I will add the list of mixers in 2020 to the Chinese version, and I look forward to your comments
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/2020-5247254
Topic: Wasabi Wallet - Making Bitcoin Transactions Untraceable (Read 1143 times)
It says "new version available" in the lower left corner. Can I just install a new version and my wallet will be the same as before or is it a little more complicated?
What is new and does it make sense to update to the newer version?
What is new and does it make sense to update to the newer version?
A more secure way to update your version would be to download from the official website, verify it and then install it. Each version is different so you might want to look at the update log. Most of the time, updating to the latest version is recommended (if there's any) because the app is considered more secure, has more features, etc.
Can I just install a new version and my wallet will be the same as before or is it a little more complicated?
What is new and does it make sense to update to the newer version?
What is new and does it make sense to update to the newer version?
- usually wallets keep backward compatibility which means when you upgrade to a new version they can continue using the wallet you already had. it is however safer to always make and keep a backup of your wallet or seed.
- they don't keep a separate change log. there is only the release notes here: https://github.com/zkSNACKs/WalletWasabi/releases it is a good idea to upgrade, but you have to read what they changed to decide if it makes sense to do it and if it is mandatory (like fixing a bug) or not.
Hi.
I installed wasabi a few weeks ago. The implemented tor-feature was what it sold it to me.
I'm quite a noob in the bitcoin world and still trying out and learning a lot of stuff.
Can I ask two questions concerning wasabi wallet?
It says "new version available" in the lower left corner. Can I just install a new version and my wallet will be the same as before or is it a little more complicated?
What is new and does it make sense to update to the newer version?
Also, what would happen if I would "coinjoin" a coin that has been coinjoined before and shows a privacy level of 65 when mouse over?
Thanks, Dimitri
I installed wasabi a few weeks ago. The implemented tor-feature was what it sold it to me.
I'm quite a noob in the bitcoin world and still trying out and learning a lot of stuff.
Can I ask two questions concerning wasabi wallet?
It says "new version available" in the lower left corner. Can I just install a new version and my wallet will be the same as before or is it a little more complicated?
What is new and does it make sense to update to the newer version?
Also, what would happen if I would "coinjoin" a coin that has been coinjoined before and shows a privacy level of 65 when mouse over?
Thanks, Dimitri
https://twitter.com/zeroleak/status/1180482958194565122
Why do they always shit-talk wasabi but not the others?
Quote
Poor mixer design leads to unpredictable privacy leaks and self-shuffling.
Seems like misrepresentation to me. Stuff from coinjoins will always condense together in the end? Anonymity sets are gonna decay.Why do they always shit-talk wasabi but not the others?
a btc wallet with anonymous transactions and open source? is a must try but i will wait for a final version before downloading it...
It does not have anonymous transaction per se, but offers the option to use coinjoin, which results in anonymizing your coins (anonymity set = 100).
Most (if not all) open source wallets are work in progress.
The latest wasabi version is 1.1.6.
I don't know how you define 'final version', but 1.0 is release (no longer beta etc.).
a btc wallet with anonymous transactions and open source? is a must try but i will wait for a final version before downloading it...
There is no real need to mix small amounts.
Why not?
There is no real need to mix small amounts. So setting a high minimum for coinjoin use is viable. I don't expect many users willing to mix 10$ or even less. The problem is with that this is a new wallet, still in test phase. No one can afford 300$ to loose (probably) in a wallet test.
Actually, the integration of coinjoin service within a wallet software is a greatest feature, helping the wallet to compete with other wallet softwares but also with blenders. May be setting a high minimum coinjoin amount for wasabi is a clever strategie towards mixers: if you have a small amount, just use any traditional mixer.
I expect this new wallet to get more attention from the crypto community. I really find it useful.
Actually, the integration of coinjoin service within a wallet software is a greatest feature, helping the wallet to compete with other wallet softwares but also with blenders. May be setting a high minimum coinjoin amount for wasabi is a clever strategie towards mixers: if you have a small amount, just use any traditional mixer.
I expect this new wallet to get more attention from the crypto community. I really find it useful.
How long would it typically take to use coinjoin anyway? From start to finish that would mean.
As I could see this hurting centralized mixers pretty badly, though only if the time spent mixing is close to comparable. Let me know!
As I could see this hurting centralized mixers pretty badly, though only if the time spent mixing is close to comparable. Let me know!
Last time I gave it a whirl (a couple of weeks ago) it took about 3 hours in the best case and I gave up after 6 hours in the worst case. Maybe it's better now, but it seems like there's still a bit of a chicken-egg problem: The less people use it, the less convenient it is to use, the less likely people are to use it again. I think especially the relatively large minimum amount (compared to centralized mixers) makes it harder for people to join, leading to prolonged waiting times. I do hope this gets better in time and as awareness spreads.
Hm, yeah that's a pretty big problem -- though I do see the Catch 22 type issue here and that's not something which is good.
I think another issue with Wasabi is the issue of there being too high of a minimum for conjoin, which I think is around .099 (somewhere around $380 USD as of right now) That's going to price a good deal of people out of using this service, and that's pretty sad to see as it is a good service that could be used to bring privacy to so many. I don't know the reason behind this sort of minimum, I do hope that there is someone here that could shine some light on that.
How long would it typically take to use coinjoin anyway? From start to finish that would mean.
As I could see this hurting centralized mixers pretty badly, though only if the time spent mixing is close to comparable. Let me know!
As I could see this hurting centralized mixers pretty badly, though only if the time spent mixing is close to comparable. Let me know!
Last time I gave it a whirl (a couple of weeks ago) it took about 3 hours in the best case and I gave up after 6 hours in the worst case. Maybe it's better now, but it seems like there's still a bit of a chicken-egg problem: The less people use it, the less convenient it is to use, the less likely people are to use it again. I think especially the relatively large minimum amount (compared to centralized mixers) makes it harder for people to join, leading to prolonged waiting times. I do hope this gets better in time and as awareness spreads.
How long would it typically take to use coinjoin anyway? From start to finish that would mean.
As I could see this hurting centralized mixers pretty badly, though only if the time spent mixing is close to comparable. Let me know!
As I could see this hurting centralized mixers pretty badly, though only if the time spent mixing is close to comparable. Let me know!
I have used ChipMixer yesterday. Still waiting for my "chips", admin is offline.
Another user is complaining on Privcoin's thread. He is probably in worse situation, because PrivCoin's admin was last online almost 3 months ago.
I believe that I will eventually get my coins from ChipMixer, when admin decide to take care of his business, but I will never again use mixers. Switching to Wasabi Wallet completely.
Another user is complaining on Privcoin's thread. He is probably in worse situation, because PrivCoin's admin was last online almost 3 months ago.
I believe that I will eventually get my coins from ChipMixer, when admin decide to take care of his business, but I will never again use mixers. Switching to Wasabi Wallet completely.
Chainalysis and traditional (centralized) mixers are united in one thing:
Hate Wasabi Wallet!
Hate Wasabi Wallet!
Then I will ask you this. Is it an impossible idea that NO CRIMINALS are using mixers, and coinjoins?
Believing that all coins going through them are "clean", would be stupid.
Believing that all coins going through them are "clean", would be stupid.
Of course not, and no one ever said that. But if applied correctly they make coins lose your taint (note: taint in the neutral sense of tracked coins, not in a criminal sense). And that's the one you want to get rid of.
Tumblers and coinjoins are important for both fungibility and privacy because they make the concept of taint pretty much useless. And you want the concept of taint to be pretty much useless, because otherwise you couldn't accept Bitcoin payments for fear of receiving tainted coins -- even if coins would look untainted to you, they could still look tainted to someone else. And a currency you can't accept is a currency you can't spend is a useless currency.
@All: Sorry for having derailed the thread, I hope you enjoy the show.
One more reason to not use Coinbase then. Any exchange that goes beyond the necessities of KYC / AML should be avoided like the plague. If you get your account frozen on the likes of Coinbase you should have stuck with PayPal. Same difference, but without the extra steps of going through crypto.
That was not the point of the debate, and not using an exchange is an insignificant a solution to the taint problem.
Not using an exchange that is trigger happy in freezing accounts beyond what is legally required of them is a solution however.
There's plenty of alternatives that are not quite as restrictive while still sticking to global and local regulations -- even amongst centralized exchanges. Additionally using a centralized service as wallet is leading the concept of cryptocurrencies ad absurdum anyway.
I absolutely respect if an exchange freezes an account because they are subpoenaed to do so based on concrete suspicions by law enforcement. But if Coinbase starts getting PayPal on people's asses it's time to move out.
But that does not solve the problem that we could be digging ourselves in a deeper hole when we taint our coins further through mixers, tumblers, and coinjoins.
It goes back to the debate. What kind of users have too much to hide that are incentivized to pay for tumbling, and why should I mix my coins with their coins?
Would you, personally, post your bank statements publicly on the internet?
No, but neither would drug dealers, money launderers, scammers, or thieves.
So does this make you a drug dealer, money launderer or thieve? It doesn't. And neither does wanting some privacy on public blockchains.
What is the estimated, average fee to mix 1 Bitcoin?
Wasabi Wallet charges 0.003% per anonymity set which apparently comes down to 0.15% per transaction [1]. ChipMixer relies on donations and can thus be used to mix for free, but will keep any amount smaller than 0.001 BTC as donation [2]. Other options likely fall within similar fee ranges.
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/9sziy5/privacy_wasabi_wallet_10_is_finally_released/e90mlvu/
[2] https://chipmixer.com/faq
How much in Bitcoin on average for tumblers?
Wasabi is 0.15 Bitcoins?
0.15% of 1 BTC is 0.0015 BTC
Most Bitcoin ATMs and Local Bitcoin sellers charge around 2% - 5%. Even Coinbase charges 1.49% [1] which is literally an order of magnitude more expensive.
[1] https://support.coinbase.com/customer/en/portal/articles/1826294-how-are-fees-applied-when-i-buy-or-sell-digital-currency-
Or people with something to hide.
Not being able to keep private from governments is a threat to democracy. Heck, to any free society that relies on a centralized, hierarchical government.
As is the thinking that only "people with something to hide" want privacy.
Remember East Germany. I don't even want to imagine what a modern day Stasi could do with modern technology and data at hand.
This is the point! In their search for privacy, they might be digging themselves into a deeper hole because they would be mixing their coins with "tainted dirty" coins.
As long as it's not their own "tainted" coins their privacy is prevailed. You can't be held accountable for crimes you didn't commit.
But some exchanges might protect themselves by freezing your account, and confiscate your coins. People holding tainted coins are still at risk.
Quote
If you're worried about using privacy enhancing methods because it may make you look suspious, you might be already be living in an oppressive regime. The only antidote against privacy enhancing methods becoming suspicious, is privacy enhancing tools becoming the norm.
Keep in mind, only a couple decades back, secure internet connections where deemed technology that should not be available to the regular citizen -- because what would they have to hide? Nowadays a world without HTTPS would be unthinkable, with ecommerce and ebanking being an impossibility.
---
Anyway, it's hard to objectively discuss something that is mostly a matter of personal philosophy. Luckily Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies offer possibilities to be as private or as transparent as personally preferred. Just remember that equating "privacy" with "crime" is not a slippery slope, but the ditch at the end of it.
Then I will ask you this. Is it an impossible idea that NO CRIMINALS are using mixers, and coinjoins?
Believing that all coins going through them are "clean", would be stupid.
One more reason to not use Coinbase then. Any exchange that goes beyond the necessities of KYC / AML should be avoided like the plague. If you get your account frozen on the likes of Coinbase you should have stuck with PayPal. Same difference, but without the extra steps of going through crypto.
That was not the point of the debate, and not using an exchange is an insignificant a solution to the taint problem.
Not using an exchange that is trigger happy in freezing accounts beyond what is legally required of them is a solution however.
There's plenty of alternatives that are not quite as restrictive while still sticking to global and local regulations -- even amongst centralized exchanges. Additionally using a centralized service as wallet is leading the concept of cryptocurrencies ad absurdum anyway.
I absolutely respect if an exchange freezes an account because they are subpoenaed to do so based on concrete suspicions by law enforcement. But if Coinbase starts getting PayPal on people's asses it's time to move out.
It goes back to the debate. What kind of users have too much to hide that are incentivized to pay for tumbling, and why should I mix my coins with their coins?
Would you, personally, post your bank statements publicly on the internet?
No, but neither would drug dealers, money launderers, scammers, or thieves.
So does this make you a drug dealer, money launderer or thieve? It doesn't. And neither does wanting some privacy on public blockchains.
What is the estimated, average fee to mix 1 Bitcoin?
Wasabi Wallet charges 0.003% per anonymity set which apparently comes down to 0.15% per transaction [1]. ChipMixer relies on donations and can thus be used to mix for free, but will keep any amount smaller than 0.001 BTC as donation [2]. Other options likely fall within similar fee ranges.
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/9sziy5/privacy_wasabi_wallet_10_is_finally_released/e90mlvu/
[2] https://chipmixer.com/faq
How much in Bitcoin on average for tumblers?
Wasabi is 0.15 Bitcoins?
0.15% of 1 BTC is 0.0015 BTC
Most Bitcoin ATMs and Local Bitcoin sellers charge around 2% - 5%. Even Coinbase charges 1.49% [1] which is literally an order of magnitude more expensive.
[1] https://support.coinbase.com/customer/en/portal/articles/1826294-how-are-fees-applied-when-i-buy-or-sell-digital-currency-
Or people with something to hide.
Not being able to keep private from governments is a threat to democracy. Heck, to any free society that relies on a centralized, hierarchical government.
As is the thinking that only "people with something to hide" want privacy.
Remember East Germany. I don't even want to imagine what a modern day Stasi could do with modern technology and data at hand.
This is the point! In their search for privacy, they might be digging themselves into a deeper hole because they would be mixing their coins with "tainted dirty" coins.
As long as it's not their own "tainted" coins their privacy is prevailed. You can't be held accountable for crimes you didn't commit.
If you're worried about using privacy enhancing methods because it may make you look suspious, you might be already be living in an oppressive regime. The only antidote against privacy enhancing methods becoming suspicious, is privacy enhancing tools becoming the norm.
Keep in mind, only a couple decades back, secure internet connections where deemed technology that should not be available to the regular citizen -- because what would they have to hide? Nowadays a world without HTTPS would be unthinkable, with ecommerce and ebanking being an impossibility.
---
Anyway, it's hard to objectively discuss something that is mostly a matter of personal philosophy. Luckily Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies offer possibilities to be as private or as transparent as personally preferred. Just remember that equating "privacy" with "crime" is not a slippery slope, but the ditch at the end of it.
No they won't. But some exchanges, like Coinbase, will mark your account if your coins are tainted, and will sometimes freeze your account, and confiscate your coins.
One more reason to not use Coinbase then. Any exchange that goes beyond the necessities of KYC / AML should be avoided like the plague. If you get your account frozen on the likes of Coinbase you should have stuck with PayPal. Same difference, but without the extra steps of going through crypto.
That was not the point of the debate, and not using an exchange is an insignificant a solution to the taint problem.
It goes back to the debate. What kind of users have too much to hide that are incentivized to pay for tumbling, and why should I mix my coins with their coins?
Would you, personally, post your bank statements publicly on the internet?
No, but neither would drug dealers, money launderers, scammers, or thieves.
What is the estimated, average fee to mix 1 Bitcoin?
Wasabi Wallet charges 0.003% per anonymity set which apparently comes down to 0.15% per transaction [1]. ChipMixer relies on donations and can thus be used to mix for free, but will keep any amount smaller than 0.001 BTC as donation [2]. Other options likely fall within similar fee ranges.
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/9sziy5/privacy_wasabi_wallet_10_is_finally_released/e90mlvu/
[2] https://chipmixer.com/faq
How much in Bitcoin on average for tumblers?
Wasabi is 0.15 Bitcoins?
Or people with something to hide.
Not being able to keep private from governments is a threat to democracy. Heck, to any free society that relies on a centralized, hierarchical government.
As is the thinking that only "people with something to hide" want privacy.
Remember East Germany. I don't even want to imagine what a modern day Stasi could do with modern technology and data at hand.
This is the point! In their search for privacy, they might be digging themselves into a deeper hole because they would be mixing their coins with "tainted dirty" coins.
No they won't. But some exchanges, like Coinbase, will mark your account if your coins are tainted, and will sometimes freeze your account, and confiscate your coins.
One more reason to not use Coinbase then. Any exchange that goes beyond the necessities of KYC / AML should be avoided like the plague. If you get your account frozen on the likes of Coinbase you should have stuck with PayPal. Same difference, but without the extra steps of going through crypto.
It goes back to the debate. What kind of users have too much to hide that are incentivized to pay for tumbling, and why should I mix my coins with their coins?
Would you, personally, post your bank statements publicly on the internet?
What is the estimated, average fee to mix 1 Bitcoin?
Wasabi Wallet charges 0.003% per anonymity set which apparently comes down to 0.15% per transaction [1]. ChipMixer relies on donations and can thus be used to mix for free, but will keep any amount smaller than 0.001 BTC as donation [2]. Other options likely fall within similar fee ranges.
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/9sziy5/privacy_wasabi_wallet_10_is_finally_released/e90mlvu/
[2] https://chipmixer.com/faq
Or people with something to hide.
Not being able to keep private from governments is a threat to democracy. Heck, to any free society that relies on a centralized, hierarchical government.
As is the thinking that only "people with something to hide" want privacy.
Remember East Germany. I don't even want to imagine what a modern day Stasi could do with modern technology and data at hand.
That min limit's been coming down, from 0.1 BTC I believe, as more users join, the smaller the denomination possible if I understand.
There is the assumption that anyone seeking privacy with coinjoin and mixers are criminals and drug dealers... maybe throw in terrorists, blackmailers and kidnappers. It's a wrong assumption, and seeking privacy does not amount to criminality... But you're really not eliminating that risk of mixing coins with undesirable activity if you also use, say exchanges, casinos or trade P2P.
I've done all of that so would be really surprised if none of my coins are thus tainted.
Besides, just because you don't mix don't prevent anyone from dusting you with dirty satoshi.
There is the assumption that anyone seeking privacy with coinjoin and mixers are criminals and drug dealers... maybe throw in terrorists, blackmailers and kidnappers. It's a wrong assumption, and seeking privacy does not amount to criminality... But you're really not eliminating that risk of mixing coins with undesirable activity if you also use, say exchanges, casinos or trade P2P.
I've done all of that so would be really surprised if none of my coins are thus tainted.
Besides, just because you don't mix don't prevent anyone from dusting you with dirty satoshi.
But think about it, tumblers and coinjoins are not cheap, and who would be willing to pay for them to keep their privacy?
I believe an ordinary user would be digging himself into a bigger hole if he mixes his coins with what usually would be the criminals' coins.
Unless you mined your coins yourself you likely already hold coins that are tainted in one way or another. Merely holding a couple of sats that are linked to illicit businesses won't implicate you in any crime unless law enforcement has additional reason to believe in your involvement. Same goes for using TOR, prepaid phones and other means of anonymization. Using these tools do not make you a criminal and do not build a case against you (unless you're involved in an illicit business to begin with, obviously).
No they won't. But some exchanges, like Coinbase, will mark your account if your coins are tainted, and will sometimes freeze your account, and confiscate your coins.
Be careful if you believe you are safe because you tumbled your coins. They could be more tainted as a result.
Quote
In principal I get why tumblers have a bit of a bad rep, but in general I guess you could also see them as a bit of a workaround to "fix" Bitcoin's transparency. Bank account balances are not publicly accessible either, so why should Bitcoin balances be?
It goes back to the debate. What kind of users have too much to hide that are incentivized to pay for tumbling, and why should I mix my coins with their coins?
Quote
While coinjoins and tumblers are more work and require higher fees than regular Bitcoin transactions I wouldn't call them expensive either. Most Bitcoin ATMs and Localbitcoin traders charge higher fees than what coinjoins and tumblers entail.
What is the estimated, average fee to mix 1 Bitcoin?
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That being said I fully agree that only few people are willing to pay for keeping their privacy. Heck, most people don't even bother rejecting 3rd party cookies when being presented with a GDPR prompt. That shouldn't prevent anyone from making privacy tools easily accessible though.
Or people with something to hide.