THORChain?

RickDeckard

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on July 23, 2023, 12:48:44 AM

Quote from: FinneysTrueVision on July 23, 2023, 12:34:35 AM

I've always recommended Joinmarket over Whirlpool and Wasabi. Fewer dumb ways to leak your privacy but there are other tradeoffs and isn't the ideal service for inexperienced users.

Yeah, this is the biggest problem with JoinMarket - it isn't just plug and play like Samourai or Sparrow.

@FinneysTrueVision: I also wasn't aware of this, but in a recent discussion from apogio[1] I found out about JAM[1][3] which is a web interface for JoinMarket that tries to be more user friendly for less technical advanced users. While I'm still using JoinMarket, JAM is looking rather good and I might give it a shot later when it leaves beta.

[1]https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-privacy-address-reuse-5459335
[2]https://github.com/joinmarket-webui/jam
[3]https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-privacy-address-reuse-5459335.msg62538568#msg62538568

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Quote from: Bitcoiner2023 on July 22, 2023, 05:27:42 PM

Send everything to Binance switch it to BTC and then CoinJoin even if it takes a long time...

Or better decentralized cross chain swap / bridge

Well, it depends. Is your ETH already KYCed and linked to your identity? If it is, then sending it to a centralized exchange and swapping it for KYCed bitcoin won't make your privacy any worse (assuming you are happy with the security risk of sending your coins to a centralized exchange). From there you will need to mix your bitcoin using either coinjoin or a mixer.

If your ETH was all purchased peer to peer and not linked to your KYC, then swapping it on a centralized exchange puts you back to square one. You can still do this and then mix it as above, or you can trade it peer to peer and just be patient while you wait on enough liquidity to swap it all.

Quote from: FinneysTrueVision on July 23, 2023, 12:34:35 AM

I've always recommended Joinmarket over Whirlpool and Wasabi. Fewer dumb ways to leak your privacy but there are other tradeoffs and isn't the ideal service for inexperienced users.

Yeah, this is the biggest problem with JoinMarket - it isn't just plug and play like Samourai or Sparrow.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on July 22, 2023, 03:26:39 AM

There is literally no reason to ever subject yourself to blockchain analysis (and pay for the privilege!) by using Wasabi.

Blockchain surveillance companies, including Samourai's own closed source chain analysis, don't care if you want to be subjected to it or not. They are already analyzing coinjoin participants. The coordinator fee, which is where Wasabi's funds for blockchain analysis come from, can be entirely avoided.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on July 22, 2023, 03:26:39 AM

So just leave your coins for longer for unlimited free remixes, and you will certainly mix with other users running their own node.

Waiting for weeks to use your coins is impractical. How many of those users running their own node were using Samourai when they would still collect your xpub and the trusted node feature was only for broadcasting transactions? How many of those users will compromise other participants privacy by consolidating their toxic change due to the UTXO's being below the minimum amount accepted into whirlpool?

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on July 22, 2023, 03:26:39 AM

Or use JoinMarket instead.

I've always recommended Joinmarket over Whirlpool and Wasabi. Fewer dumb ways to leak your privacy but there are other tradeoffs and isn't the ideal service for inexperienced users.

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Quote from: Bitcoiner2023 on July 22, 2023, 05:27:42 PM

No, I don't have any KYC Bitcoins, I have accumulated Ethereum for years and now I want to keep my assets safe with Bitcoin.

The problem is, there is a lot over the last few years and Bisq / Hodl Hodl liquidity is to low and CoinJoin / Whirlpool / just takes too long.

So what would be better?
Send everything to Binance switch it to BTC and then CoinJoin even if it takes a long time...

Or better decentralized cross chain swap / bridge

If you are concerned about your privacy, you'd not send them to Binance in order to swap it to Bitcoin, because even after swapping and using CoinJoin, Binance will still have the logs pertaining to your transaction, thus i don't think you should do it that way.

There are quite a lot of centralized exchanges feigning to be decentralized, thus you have to be careful to avoid them, for privacy you may send the ETH to Binance and then sell it for fiat, and then use fiat to buy Bitcoin in Bisq, or you can set your own order in Bisq for an ETH to Bitcoin trade.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on July 22, 2023, 03:26:39 AM

What are you trying to achieve? Do have KYCed bitcoin which would want to unlink from your real identity? Are you trying to mix some other altcoin?

No, I don't have any KYC Bitcoins, I have accumulated Ethereum for years and now I want to keep my assets safe with Bitcoin.

The problem is, there is a lot over the last few years and Bisq / Hodl Hodl liquidity is to low and CoinJoin / Whirlpool / just takes too long.

So what would be better?
Send everything to Binance switch it to BTC and then CoinJoin even if it takes a long time...

Or better decentralized cross chain swap / bridge

Topic: Wasabi or Samourai ? (Read 580 times)