Whales = high fees | Bitcointalksearch.org

figmentofmyass

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Quote from: mich on May 15, 2019, 11:05:17 PM

This is the first thing to that came to my mind today when I wanted to send my friend some BTC today instead of fiat. The bull market mean higher fees and I am not as ready to pay $1.50 to send when there are other ways to send for cheap.

these spikes in fees tend to come in waves. we had a similar spike last week where people were paying 2000 sat/byte. yet just 3 days ago, transactions that paid only 1 satoshi/byte were being confirmed.

it may look impossible now, but if you're willing to wait, sending low fee transactions at 1-3 sat/byte will probably be confirmed in the next few days. it just requires some patience and you may need to re-broadcast the transaction a couple times.

mich

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If I am sending like 100 BITCOIN then no i would not mind paying $1.50-2.00 for the fees
But if i am paying my friend $20 and $1.50 for the fee it is not worth it for me.

thirdprize

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Everytime you think BTC might gain some traction, the fees go up. At those times it is only good for the rich to move their money around. That is what BTC has come to. Wink

aly

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It doesn't make sense to connect all Bitcoin transaction fees to whales. Transaction fees are increasing for different reasons and will continue to increase.

While the transaction fee is against the nature of Bitcoin, the point we came today is also thought provoking.

MonsterV

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Quote from: thirdprize on May 15, 2019, 04:30:49 AM

If you are moving 100s of BTC around then you don't mind paying $2 transaction fee to get it done quick. You can afford it. It hurts the rest of us though as we can't. Btc will always be at the mercy of the whales.

Only a few whales make transactions compared to small users, whales trade more often than transactions outside of trade. So no need to worry about high BTC transaction fees, because it does not have a large impact on fees

redsun114

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Quote from: Viscore on May 15, 2019, 07:36:04 AM

Then you have to make sure the amount you send is enough for you to accept the pay.
Used wallet such as segwit wallet, actually I'm using this one and it's very cheap especially if you are sending from segwit to segwit address.

Fee's are really high and I understands the sentiment of a typical people who transact small and want to enjoy small fee but that's how it is now, unless all people are willing to shift to segwit.

There even are free transaction fees for some supported exchanges and wallets. Segwit wallets really have lower transaction fees and also are confirmed quicker I guess but it is not the situation with other wallets I guess. Peoples who have not yet enrolled themselves with higher amounts and are transacting with lower amounts are surely going to face difficulties in the network confirmation fees but it is something which cannot be excluded.

The transaction fees needs to be paid and the profits we have in any field should be excluded from these transaction fees. Peoples might really be in a need of a free transferable coin which would not charge anything to transfer the funds.

Wayan_Pedjeng

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Quote from: Carry_Me_Hoome on May 15, 2019, 03:23:35 PM

The mining pools are pretty much the biggest controller of the fees and they don't want them to get TOOOO high or it would be bad for them too. IMO

There is no cartel system among the mining pools. Although 82% or more of the hashpower is located in China, the biggest pools such as BTC.com, AntPool, ViaBTC and SlushPool are not in talking terms with each other. And this hinders their ability to take joint actions which can result in fee manipulation. So I would say that right now there is no proof to say that the mining pools are controlling the fee. IMO, it is being solely decided by the volume of the Bitcoin transactions and the volatility in the market.

guoyu78

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Quote from: thirdprize on May 15, 2019, 04:30:49 AM

If you are moving 100s of BTC around then you don't mind paying $2 transaction fee to get it done quick. You can afford it. It hurts the rest of us though as we can't. Btc will always be at the mercy of the whales.

Well, the fees may vary on various wallets for transferring smaller or bigger amounts. Certainly, higher fees will be changed for higher amounts and vice-versa smaller amounts for small amounts. There are some exchanges/wallets having fixed fees but some wallets charge fees as per the percentage of the total value.

Big whales would rarely care about the fees as they are busy transferring hundreds of bitcoins and they would surely not think about some satoshi's. If the difficulty for the miners rises up then the network confirmation fees can also be hiked up. Actually, in the last year's bull markets, the transaction fees were really sky reaching and so might be perhaps expected in these bull runs.

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Quote from: thirdprize on May 15, 2019, 04:30:49 AM

If you are moving 100s of BTC around then you don't mind paying $2 transaction fee to get it done quick. You can afford it. It hurts the rest of us though as we can't. Btc will always be at the mercy of the whales.

I have to agree with you in a way. I spoke to a friend of mine a while ago and he is living in a 3rd world country with a weak currency, compared to currencies in the 1st world.

He made a SegWit to SegWit transaction and he paid $2+ in miners fees to transfer 0.01 BTC from one address to another. Their currency to the Dollar was 14:1, so he paid 28 Lilangeni to transfer effectively $80 worth of bitcoin.

In his country, he can buy a meal for 3 people with 28 Llangeni, so it is more expensive for people with weaker currencies to use Bitcoin. Roll Eyes

mich

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This is the first thing to that came to my mind today when I wanted to send my friend some BTC today instead of fiat. The bull market mean higher fees and I am not as ready to pay $1.50 to send when there are other ways to send for cheap.

bL4nkcode

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 15, 2019, 05:05:50 AM

Every time there's a spike in the price, the fees go high. I've seen this behavior for months. As soon as the price "levels", the network gets free again.

Every time price increase, users become more active trading, transferring funds from their wallets to some exchanges, buying from exchange then send to their wallets, that's why the network gets congested, due to network condition, miners demands a higher fee to include those transactions in the next blocks. So yeah, blame all humpback whales Roll Eyes

pooya87

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Quote from: Sithara007 on May 15, 2019, 10:16:26 PM

Quote from: Carry_Me_Hoome on May 15, 2019, 03:23:35 PM

The mining pools are pretty much the biggest controller of the fees and they don't want them to get TOOOO high or it would be bad for them too. IMO

The mining pools are responsible for the high fees. I still remember what happened in 2017, when some of the mining pools rejected a lot of transactions with low fee, although they were having a lot of space left with the 1 MB block size. Instead of using the full 1 MB size, some of them were using only 300KB or 400 KB. I don't have anything against prioritizing high fee transactions. But rejecting the low fee transactions and asking for a higher fee looks like plain blackmail for me.

it wasn't like that. it was done to increase their node's performance at the time because the mempool size was gigantic. so what they did was that they increased their minrelayfee so that they only receive transactions that they were including in blocks so imagine there is 100 MB transaction and only 20 MB of it is paying high fees and you can only select 1 MB of it, that means you are wasting 80 MB and that change saves that much.
the problem however was that they were lazy to change it back when the mempool size decreased so at some point they were still rejecting transactions while their blocks had empty space for them.

jseverson

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Quote from: pushups44 on May 15, 2019, 07:55:06 AM

This conversation highlights the need for the Lightning Network to make progress so that more activity can be pushed to layer 2. The fact that we are having this discussion shows that more infrastructure is needed to take transactions off the main chain. The reality is, the main chain is necessarily limited by design, so high fees are inevitable with widespread adoption.

It seems to be mostly ready, but it'll probably take the most popular wallets implementing it for it to have widespread usage. We already know that it can be dumbed down because Eclair has done pretty much that. I still expect the main chain to be busy, but since LN would likely take a lot of the low-amount high-priority transactions (real world transactions basically), the mining fees hopefully won't end up too high.

Quote from: Sithara007 on May 15, 2019, 10:16:26 PM

The mining pools are responsible for the high fees. I still remember what happened in 2017, when some of the mining pools rejected a lot of transactions with low fee, although they were having a lot of space left with the 1 MB block size. Instead of using the full 1 MB size, some of them were using only 300KB or 400 KB. I don't have anything against prioritizing high fee transactions. But rejecting the low fee transactions and asking for a higher fee looks like plain blackmail for me.

There are a few below-capacity blocks, but they've been mostly full the past days.

Sithara007

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Quote from: Carry_Me_Hoome on May 15, 2019, 03:23:35 PM

The mining pools are pretty much the biggest controller of the fees and they don't want them to get TOOOO high or it would be bad for them too. IMO

The mining pools are responsible for the high fees. I still remember what happened in 2017, when some of the mining pools rejected a lot of transactions with low fee, although they were having a lot of space left with the 1 MB block size. Instead of using the full 1 MB size, some of them were using only 300KB or 400 KB. I don't have anything against prioritizing high fee transactions. But rejecting the low fee transactions and asking for a higher fee looks like plain blackmail for me.

pooya87

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Quote from: gentlemand on May 15, 2019, 12:51:26 PM

Fees seem to be considerably higher today than when they were at the price peak a short while back. Interested to know why.

This is far from mania but I do wonder what the next mania will look like in terms of cost of moving coins. We don't have Bitmain spamming any more. Maybe we won't need them next time.

we might not have the traditional spammers who was spamming in 2017, active at the moment but there are still other type of spammers like the altcoins that are using bitcoin blockchain for their coin and their dump/pump is causing more transactions hence more spam on bitcoin network too.
but of course that is only a small part of the problem. we are still facing scaling issues that need solving.

Quote from: 1Referee on May 15, 2019, 03:17:07 PM

~ There have been a lot of high value transactions recorded on-chain, so it doesn't surprise me that the fees are higher than usual.

this is not new. every time there is a fee war, there are some small number of transactions that pay a very high fee probably because of what you said, there are some more that pay higher fees because of using broken wallets suggesting crap or using websites such as bitcoinfees.earn.com that intentionally suggest higher fees.

gentlemand

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Quote from: Carry_Me_Hoome on May 15, 2019, 03:23:35 PM

The mining pools are pretty much the biggest controller of the fees and they don't want them to get TOOOO high or it would be bad for them too. IMO

They have no say in the fees whatsoever. It's the users who decide what they're going to pay and who they're going to compete against to get ahead. The more the merrier for the miners.

Quote from: 1Referee on May 15, 2019, 03:17:07 PM

It could be that due to large OTC transactions where that next block confirmation is so important, that people just pay up for it. It's better to pay a dollar or two extra in fees than seeing the value of your transaction go down hundreds of thousands of dollars because you went with a $0.25 fee. There have been a lot of high value transactions recorded on-chain, so it doesn't surprise me that the fees are higher than usual.

Indeed. I guess if BTC is infested with people who are used to laying out to their broker for any legacy transaction, plus twitchiness about missing out, plus coming up against an army of similar people I guess our coffee drinking brethren are proper fucked for good unless LNs become something.

ene1980

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Quote from: thirdprize on May 15, 2019, 04:30:49 AM

If you are moving 100s of BTC around then you don't mind paying $2 transaction fee to get it done quick. You can afford it. It hurts the rest of us though as we can't. Btc will always be at the mercy of the whales.

So lets analyze your situation, if you are planning to send $2 worth of bitcoin and you are not ready to spent the same valuation in transaction fees, you have the freedom to set a transaction value of your choice at a much lower valuation but you have to wait for a longer time, never expect everything at the same time, with lightning network coming up you can have more freedom with the transaction fees if your plan is to send micro transactions all the time.

figmentofmyass

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Quote from: thirdprize on May 15, 2019, 04:30:49 AM

If you are moving 100s of BTC around then you don't mind paying $2 transaction fee to get it done quick. You can afford it. It hurts the rest of us though as we can't. Btc will always be at the mercy of the whales.

that's bitcoin's design for you. i don't think a fee market can really operate any other way. the block weight limit is the only thing that incentivizes users to pay fees, so achieving a competitive fee rate necessarily depends on transaction size.

in terms of transaction size, all outputs are created equal, regardless of how many bitcoins they hold.

don't stress......use segwit and send with < 5 satoshis per byte. it won't confirm immediately but you won't pay much at all. you'll be paying pennies USD. (even after this huge price increase)

Carry_Me_Hoome

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The mining pools are pretty much the biggest controller of the fees and they don't want them to get TOOOO high or it would be bad for them too. IMO

1Referee

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Quote from: gentlemand on May 15, 2019, 12:51:26 PM

Fees seem to be considerably higher today than when they were at the price peak a short while back. Interested to know why.

This is far from mania but I do wonder what the next mania will look like in terms of cost of moving coins. We don't have Bitmain spamming any more. Maybe we won't need them next time.

The problem isn't so much that we're being spammed, but that people (mostly speculators) recklessly choose a random high fee to be sure that their transaction is included in the next block. If a lot people do that at the same time, you get an auction effect where people outbid each other for that next block confirmation.

It could be that due to large OTC transactions where that next block confirmation is so important, that people just pay up for it. It's better to pay a dollar or two extra in fees than seeing the value of your transaction go down hundreds of thousands of dollars because you went with a $0.25 fee. There have been a lot of high value transactions recorded on-chain, so it doesn't surprise me that the fees are higher than usual.

It's a free fee market. Can't weapon yourself against that.

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