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Topic: We Don't Want Democracy, We Want Consensus! - page 3. (Read 3222 times)

legendary
Activity: 1134
Merit: 1000
September 03, 2015, 12:43:59 AM
#39
P.S. I am putting together a Open Letter to the Devs from The Bitcoin Community outlining an endorsement of any decision arrived at using the decentralized Consensus Decision Making Model. If you think you can help us write this letter please send me a PM.

First of all congratulations for your initiative. But today i have read an open letter from the developers. So they had anticipated you. You can again write your letter and this will be a sign that the devs are going in the right direction. And secondly congratulations again for the position you take. It is true and I agree with you. Bitcoin need consensus to go ahead. the devs must discuss with each other and arrive one consensus. Democracy maybe can became after.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
September 03, 2015, 12:12:15 AM
#38

Democracy is dictatorship by the majority.


Bitcoin is a Democracy by definition. or maybe more of a "Democracy with exile"

what is bitcoin?
Nodes express their acceptance of a new block by mining on top of it and the longest chain composed of valid transactions is Bitcoin.

there you go the bitcoin = whatever the majority of hashing power believes is bitcoin.

 Cheesy

What a twisted idea.

So if "the majority of hashing power", say, 55%, starts mining Kanyecoin rather than Bitcoin than it becomes Bitcoin?

says satoshi

it really has to be a fork of bitcoin with the majority of hashing power

 Shocked

No.

Bitcoin is defined by the consensus rules defined in the software the nodes run. Not what some miners decides to mine...
what no

i'm telling you what the  "consensus rules" are,
Nodes express their acceptance of a new block by mining on top of it and the longest chain composed of valid transactions is Bitcoin.
this is from the white paper. and it wouldn't make any sense any other way.

That is a common misconception of what actually happens. Here:

Not really. "the longest chain" is ambiguous. It should really be "the longest valid chain", and then you need to define which coin's concept of "validity" you're using. Every client follows the longest valid chain - that's precisely how they decide which chain to follow.

...

Litecoin forked from Bitcoin. Its chain grows 4 times faster than Bitcoin's. There's a 0% chance that Bitcoin can catch up with the length of Litecoin's chain. Nobody cares. Core ignores the Litecoin chain in the same way that it will ignore the XTcoin chain once XT's chain becomes incompatible with Bitcoin's.

Your welcome.


so you agree with me.

 the longest chain composed of valid transactions is Bitcoin.

 Cool oh ya


Litecoin forked from Bitcoin. Its chain grows 4 times faster than Bitcoin's. There's a 0% chance that Bitcoin can catch up with the length of Litecoin's chain. Nobody cares. Core ignores the Litecoin chain in the same way that it will ignore the XTcoin chain once XT's chain becomes incompatible with Bitcoin's.


litecoin didn't fork from bitcoin
litecoin's CODE was a bitcoin fork
Big difference.
bitcoin XT attempted to fork from bitcoin.
to call it a fork it needs to include the blockchain up until the fork
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
September 03, 2015, 12:05:57 AM
#37

Democracy is dictatorship by the majority.


Bitcoin is a Democracy by definition. or maybe more of a "Democracy with exile"

what is bitcoin?
Nodes express their acceptance of a new block by mining on top of it and the longest chain composed of valid transactions is Bitcoin.

there you go the bitcoin = whatever the majority of hashing power believes is bitcoin.

 Cheesy

What a twisted idea.

So if "the majority of hashing power", say, 55%, starts mining Kanyecoin rather than Bitcoin than it becomes Bitcoin?

says satoshi

it really has to be a fork of bitcoin with the majority of hashing power

 Shocked

No.

Bitcoin is defined by the consensus rules defined in the software the nodes run. Not what some miners decides to mine...
what no

i'm telling you what the  "consensus rules" are,
Nodes express their acceptance of a new block by mining on top of it and the longest chain composed of valid transactions is Bitcoin.
this is from the white paper. and it wouldn't make any sense any other way.

That is a common misconception of what actually happens. Here:

Not really. "the longest chain" is ambiguous. It should really be "the longest valid chain", and then you need to define which coin's concept of "validity" you're using. Every client follows the longest valid chain - that's precisely how they decide which chain to follow.

...

Litecoin forked from Bitcoin. Its chain grows 4 times faster than Bitcoin's. There's a 0% chance that Bitcoin can catch up with the length of Litecoin's chain. Nobody cares. Core ignores the Litecoin chain in the same way that it will ignore the XTcoin chain once XT's chain becomes incompatible with Bitcoin's.

Your welcome.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
September 02, 2015, 11:58:09 PM
#36

Democracy is dictatorship by the majority.


Bitcoin is a Democracy by definition. or maybe more of a "Democracy with exile"

what is bitcoin?
Nodes express their acceptance of a new block by mining on top of it and the longest chain composed of valid transactions is Bitcoin.

there you go the bitcoin = whatever the majority of hashing power believes is bitcoin.

 Cheesy

What a twisted idea.

So if "the majority of hashing power", say, 55%, starts mining Kanyecoin rather than Bitcoin than it becomes Bitcoin?

says satoshi

it really has to be a fork of bitcoin with the majority of hashing power

 Shocked

No.

Bitcoin is defined by the consensus rules defined in the software the nodes run. Not what some miners decides to mine...
what no

i'm telling you what the  "consensus rules" are,
Nodes express their acceptance of a new block by mining on top of it and the longest chain composed of valid transactions is Bitcoin.
this is from the white paper. and it wouldn't make any sense any other way.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
September 02, 2015, 11:54:58 PM
#35

Democracy is dictatorship by the majority.


Bitcoin is a Democracy by definition. or maybe more of a "Democracy with exile"

what is bitcoin?
Nodes express their acceptance of a new block by mining on top of it and the longest chain composed of valid transactions is Bitcoin.

there you go the bitcoin = whatever the majority of hashing power believes is bitcoin.

 Cheesy

What a twisted idea.

So if "the majority of hashing power", say, 55%, starts mining Kanyecoin rather than Bitcoin than it becomes Bitcoin?

says satoshi

it really has to be a fork of bitcoin with the majority of hashing power

 Shocked

No.

Bitcoin is defined by the consensus rules defined in the software the nodes run. Not what some miners decides to mine...
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
September 02, 2015, 11:50:33 PM
#34

Democracy is dictatorship by the majority.


Bitcoin is a Democracy by definition. or maybe more of a "Democracy with exile"

what is bitcoin?
Nodes express their acceptance of a new block by mining on top of it and the longest chain composed of valid transactions is Bitcoin.

there you go the bitcoin = whatever the majority of hashing power believes is bitcoin.

 Cheesy

What a twisted idea.

So if "the majority of hashing power", say, 55%, starts mining Kanyecoin rather than Bitcoin than it becomes Bitcoin?

says satoshi

it really has to be a fork of bitcoin with the majority of hashing power, but you get the idea.

legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
September 02, 2015, 11:50:09 PM
#33
i think the point would not be to necessary achieve 100% consensus but to strive for it. with a simple majority wins system you don't get both side to try comparmize or try to think of alt solutions which satisfy everyone. so it might not be possible to really achieve consensus but its important to TRY to reach a consensus.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
September 02, 2015, 11:49:28 PM
#32

Democracy is dictatorship by the majority.


Bitcoin is a Democracy by definition. or maybe more of a "Democracy with exile"

what is bitcoin?
Nodes express their acceptance of a new block by mining on top of it and the longest chain composed of valid transactions is Bitcoin.

there you go the bitcoin = whatever the majority of hashing power believes is bitcoin.

 Cheesy

What a twisted idea.

So if "the majority of hashing power", say, 55%, starts mining Kanyecoin rather than Bitcoin than it becomes Bitcoin?
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
September 02, 2015, 11:47:17 PM
#31
Good points. You can never totally get rid of bad actors that intentionally disturb the decisoin making process
- snip -

I'm not talking about "bad actors".  The fact that someone has a different goal than you doesn't necessarily mean that your goal is "good" and theirs is "bad".

The point is that a "Consensus Building Process" can't work if participants goals don't align, especially if the participants are passionate about their goals.


If consensus isn't working toward realizing their goal maybe they need to double-check their priorities and either a. compromise or b. exit and create a group of like-minded people.

Free market still operates in consensus-style decision making and if someone is convinced that their goals is more valuable then others they should absolutely leave it to the market to decide. One should be careful though about the means by which they introduce their different proposal as it could cost them greatly if people start discerning hidden motives and intentions not properly disclaimed.

Consensus sounds like a great idea, but may not always work. Democracy may not work either. A dictatorship, benevolent or malevolent, can make things happen very quickly and win a game in the right circumstances. One of those circumstances might be if a democracy or consensus is stuck in minutia, missing a bigger picture, while a dictatorship conceives and idea and quickly executes it overtaking both consensus and democracy.

I hope that Bitcoin can find consensus, but will settle for democracy. I do not want dictatorship. Certainly more than one dictatorship with concepts already.

Democracy is dictatorship by the majority.

The rest of your concerns are absolutely valid and amount to what Hayek referred to as the "Road to Serfdom"

You may be right. This is the first I've seen the idea of consensus on a political/government scale, and need to consider it more, especially in light of the power of technology. However, my first gut reaction is that consensus is not possible. I see two immediate concerns:

1) No two people think 100% alike, and the minority in a consensus must concede to the majority anyhow. I think maybe a democracy is more honest in that an actual vote takes place. Vote can be traded, based on importance. Hence, politics come in to play. (Yuck, but reality).

2) If one person refuses to a consensus, either the rest of the consensus moves on without them (in which we are back to a dictatorship  by democracy), or consensus never occurs and a decision is not made. This can work for a while, but evolution does not stop.

Ultimately, the beauty of Bitcoin is the open source nature and the ability for anyone to use it how they please. What I have realized is that the ability to freely pick and choose your money is more important than ever. Any impediment to currency exchange and transmission, no matter what form it takes, is an assault on human rights and dignity.

You are ignoring one aspect which is vital to consensus: reputation. The major difference between democracy and consensus is that not all votes are equal. Some vetos weight more than others.

An outlier willing to use his veto to stop progress needs to consider the strenght of his reputation and the validity of his arguments. If both are poor you are correct that consensus might move against him and that is perfectly normal. If that person is being intellectually honest she might realize the need to compromise on what might not have been the best idea in the first place or effectively exile himself from the decision process.

Now of course reputations are built and destroyed all the time. In that sense consensus has a very meritocratic aspect to it.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
September 02, 2015, 11:38:39 PM
#30

Democracy is dictatorship by the majority.


Bitcoin is a Democracy by definition. or maybe more of a "Democracy with exile"

what is bitcoin?
Nodes express their acceptance of a new block by mining on top of it and the longest chain composed of valid transactions is Bitcoin.

there you go the bitcoin = whatever the majority of hashing power believes is bitcoin.
sr. member
Activity: 274
Merit: 250
September 02, 2015, 11:33:58 PM
#29
Good points. You can never totally get rid of bad actors that intentionally disturb the decisoin making process
- snip -

I'm not talking about "bad actors".  The fact that someone has a different goal than you doesn't necessarily mean that your goal is "good" and theirs is "bad".

The point is that a "Consensus Building Process" can't work if participants goals don't align, especially if the participants are passionate about their goals.


If consensus isn't working toward realizing their goal maybe they need to double-check their priorities and either a. compromise or b. exit and create a group of like-minded people.

Free market still operates in consensus-style decision making and if someone is convinced that their goals is more valuable then others they should absolutely leave it to the market to decide. One should be careful though about the means by which they introduce their different proposal as it could cost them greatly if people start discerning hidden motives and intentions not properly disclaimed.

Consensus sounds like a great idea, but may not always work. Democracy may not work either. A dictatorship, benevolent or malevolent, can make things happen very quickly and win a game in the right circumstances. One of those circumstances might be if a democracy or consensus is stuck in minutia, missing a bigger picture, while a dictatorship conceives and idea and quickly executes it overtaking both consensus and democracy.

I hope that Bitcoin can find consensus, but will settle for democracy. I do not want dictatorship. Certainly more than one dictatorship with concepts already.

Democracy is dictatorship by the majority.

The rest of your concerns are absolutely valid and amount to what Hayek referred to as the "Road to Serfdom"

You may be right. This is the first I've seen the idea of consensus on a political/government scale, and need to consider it more, especially in light of the power of technology. However, my first gut reaction is that consensus is not possible. I see two immediate concerns:

1) No two people think 100% alike, and the minority in a consensus must concede to the majority anyhow. I think maybe a democracy is more honest in that an actual vote takes place. Vote can be traded, based on importance. Hence, politics come in to play. (Yuck, but reality).

2) If one person refuses to a consensus, either the rest of the consensus moves on without them (in which we are back to a dictatorship  by democracy), or consensus never occurs and a decision is not made. This can work for a while, but evolution does not stop.



Ultimately, the beauty of Bitcoin is the open source nature and the ability for anyone to use it how they please. What I have realized is that the ability to freely pick and choose your money is more important than ever. Any impediment to currency exchange and transmission, no matter what form it takes, is an assault on human rights and dignity.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
September 02, 2015, 11:14:15 PM
#28
Good points. You can never totally get rid of bad actors that intentionally disturb the decisoin making process
- snip -

I'm not talking about "bad actors".  The fact that someone has a different goal than you doesn't necessarily mean that your goal is "good" and theirs is "bad".

The point is that a "Consensus Building Process" can't work if participants goals don't align, especially if the participants are passionate about their goals.


If consensus isn't working toward realizing their goal maybe they need to double-check their priorities and either a. compromise or b. exit and create a group of like-minded people.

Free market still operates in consensus-style decision making and if someone is convinced that their goals is more valuable then others they should absolutely leave it to the market to decide. One should be careful though about the means by which they introduce their different proposal as it could cost them greatly if people start discerning hidden motives and intentions not properly disclaimed.

Consensus sounds like a great idea, but may not always work. Democracy may not work either. A dictatorship, benevolent or malevolent, can make things happen very quickly and win a game in the right circumstances. One of those circumstances might be if a democracy or consensus is stuck in minutia, missing a bigger picture, while a dictatorship conceives and idea and quickly executes it overtaking both consensus and democracy.

I hope that Bitcoin can find consensus, but will settle for democracy. I do not want dictatorship. Certainly more than one dictatorship with concepts already.

Democracy is dictatorship by the majority.

The rest of your concerns are absolutely valid and amount to what Hayek referred to as the "Road to Serfdom"
sr. member
Activity: 274
Merit: 250
September 02, 2015, 11:13:49 PM
#27
Keep calm ... and wait FIAT collapse.  Roll Eyes

Agreed, but infinity is a very large number. FIAT really can go on a very long time.
sr. member
Activity: 274
Merit: 250
September 02, 2015, 11:11:30 PM
#26
Good points. You can never totally get rid of bad actors that intentionally disturb the decisoin making process
- snip -

I'm not talking about "bad actors".  The fact that someone has a different goal than you doesn't necessarily mean that your goal is "good" and theirs is "bad".

The point is that a "Consensus Building Process" can't work if participants goals don't align, especially if the participants are passionate about their goals.


If consensus isn't working toward realizing their goal maybe they need to double-check their priorities and either a. compromise or b. exit and create a group of like-minded people.

Free market still operates in consensus-style decision making and if someone is convinced that their goals is more valuable then others they should absolutely leave it to the market to decide. One should be careful though about the means by which they introduce their different proposal as it could cost them greatly if people start discerning hidden motives and intentions not properly disclaimed.

Consensus sounds like a great idea, but may not always work. Democracy may not work either. A dictatorship, benevolent or malevolent, can make things happen very quickly and win a game in the right circumstances. One of those circumstances might be if a democracy or consensus is stuck in minutia, missing a bigger picture, while a dictatorship conceives and idea and quickly executes it overtaking both consensus and democracy.

I hope that Bitcoin can find consensus, but will settle for democracy. I do not want dictatorship. Certainly more than one dictatorship with concepts already.
hero member
Activity: 616
Merit: 500
September 02, 2015, 11:10:52 PM
#25
The Social consensus, which we need 'discussion among developers to indicate that most people agree with a particular plan'.
sr. member
Activity: 274
Merit: 250
September 02, 2015, 11:08:22 PM
#24
So when you know that your opinion is against the major consensus, it is time to rethink why there are so many people supporting the major consensus and adjust your position accordingly.

This sort of sounds like the politics of a democracy. If you are in the minority, you may want to rethink your desires and adjust you plan accordingly.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
September 02, 2015, 11:01:11 PM
#23
Good points. You can never totally get rid of bad actors that intentionally disturb the decisoin making process
- snip -

I'm not talking about "bad actors".  The fact that someone has a different goal than you doesn't necessarily mean that your goal is "good" and theirs is "bad".

The point is that a "Consensus Building Process" can't work if participants goals don't align, especially if the participants are passionate about their goals.


If consensus isn't working toward realizing their goal maybe they need to double-check their priorities and either a. compromise or b. exit and create a group of like-minded people.

Free market still operates in consensus-style decision making and if someone is convinced that their goals is more valuable then others they should absolutely leave it to the market to decide. One should be careful though about the means by which they introduce their different proposal as it could cost them greatly if people start discerning hidden motives and intentions not properly disclaimed.
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 4801
September 02, 2015, 10:54:49 PM
#22
Good points. You can never totally get rid of bad actors that intentionally disturb the decisoin making process
- snip -

I'm not talking about "bad actors".  The fact that someone has a different goal than you doesn't necessarily mean that your goal is "good" and theirs is "bad".

The point is that a "Consensus Building Process" can't work if participants goals don't align, especially if the participants are passionate about their goals.

Sure you can reduce the influence that you allow to those that disagree with the majority, but that isn't "consensus", that's "majority wins" democracy. It's just another form of "exile".  Instead of immediately rejecting their input, you slowly remove their input until their input becomes meaningless.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
September 02, 2015, 10:37:23 PM
#21
Consensus is great if all the participants have the same general goal.

It is impossible if the participants have significantly different and incompatible goals.

In that situation, the best you're going to get with your proposal is either:

Democracy with exile:  Anyone that refuses to accept a compromise that the majority of participants find reasonable is simply accused of making "it clear that he does not believe in the Consensus Building Process and is doing nothing to help in it's success" and is therefore exiled from participating in the process at all.  The process repeats until all those that disagree with the majority have been exiled.  The remaining (non-exiled) participants therefore have 100% consensus.

Stagnation: Those with different goals than the majority can simply refuse to accept any "compromise".  They can furthermore continuously propose "compromises" that are unacceptable to the majority of the participants. The decision making process gets help up indefinitely, and changes that most sensible people feel are important and urgent don't get implemented.

Good points. You can never totally get rid of bad actors that intentionally disturb the decisoin making process

There could be ways to reward the consensus building and punish the opposite. For example, the community first makes several consensus candidates, then holds 3 rounds of opinion poll. Everyone's opinion has a weight factor, if one's opinion is not the major consensus, next time his opinion will have a much less weight, like 50%, if he's opinion is with the majority, he will regain his 100% weight. By this means, those who constantly going against the majority will have less and less influence on the final decision

So when you know that your opinion is against the major consensus, it is time to rethink why there are so many people supporting the major consensus and adjust your position accordingly. The basic principle is that consensus have the highest priority, the participants gains most when they join the major consensus
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
September 02, 2015, 07:58:36 PM
#20
One of the core principles behind bitcoin is that nodes express their acceptance of a new block by mining on top of it and the longest chain composed of valid transactions is Bitcoin. By making it easier for everyone to express their acceptance of a potential change, we are making it easier for the network to come to consensus and roll out changes according to the original design of Bitcoin, while limiting potential forks created when changes are implemented without knowing whether or not the changes will be accepted by the network.

imagine the mess we would be in if XT gained 35% of hash rate power.... that shit NEEDS to be avoided at all cost.
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