Topic: We are paying miners ~$10,000, undeservedly - page 2. (Read 2525 times)
And miners have no reason to stop while fees keep increasing, there will be no incentive for a compromise until bitcoin crashes and miners start losing money. It's unfortunate but its the reality we live in.
honestly, i feel it's out of control =/ Did Satoshi envision this?
Yes.
Quote from: Satoshi
Once a predetermined number of coins have entered
circulation, the incentive can transition entirely to transaction fees and be completely inflation
free.
circulation, the incentive can transition entirely to transaction fees and be completely inflation
free.
If the mining fees are too high then one can open a mine and take their business. Bitcoin rewards work. do something=get something. If the price really is too high then you will win the competition.
that is 24% of what they gain from block reward (12.5BTC=$2200)
The only reason why miners are not supporting segwit is that they don't like to loss this extra income. Rather than simply increasing blocksize I think community have to adapt more scalable solution like segwit and LN. Bitcoin price is already rising so I think current block reward can be enough for those miners to cover their operating cost + some profit, they are being quite greedy for some extra fees. 
you two are a bit off topic here because this topic is all about today, May of 2017 when block reward is 12.5BTC not some far away future when block reward is very small like 0 for example and miners need fees to compensate for their costs.
it doesn't matter the principle is the same, my point was that slowly the fee paid is replacing the total reward for miners, day by day while one is reducing the other is increasing
the problem is that the process is not happening "slowly"!
part of the reason for existence of the block reward + fees is to compensate for the job miners are doing. for them to pay the costs, like electricity bill, equipment, maintenance, labor, ... and they pay this in fiat (lets use USD for easy calculation) and right now they are getting paid ~$22000 + $5000 which is a lot more than they really deserve at this point.
in the past fee was a lot higher than this in BTC because price was low (for example fee was 0.01BTC at some point) then price went up and 0.01BTC became more expensive so the fee was reduced. and this has happened a couple of times.
but these days since blocks are full and fee is used as a way for competition nobody is talking about current fees needs adjusting because of price. and it can't until block size issue is resolved.
if you put it in this way you see that miners are still earning way less than before
before the halving they were earning 3600 coins per day which at current value would be far more than now, now they are earning a mere 1800 coins per day plus 300 btc from fee, a total of 2100 coins or so per day
this value is still no where near the old 3600 coins per day, if miners need to maintain the same profit in bitcoin(not in fiat), they are on a good boat now to do so
Flawed.Average $3.4242620196 per BTC when at 50 BTC per block. Each block worth on average $171.2131009818.
Average $341.4344216326 per BTC when at 25 BTC per block. Each block worth on average $8535.8605408144.
Current average $883.6603940743 per BTC now at 12.5 BTC per block. Each block worth on average $11045.7549259291.
Miners are earning more per block than before. You are utterly wrong.
Include the fees then per block is even higher than before.
Thus fees are not an important factor at this time, only in the future. Therefore there should be a min fee per input and output to make spamming expensive. The "fee market" is plainly flawed and economically stupid implementation.
No, Satoshi thought about increasing the block size few months after end of 2010, but now Core devs and Bitfury are blocking this.
Maybe that`s why Satohsi left the bitcoin community.
Stop making stupid things up just because you need to reach your post quota for your signature campaign or I will report you to your manager and tell him to check your post history.
$5000 every 10 minutes to store 1 MB data, meanwhile losing Bitcoin market share to altcoins and breaking Bitcoin for small transactions.
Miners get millions of dollars each day, for something that could basically be done by a 5 year old PC if not for the high hash rate.
Miners get millions of dollars each day, for something that could basically be done by a 5 year old PC if not for the high hash rate.
you two are a bit off topic here because this topic is all about today, May of 2017 when block reward is 12.5BTC not some far away future when block reward is very small like 0 for example and miners need fees to compensate for their costs.
it doesn't matter the principle is the same, my point was that slowly the fee paid is replacing the total reward for miners, day by day while one is reducing the other is increasing
the problem is that the process is not happening "slowly"!
part of the reason for existence of the block reward + fees is to compensate for the job miners are doing. for them to pay the costs, like electricity bill, equipment, maintenance, labor, ... and they pay this in fiat (lets use USD for easy calculation) and right now they are getting paid ~$22000 + $5000 which is a lot more than they really deserve at this point.
in the past fee was a lot higher than this in BTC because price was low (for example fee was 0.01BTC at some point) then price went up and 0.01BTC became more expensive so the fee was reduced. and this has happened a couple of times.
but these days since blocks are full and fee is used as a way for competition nobody is talking about current fees needs adjusting because of price. and it can't until block size issue is resolved.
if you put it in this way you see that miners are still earning way less than before
before the halving they were earning 3600 coins per day which at current value would be far more than now, now they are earning a mere 1800 coins per day plus 300 btc from fee, a total of 2100 coins or so per day
this value is still no where near the old 3600 coins per day, if miners need to maintain the same profit in bitcoin(not in fiat), they are on a good boat now to do so
i've just realized that the amount of total fee that we are paying miners because of the size of mempool these days has exceeded 2.5BTC and is nearing 3BTC.
that is about $5000 that miners are receiving undeservedly just because they are not adopting the scaling solution!
that is 24% of what they gain from block reward (12.5BTC=$2200)
that is about $5000 that miners are receiving undeservedly just because they are not adopting the scaling solution!
that is 24% of what they gain from block reward (12.5BTC=$2200)
People continue to put money into bitcoin even when miners are blocking the upgrade, transaction continue to pile up and fees are increase and people continue to pay for it.
Market is rewarding miners for blocking scaling, so I guess bitcoin is fine as it is.
If price and transactions start falling then, maybe, it's time for upgrade and miners will finally do it, but they have no good reason to do it when price is increasing.
We just hope they don't kill bitcoin before they start realizing that they have to act on it. Old and regular users are already frustrated with this and newbies are getting turned off waiting for confirmation.
Bitcoin will survive miners blocking upgrade, just some use cases are being killed right now, but after upgrade the possibilities are huge.
No, Satoshi thought about increasing the block size few months after end of 2010, but now Core devs and Bitfury are blocking this.
How to be an idiot 101: Paraphrase statements that were made prior to 7 years worth of research and experience. 
I am about to go and check blockchain to see which pools are mining their own transactions and which ones care for users to include their txs all the time and if I see BU pools are doing it then every body supporting them should be punished by the majority before it's too late.
No matter what some "BU pools" are doing, the people paid to support them will continue. You seem to be under a misconception that there are a lot* of *real* users in the pool of BU supporters.Old and regular users are already frustrated with this and newbies are getting turned off waiting for confirmation.
Wrong. Whilst it can be a *pain* for new and relatively uneducated users, it has no effect on my way of transacting. i've just realized that the amount of total fee that we are paying miners because of the size of mempool these days has exceeded 2.5BTC and is nearing 3BTC.
that is about $5000 that miners are receiving undeservedly just because they are not adopting the scaling solution!
that is 24% of what they gain from block reward (12.5BTC=$2200)
that is about $5000 that miners are receiving undeservedly just because they are not adopting the scaling solution!
that is 24% of what they gain from block reward (12.5BTC=$2200)
People continue to put money into bitcoin even when miners are blocking the upgrade, transaction continue to pile up and fees are increase and people continue to pay for it.
Market is rewarding miners for blocking scaling, so I guess bitcoin is fine as it is.
If price and transactions start falling then, maybe, it's time for upgrade and miners will finally do it, but they have no good reason to do it when price is increasing.
We just hope they don't kill bitcoin before they start realizing that they have to act on it. Old and regular users are already frustrated with this and newbies are getting turned off waiting for confirmation.
No, Satoshi thought about increasing the block size few months after end of 2010, but now Core devs and Bitfury are blocking this.
Satoshi made the block reward smaller every 4 years until 0, so the transaction fees are designed to be more and more of the total % of block reward.
Of course maybe not so quickly, but this is unavoidable over time
I just had a thought. If a group of miners, very late in the latter stages were rewards are negligible, realise that if they're the only ones accumulating coin from fees, and if they decide never to spend it, then the coins in circulation get fewer. So price can only be driven higher. Even more so if miners decide to simply ignore txs with fees they deem too low.
Miners have beem the only ones accumulating the coins to begin with.
As always fighting a war costs fortunes, you don't get to revolt against the largest organization of all times with paying pennies, I'm certain those in need of decentralized network such as Bitcoin will continue to pay whatever the fees are.
As a merchant transferring millions of dollars every day paying $100 to ensure a smooth and fast transactions is nothing compared to being subject to the international laws and regulations.
Many people will for sure enter mining in hopes of getting fast ROI but at the same time they will cause the difficulty to increase and price will go up even more, win-win.
I am about to go and check blockchain to see which pools are mining their own transactions and which ones care for users to include their txs all the time and if I see BU pools are doing it then every body supporting them should be punished by the majority before it's too late.
As a merchant transferring millions of dollars every day paying $100 to ensure a smooth and fast transactions is nothing compared to being subject to the international laws and regulations.
Many people will for sure enter mining in hopes of getting fast ROI but at the same time they will cause the difficulty to increase and price will go up even more, win-win.
I am about to go and check blockchain to see which pools are mining their own transactions and which ones care for users to include their txs all the time and if I see BU pools are doing it then every body supporting them should be punished by the majority before it's too late.
No, Satoshi thought about increasing the block size few months after end of 2010, but now Core devs and Bitfury are blocking this.
Satoshi made the block reward smaller every 4 years until 0, so the transaction fees are designed to be more and more of the total % of block reward.
Of course maybe not so quickly, but this is unavoidable over time
I just had a thought. If a group of miners, very late in the latter stages were rewards are negligible, realise that if they're the only ones accumulating coin from fees, and if they decide never to spend it, then the coins in circulation get fewer. So price can only be driven higher. Even more so if miners decide to simply ignore txs with fees they deem too low.
Miners have beem the only ones accumulating the coins to begin with.
There is no we "us" in crypto, just every man for himself or woman for herself, rules of the chaos raised from decentralization, do you see a miner forfeits a block in favor of another?
This reminds of the rules of the jungle, kill or be killed, pay the darn fee or bite on it until it gets confirmed.
I understand it now after visiting Ripple site that LN and SW are like what XRP is for Ripple they are for bitcoin.
I get angry some times when even with a high fee paid I need to wait for an hour.
As network grows the expenses increase but so as the price.
Disadvantage of being decentralized is the same situation we have as anyone with enough hash power can stalemate any progress.
This reminds of the rules of the jungle, kill or be killed, pay the darn fee or bite on it until it gets confirmed.
I understand it now after visiting Ripple site that LN and SW are like what XRP is for Ripple they are for bitcoin.
I get angry some times when even with a high fee paid I need to wait for an hour.
As network grows the expenses increase but so as the price.
Disadvantage of being decentralized is the same situation we have as anyone with enough hash power can stalemate any progress.
in my opinion if we start thinking like this we are killing bitcoin with our own hands.
it is exactly because of decentralization that there must be a "we" or "us" in it. there is no central authority to make our decisions for us, we either make it ourselves and move on or there is no point in using bitcoin, better go back to fiat and banks instead.
and there is a solution for everything. although i am against UASF but it is an option.
i also don't understand your statement about ripple! XRP is the short form for Ripple as BTC or XBT is for bitcoin!!
As someone who's only in this for the profit and pretty much not familiar with all the technical stuff, yes I find this troubling. And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that got into this for profits. Many people are starting to hear of this and are buying in in anticipation of a reward. Once they find that transaction fee is getting too crazy and that they've made enough profits already, they'll leave as quickly as they arrived.
There is no we "us" in crypto, just every man for himself or woman for herself, rules of the chaos raised from decentralization, do you see a miner forfeits a block in favor of another?
This reminds of the rules of the jungle, kill or be killed, pay the darn fee or bite on it until it gets confirmed.
I understand it now after visiting Ripple site that LN and SW are like what XRP is for Ripple they are for bitcoin.
I get angry some times when even with a high fee paid I need to wait for an hour.
As network grows the expenses increase but so as the price.
Disadvantage of being decentralized is the same situation we have as anyone with enough hash power can stalemate any progress.
This reminds of the rules of the jungle, kill or be killed, pay the darn fee or bite on it until it gets confirmed.
I understand it now after visiting Ripple site that LN and SW are like what XRP is for Ripple they are for bitcoin.
I get angry some times when even with a high fee paid I need to wait for an hour.
As network grows the expenses increase but so as the price.
Disadvantage of being decentralized is the same situation we have as anyone with enough hash power can stalemate any progress.
i've just realized that the amount of total fee that we are paying miners because of the size of mempool these days has exceeded 2.5BTC and is nearing 3BTC.
that is about $5000 that miners are receiving undeservedly just because they are not adopting the scaling solution!
that is 24% of what they gain from block reward (12.5BTC=$2200)
that is about $5000 that miners are receiving undeservedly just because they are not adopting the scaling solution!
that is 24% of what they gain from block reward (12.5BTC=$2200)
People continue to put money into bitcoin even when miners are blocking the upgrade, transaction continue to pile up and fees are increase and people continue to pay for it.
Market is rewarding miners for blocking scaling, so I guess bitcoin is fine as it is.
If price and transactions start falling then, maybe, it's time for upgrade and miners will finally do it, but they have no good reason to do it when price is increasing.
i've just realized that the amount of total fee that we are paying miners because of the size of mempool these days has exceeded 2.5BTC and is nearing 3BTC.
that is about $5000 that miners are receiving undeservedly just because they are not adopting the scaling solution!
that is 24% of what they gain from block reward (12.5BTC=$2200)
that is about $5000 that miners are receiving undeservedly just because they are not adopting the scaling solution!
that is 24% of what they gain from block reward (12.5BTC=$2200)
The reward incentive should be lower than this as the price appreciation offsets the transaction cost.
At this rate it would not surprise me to see Western Union memes in reverse with Bitcoin being more expensive to send $50 with due to a $5 transaction fee.
That was not the design and should also imply that miners should not be generating excess profits from fees otherwise we should just concede the field to altcoins. (Old meme Bitcoin should be $2 not a 0.01)
i've just realized that the amount of total fee that we are paying miners because of the size of mempool these days has exceeded 2.5BTC and is nearing 3BTC.
that is about $5000 that miners are receiving undeservedly just because they are not adopting the scaling solution!
that is 24% of what they gain from block reward (12.5BTC=$2200)
that is about $5000 that miners are receiving undeservedly just because they are not adopting the scaling solution!
that is 24% of what they gain from block reward (12.5BTC=$2200)
True, I agree with you.
I think that the miner fees are definitely skyrocketing right now and it's becoming unmanageable.
When it was 0.0001 BTC i was sending bitcoins without a worry - as bitcoin was actually only $200 as well back then, meaning that each transaction is virtually free and didn't need to worry about the size of the transaction too much - 0.0001 is like a uniform fee and many wallet providers paid the fee for you.
Then it rose up to 0.0005 ish when coinbase decided to charge customers the tx fees, I was like OK, just make sure you don't send more than 5 transactions a day or you'll going to lose out on money. That's around $0.6 at $1200.
Now the rate coinbase charges is a whooping 0.0012 BTC per transaction, with bitcoin price at over $1700.
That's over $2 guys.
No longer can we claim that bitcoin can transfer across the globe instantly with virtually no fees.... Sending $20 via paypal adding up all the fees and even currency exchange fees has become cheaper than sending it via BTC...
No, Satoshi thought about increasing the block size few months after end of 2010, but now Core devs and Bitfury are blocking this.
Satoshi made the block reward smaller every 4 years until 0, so the transaction fees are designed to be more and more of the total % of block reward.
Of course maybe not so quickly, but this is unavoidable over time
Come on. The recommended fee is 480 satoshi/byte. That's not normal.
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