Washington’s $210 Trillion Deficit

B.A.S.

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Quote from: oblivi on March 25, 2015, 12:04:09 PM

Quote from: aso118 on March 21, 2015, 04:09:06 AM

Quote from: alh on March 21, 2015, 03:11:33 AM

Could someone explain how this relates to Bitcoin? The overall Bitcoin economy and such doesn't register at all in this kind of discussion, does it?

The more governments screw up their monetary systems, the brighter Bitcoin's prospects become.

This would be the logical thing to think, but for this to become a fact we need educated people to know what Bitcoin is, otherwise if they want to save their money somewhere they will go for the classics (USD and metals).

BTC is currently one of the worst financial vehicles to place one's savings into. It is wildly speculative and far too volatile to risk hard earned capital for diminishing returns. Traditional savings routes in IRAs, CDs, mutual funds, heck even a savings account (as low as the interest rates are) are far more safe currently.

I liken BTC to that of a penny stock today. Put some cash into it. It may crash into the moon or hit the basement. What I find exciting is that BTC is educating the younger people of today (far more technologically advanced) on economics and how monetary policy works in a real-time way.

oblivi

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Quote from: aso118 on March 21, 2015, 04:09:06 AM

Quote from: alh on March 21, 2015, 03:11:33 AM

Could someone explain how this relates to Bitcoin? The overall Bitcoin economy and such doesn't register at all in this kind of discussion, does it?

The more governments screw up their monetary systems, the brighter Bitcoin's prospects become.

This would be the logical thing to think, but for this to become a fact we need educated people to know what Bitcoin is, otherwise if they want to save their money somewhere they will go for the classics (USD and metals).

deisik

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Quote from: bitboy11 on March 23, 2015, 07:23:35 AM

Their debt means nothing as there is no one in higher authority for them to answer to.

Who will force them to repay their debts?
Who will place sanctions on the USA?
The answer is Nobody.

If any country dares to challenge their currency or authority, that country will quickly be undermined or their government destroyed and replaced by US puppets.

China is the largest holder of the US national debt. You are still going to argue that this country will be quickly undermined and their government replaced by the US puppets in case the Chinese government decides to get rid of their US debt stock? Russia has recently been seen selling US treasuries, and so what?

For the US economy to collapse it would be enough that countries stopped buying the US debt

NeuroticFish

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Imho the number means (almost) nothing. Dollar (like most currencies) is only ... paper which the government tells you it has some value.
The actual value of this paper is adjusted according to the government needs, using inflation or deflation.

Sorry if my view is too simplistic...

bitboy11

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Their debt means nothing as there is no one in higher authority for them to answer to.

Who will force them to repay their debts?
Who will place sanctions on the USA?
The answer is Nobody.

If any country dares to challenge their currency or authority, that country will quickly be undermined or their government destroyed and replaced by US puppets.

aso118

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Quote from: alh on March 21, 2015, 03:11:33 AM

Could someone explain how this relates to Bitcoin? The overall Bitcoin economy and such doesn't register at all in this kind of discussion, does it?

The more governments screw up their monetary systems, the brighter Bitcoin's prospects become.

alh

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Could someone explain how this relates to Bitcoin? The overall Bitcoin economy and such doesn't register at all in this kind of discussion, does it?

aso118

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Quote from: OROBTC on March 19, 2015, 07:49:46 PM

...

And it ain't getting any better. Just today I read that Obama's new Budget forecasts a deficit (FY 2016?) of some $860 billion. Which of course is just another lie.

I expect politicians to be extra-eager to spend our money. I am dismayed that the people elect them to do so. Our people seem to be either greedy or uninformed (or both). *Sigh*

Our (USA anyway, probably Europe, Japan, etc.) is not only peeing away our valued savings (ZIRP & NIRP), but our liberties as well.

I wonder if I should start that "Plan B Countries" I have been thinking about........

Plan B Countries? This made me start thinking about which countries actually run a budget surplus.
Surprised to find that Germany is right up there.

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2015/02/24/germanys-budget-surplus-strengthens-hand-in-dealing-with-vulnerable-eurozone-economies/

OROBTC

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...

And it ain't getting any better. Just today I read that Obama's new Budget forecasts a deficit (FY 2016?) of some $860 billion. Which of course is just another lie.

I expect politicians to be extra-eager to spend our money. I am dismayed that the people elect them to do so. Our people seem to be either greedy or uninformed (or both). *Sigh*

Our (USA anyway, probably Europe, Japan, etc.) is not only peeing away our valued savings (ZIRP & NIRP), but our liberties as well.

I wonder if I should start that "Plan B Countries" I have been thinking about........

B.A.S.

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Quote from: Erdogan on March 15, 2015, 05:41:59 PM

The music stops when the lenders don't want to lend more (in case of the 200 trillion number which includes future liabilities, you also have to include: When people stop trusting that pensions and welfare will be paid).

Lots of people do not know that they have lent out assets to the government through their pension funds. They believe in the lies and the scams from the state. Lots of people will have to learn really quick when the reset comes. I wonder how it will play out.

I believe this could be one of the mechanisms for diverting a dying debt system. Many companies in the US no longer offer pensions. Most have done away with this system in preference of 401Ks or other limited investment vehicles. Even then, the 401Ks offered have a fraction of the returns they used to and allow no control over funds chosen by the individual employee.

I see the potential in the future for the USG to tax workers on all benefits given (including healthcare costs). Retirement/healthcare and the likes will all become the personal responsibility of the individual. The effect of this will be massive especially with the youth no longer saving for their future.

The USG can then used this increased tax pool to finance its existing obligations and transitory long enough for the die off of generations on the older (broken) system utilized today. Future generations will have no idea what Social Security or Medicare was.

Erdogan

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The music stops when the lenders don't want to lend more (in case of the 200 trillion number which includes future liabilities, you also have to include: When people stop trusting that pensions and welfare will be paid).

Lots of people do not know that they have lent out assets to the government through their pension funds. They believe in the lies and the scams from the state. Lots of people will have to learn really quick when the reset comes. I wonder how it will play out.

deisik

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Quote from: Q7 on March 15, 2015, 05:57:36 AM

It puzzles me a lot on how all these can actually sustain itself for so long without collapsing. I mean there must be an end to it. Trillion is indeed not a small number and imagine for the next few decades to come, it will just blow up to infinity. I'm just wondering if it really happens what are we gonna to do with all the heaps of notes lying around.

There would be no heaps of notes lying around. All these trillions are just numbers in a computer's storage media (just like bitcoins), which can be potentially erased as quickly as they have been created, that is with a single keypress (or two)...

Q7

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It puzzles me a lot on how all these can actually sustain itself for so long without collapsing. I mean there must be an end to it. Trillion is indeed not a small number and imagine for the next few decades to come, it will just blow up to infinity. I'm just wondering if it really happens what are we gonna to do with all the heaps of notes lying around.

aso118

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Quote from: smith coins on March 14, 2015, 10:52:12 PM

The history has proven, that governments cannot be trusted controlling the monetary system.

When people lose faith in the government's ability to control the value of the money in circulation, they buy gold. Historically, gold has been looked as a hedge against inflation. During times of turmoil, gold's price shoots up.
Now they have a digitized alternative - Bitcoin.

smith coins

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The history has proven, that governments cannot be trusted controlling the monetary system.

criptix

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Quote from: aso118 on March 14, 2015, 07:23:28 PM

Rather than looking at absolute numbers, it might be better to look at the ratio of debt/GDP. The worrying thing is, this has been going up as well over the years.

image

Quote

The fiscal gap is a comprehensive measure of a government's total indebtedness. Proposed by economists Laurence Kotlikoff and Alan Auerbach, it is defined as the difference between the present value of all of government's projected financial obligations, including future expenditures, including servicing outstanding official federal debt, and the present value of all projected future tax and other receipts, including income accruing from the government's current ownership of financial assets.[1] This method can be used to calculate the percentage of necessary tax increases or spending reductions needed to close the fiscal gap in the long-run.

i found an article from Laurence Kotlikoff

Quote

For the EU as a whole, the fiscal gap is 2.4 percent.
That’s sizeable, but it pales in comparison to the current U.S. fiscal gap of 10.5 percent.
It’s a strange world in which a totally bankrupt country — the U.S. — can borrow at extremely low cost while printing money at astronomical rates.
It’s a strange world in which policymakers can’t distinguish economic from linguistic measures of fiscal sustainability.
And it’s a strange world in which Italy, the developed world’s most fiscally responsible country, has to be lectured on fiscal prudence by countries in far worse fiscal shape.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sense/whats-the-most-fiscally-responsible-country-in-the-developed-world/

aso118

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Rather than looking at absolute numbers, it might be better to look at the ratio of debt/GDP. The worrying thing is, this has been going up as well over the years.

deisik

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Quote from: r0ach on March 14, 2015, 03:19:39 PM

Quote from: deisik on March 13, 2015, 04:24:22 PM

Financing wars, as well as conducting them, allows the US to maintain the US dollar universal hegemony and its status as a global reserve currency, which is the US primary weapon of mass destruction in financial wars that this country is permanently engaged in...

Which means two things since the US government is not only not attacking Bitcoin, but endorsing it in many instances. Either Satoshi = NSA, or they see collapse as imminent so there would be no point in attacking it and are letting people use it as a eugenics or wealth transfer mechanism to avoid a new dark ages.

I think you are overvaluing bitcoin and its significance as well as its danger to the powers that be. They are not attacking bitcoin since they don't see hazard to their position and influence from cryptocurrencies. Why crush a fly with a steam-roller?

r0ach

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Quote from: deisik on March 13, 2015, 04:24:22 PM

Financing wars, as well as conducting them, allows the US to maintain the US dollar universal hegemony and its status as a global reserve currency, which is the US primary weapon of mass destruction in financial wars that this country is permanently engaged in...

Which means two things since the US government is not only not attacking Bitcoin, but endorsing it in many instances. Either Satoshi = NSA, or they see collapse as imminent so there would be no point in attacking it and are letting people use it as a eugenics or wealth transfer mechanism to avoid a new dark ages.

deisik

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Quote from: manselr on March 14, 2015, 02:32:09 PM

Quote from: B.A.S. on March 13, 2015, 03:31:03 PM

Quote from: Bit_Happy on March 13, 2015, 01:29:46 PM

You read that right: $210 trillion.

A trillion here, a trillion there: pretty soon, we’re talking big money.

Professor Lawrence Kotlikoff of Boston University testified before the Senate Budget Committee. As usual, his testimony is shocking

The U.S. has a $210 trillion “fiscal gap” and “may well be in worse fiscal shape than any developed country, including Greece,” Boston University economist Laurence Kotlikoff told members of the Senate Budget Committee in written and oral testimony on Feb. 25.

“The first point I want to get across is that our nation is broke,” Kotlikoff testified. “Our nation’s broke, and it’s not broke in 75 years or 50 years or 25 years or 10 years. It’s broke today.
http://teapartyeconomist.com/2015/03/12/washingtons-210-trillion-deficit

I remember the official USA Federal Deficit being in the range of $14 Billion, $15 B, $18,000,000,000, but the numbers above are hard to comprehend. I hope the collapse can somehow be avoided for a long time.

IMO, it's just numbers on page somewhere. The US was broke and in deficit 20 years after it started thanks to Hamilton. The US should really stop financing wars. It's what made this mess anyway. Since we all know that won't happen, the best it can hope for is to continue control of the petrodollar dominating a large chunk of the World's commerce through their currency.

The question is, how much can they keep running the show? Because as long as people accept dollars, the dollar will keep going and going even tho if the fundamentals of the system are a total scam.

They will be running the show as long as there are states and nations which can be economically devastated by them. The US is a vulture that preys on wounded and weak animals. Recently, they tried to prey on Russia but got fought back strongly, and now they are trashing Europe for being the weakest link...

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