We should not try to get legality for Bitcoin...

stochastic

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Quote from: greyhawk on September 20, 2012, 07:59:01 AM

Quote from: cbeast on September 20, 2012, 07:54:53 AM

Quote from: greyhawk on September 20, 2012, 07:51:16 AM

Private Military Company

Call it the NSS (Not Sure if Serious)

I was thinking more along the lines of BitForce Gamma (BFG)

Quote from: phantastisch on September 20, 2012, 07:56:31 AM

Quote from: greyhawk on September 20, 2012, 07:51:16 AM

Private Military Company

Operating globally ? Do you need a Partner ?

We will certainly entertain applications from all nations, races or religions (except vegetarians).

How about Grey Water?

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A still more attractive and more likely solution is advance contracting between the agencies. Under this scenario, any two agencies that faced a significant probability of such clashes would agree on an arbitration agency to settle them-a private court. Implicit or explicit in their agreement would be the legal rules under which such disputes were to be settled.

Seriously though, I think what is needed is along your lines, but for most members of the community to form trade/consumer/advocacy organizations that form contracts with each other to insure their members in case their members do something "illegal" under the contract that they agreed to. The groups would also tell its members who to and not to do business with. If someone opened an investment company but would not join one of the trade groups, then the investor consumer group would tell its members not to do business with that person as if they are defrauded there would be no repercussions if they are the victims of fraud.

marcus_of_augustus

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Eadem mutata resurgo

Quote from: tvbcof on September 24, 2012, 10:59:37 AM

Quote from: mobile4ever on September 22, 2012, 06:03:10 PM

Quote from: tvbcof on September 22, 2012, 10:19:08 AM

Alas, things are not always so black and white. Obviously as a relatively responsible individual I prefer the former for myself and almost all of the people I know. But I actually don't really mind a democratically elected government 'thinking and being responsible for the actions' of violent criminals, Wall Street crooks, the Butterfly Labs CEO, and so on.

It can be black and white. It depends on the personality and training.

I've no doubt that brain structure plays a big role in one's propensity to view things as 'black/white' or 'infinite shades.' I've observed it first hand in my own family even, and it is deeper than simple native intelligence.

But 'black/white' is a much more simple strategy and handy if one wishes to (or needs to by necessity of lower cognitive ability) avoid considering the nearly infinite tangential factors which shape most aspects of our world. Thus, it is a well represented mode of thought at such 'training' institutions as your average seminary, madrassa, Misses Institute, etc.

back-handed passive agressive ... why don't you show some spine and just come out and say you have hang-ups with Austrian economics?

Black/white boundaries are what is needed in the engineering world to make all your shiny toys work ... shades of grey are pretty to think about but do not put food on the table, or gas in your tank, if you know what I mean.

Relativism is a lovely fantasy world ... until you get poor.

tvbcof

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Quote from: mobile4ever on September 22, 2012, 06:03:10 PM

Quote from: tvbcof on September 22, 2012, 10:19:08 AM

Alas, things are not always so black and white. Obviously as a relatively responsible individual I prefer the former for myself and almost all of the people I know. But I actually don't really mind a democratically elected government 'thinking and being responsible for the actions' of violent criminals, Wall Street crooks, the Butterfly Labs CEO, and so on.

It can be black and white. It depends on the personality and training.

I've no doubt that brain structure plays a big role in one's propensity to view things as 'black/white' or 'infinite shades.' I've observed it first hand in my own family even, and it is deeper than simple native intelligence.

But 'black/white' is a much more simple strategy and handy if one wishes to (or needs to by necessity of lower cognitive ability) avoid considering the nearly infinite tangential factors which shape most aspects of our world. Thus, it is a well represented mode of thought at such 'training' institutions as your average seminary, madrassa, Misses Institute, etc.

mobile4ever

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Quote from: tvbcof on September 22, 2012, 10:19:08 AM

Alas, things are not always so black and white. Obviously as a relatively responsible individual I prefer the former for myself and almost all of the people I know. But I actually don't really mind a democratically elected government 'thinking and being responsible for the actions' of violent criminals, Wall Street crooks, the Butterfly Labs CEO, and so on.

It can be black and white. It depends on the personality and training.

Quote

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. ~ Winston Churchill

tvbcof

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Quote from: mobile4ever on September 22, 2012, 07:38:18 AM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on September 20, 2012, 07:36:40 AM

Do what free men have always done. Fight for what is right. There are two forms of government:

You can think and be responsible for your own actions.
You can allow others to to think and be responsible for your actions.

Which do you choose?

Alas, things are not always so black and white. Obviously as a relatively responsible individual I prefer the former for myself and almost all of the people I know. But I actually don't really mind a democratically elected government 'thinking and being responsible for the actions' of violent criminals, Wall Street crooks, the Butterfly Labs CEO, and so on.

mobile4ever

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Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on September 20, 2012, 07:36:40 AM

Citation from the last conference material (http://shadowlife.cc/files/btcotc.pdf (slide #18)):

Quote

We should not try to get legality for Bitcoin, we should not ask the state to resolve conflicts in the community.

What should we do then?

Do what free men have always done. Fight for what is right. There are two forms of government:

You can think and be responsible for your own actions.
You can allow others to to think and be responsible for your actions.

Which do you choose?

marcus_of_augustus

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Eadem mutata resurgo

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on September 21, 2012, 07:42:31 AM

Quote from: marcus_of_augustus on September 21, 2012, 06:33:05 AM

What are you arguing here? Bitcoin is malware?

Edit : want to link to a github repo of "trojans and viruses"? It is completely voluntary you want to run it on your computer or not.

Edit : bitcoin addresses and keys pretty much are random numbers ... that's math.

U look at bitcoin as chunks of raw data. But it's information (interpreted data = information). If the state decides that Bitcoin is illegal u can't say it's "destroying the common law framework". If it was so then prohibiting to store child porno would be considered as "destroying the common law framework" as well.

It is.

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: marcus_of_augustus on September 21, 2012, 06:33:05 AM

What are you arguing here? Bitcoin is malware?

Edit : want to link to a github repo of "trojans and viruses"? It is completely voluntary you want to run it on your computer or not.

Edit : bitcoin addresses and keys pretty much are random numbers ... that's math.

U look at bitcoin as chunks of raw data. But it's information (interpreted data = information). If the state decides that Bitcoin is illegal u can't say it's "destroying the common law framework". If it was so then prohibiting to store child porno would be considered as "destroying the common law framework" as well.

marcus_of_augustus

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Eadem mutata resurgo

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on September 21, 2012, 05:49:14 AM

Quote from: marcus_of_augustus on September 21, 2012, 04:35:39 AM

Anybody want to point to a particular statute, in any Western country, that demonstrates open source software that can transfer and store random numbers securely is illegal?

Bitcoin is NOT illegal ... and I'll be very surprised if any legislature anywhere can come up with a statute that can make bitcoin illegal without destroying the common law framework civilised, liberal, property-right respecting societies are founded upon.

A lot of trojans and viruses considered to be open-source software (u can get sources) and look like random numbers (polymorphism trick). But u'll be punished if u try to send them to someone else.

U can't pretend that bitcoins r just random numbers. It's like pretending that dollar banknotes r just sheets of paper.

What are you arguing here? Bitcoin is malware?

Edit : want to link to a github repo of "trojans and viruses"? It is completely voluntary you want to run it on your computer or not.

Edit : bitcoin addresses and keys pretty much are random numbers ... that's math.

greyhawk

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Quote from: Gabi on September 21, 2012, 05:52:06 AM

Quote

It's like pretending that dollar banknotes r just sheets of paper.

But they are just sheets of paper, wait for hyperinflation to happens and they will be good for heating Cheesy

Actually it's a sheet of cotton weave. At least in Europe.

Gabi

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If you want to walk on water, get out of the boat

Quote

It's like pretending that dollar banknotes r just sheets of paper.

But they are just sheets of paper, wait for hyperinflation to happens and they will be good for heating Cheesy

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: marcus_of_augustus on September 21, 2012, 04:35:39 AM

Anybody want to point to a particular statute, in any Western country, that demonstrates open source software that can transfer and store random numbers securely is illegal?

Bitcoin is NOT illegal ... and I'll be very surprised if any legislature anywhere can come up with a statute that can make bitcoin illegal without destroying the common law framework civilised, liberal, property-right respecting societies are founded upon.

A lot of trojans and viruses considered to be open-source software (u can get sources) and look like random numbers (polymorphism trick). But u'll be punished if u try to send them to someone else.

U can't pretend that bitcoins r just random numbers. It's like pretending that dollar banknotes r just sheets of paper.

Gabi

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If you want to walk on water, get out of the boat

Quote

the common law framework civilised, liberal, property-right respecting societies are founded upon.

Lol

marcus_of_augustus

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Eadem mutata resurgo

Anybody want to point to a particular statute, in any Western country, that demonstrates open source software that can transfer and store random numbers securely is illegal?

Bitcoin is NOT illegal ... and I'll be very surprised if any legislature anywhere can come up with a statute that can make bitcoin illegal without destroying the common law framework civilised, liberal, property-right respecting societies are founded upon.

jimbobway

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Quote from: greyhawk on September 20, 2012, 07:51:16 AM

Private Military Company

tvbcof

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Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on September 20, 2012, 07:36:40 AM

Citation from the last conference material (http://shadowlife.cc/files/btcotc.pdf (slide #18)):

Quote

We should not try to get legality for Bitcoin, we should not ask the state to resolve conflicts in the community.

What should we do then?

Distributed peer reviewed arbitration with evidence material made public and arbitrators anonymity jealously guarded. All participants in the community are potential arbitrators in the same manner as jurors (in the US) and a ratings system similar to e-bay's allows perspective counter-parties the ability to assess the counter's history, ratings, judgments, etc to choose whether to undertake a transaction or not.

Although I believe it to be completely my own I claim no rights to the idea. But it's near the top of my list for ideas to develop if/when I feel in the mood.

justusranvier

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Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on September 20, 2012, 07:36:40 AM

What should we do then?

Develop as many trust-free services as possible so that disputes don't arise in the first place.

Come-from-Beyond

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Newbie

I expected to get an almost complete plan. But I see only vague speculations. Sad

kangasbros

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Quote from: ?? on ??

The speaker's point was that the state, once it becomes aware of Bitcoin, will tend to resolve conflicts in its own interest rather than in the community's interest.

This is BTW very common misconception in the libertarian discussions I have spotted: that state has its "own interests". State consists of many different organizations and parts, which also consists of humans, which have their own interests. State is not a single-interest/single-mission organization.

I will prove this by getting state funding for my bitcoin startup Cheesy

casascius

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The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on September 20, 2012, 07:36:40 AM

Citation from the last conference material (http://shadowlife.cc/files/btcotc.pdf (slide #18)):

Quote

We should not try to get legality for Bitcoin, we should not ask the state to resolve conflicts in the community.

What should we do then?

If you disagree, consider ignoring it. When someone comes along and invents decentralized justice, we can be early adopters. I believe that enforcement of property rights is a legitimate function of government. If you want a quick example of an environment do-it-yourself justice is the rule, head to your nearest blighted gang-infested neighborhood - one where the police don't go unless they absolutely have to.

I think there will be some judges who, once they understand Bitcoin, think it is a great idea in the best interest of civilization, and might not punish litigants for using it as though its use is a prima facie attempt to launder money or establish some sort of anarchy. I don't believe in their mind that they all desire the expansion of government and its tyrannical control of the citizens nor do they use their discretion in conscious support of it. They are just another kind of person doing their job.

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