What are the Bigdogs doing with Crypto or are they still in old school markets?

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Quote from: Pipdips on November 17, 2019, 01:41:34 PM

Is Crypto really interesting the old school crowd of traders? Or do they just do what they always did before?

Nowadays, I don't think they still what they are doing before since the market is not as good those days in which on those days the market is so demand and many investors support the crypto enthusiasts as well as by those users find a way to have a profit by doing basic trading process. It's not as good today but there are some coin have a potential and can be give a good profit though not as huge amount but its good enough rather than nothing.

Pipdips

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Quote from: 1Referee on November 25, 2019, 05:31:31 PM

Quote from: BitHodler on November 25, 2019, 12:40:56 PM

They have been for years. All that's left to do is create the infrastructure and short to mid term demand to sell the coins they accumulated throughout the years to a bunch of suckers buying into that demand.

I'm pretty sure there has been some institutional presence in the previous years, but they aren't building the infrastructure to unload their bags. If that was their intention, they could have done that easier without the infrastructure we have today, which they spent millions uppon millions on and in some cases they suffered reputational damage like CBOE.

CBOE withdrew its futures and they can't get an etf to be approved despite their continuous efforts. It's the second largest exchange known to man, yet they can't force success.

Their current "limited etf fund" hasn't attracted much capital at all. It's truly a fail. There is currently only ~64BTC in the fund, and we don't know if these funds belong to Vaneck or actual institutional investors.

This is the first I have heard about this CBOE thing happening. It seems not much different than the first attempt made by Bakkt. Neither are as far off the ground yet as they would like to be but both of these will eventually fly.

The thing about it is once CBOE and Bakkt start working, Bitcoin will become more boring, and volatility will flatten out, and crypto will probably move slower and resemble the pace and the rhythm of the stock market.

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Quote from: BitHodler on November 25, 2019, 12:40:56 PM

They have been for years. All that's left to do is create the infrastructure and short to mid term demand to sell the coins they accumulated throughout the years to a bunch of suckers buying into that demand.

I'm pretty sure there has been some institutional presence in the previous years, but they aren't building the infrastructure to unload their bags. If that was their intention, they could have done that easier without the infrastructure we have today, which they spent millions uppon millions on and in some cases they suffered reputational damage like CBOE.

CBOE withdrew its futures and they can't get an etf to be approved despite their continuous efforts. It's the second largest exchange known to man, yet they can't force success.

Their current "limited etf fund" hasn't attracted much capital at all. It's truly a fail. There is currently only ~64BTC in the fund, and we don't know if these funds belong to Vaneck or actual institutional investors.

exstasie

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Quote from: buwaytress on November 25, 2019, 12:24:13 PM

Don't buy the mulch about institutionals waiting to get into crypto. They got in in 2016/17. And don't buy the even bigger mulch that the big dogs are going all in.

Within the institutional investment world, there are all different thresholds for risk. Hedge funds and higher risk trading firms have been entering the fray for years, but most of the institutional market still won't touch Bitcoin. We're talking about pension funds, insurance companies, asset management firms, etc. BlackRock is one of the biggest asset managers in the world and their CEO said last year that their clients have "zero interest" in Bitcoin.

I do expect the more conservative institutions to dip their toes into the market over the next decade as BTC becomes a lower and lower risk asset. An ETF or similarly accessible instrument will help adoption among institutions that mostly interface with securities.

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Quote from: buwaytress on November 25, 2019, 12:24:13 PM

They do like Bitcoin, though, trust me, it's just that they already ARE into it.

They have been for years. All that's left to do is create the infrastructure and short to mid term demand to sell the coins they accumulated throughout the years to a bunch of suckers buying into that demand.

Do they like Bitcoin? I think they do, but just from a volatility standpoint. IMHO, they don't see Bitcoin as a safe haven asset, neither a valid payment method. It's just one of the many risky assets they play around with and make money with.

buwaytress

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They're doing what they would do with any new opportunity: trading based on history, hedging everything against everything, and diversifying wisely.

Don't buy the mulch about institutionals waiting to get into crypto. They got in in 2016/17. And don't buy the even bigger mulch that the big dogs are going all in.

Big dogs got big because they diversified, and because they have good advisors telling them how to hedge. And because they invest big in things they can control, as VC people.

They do like Bitcoin, though, trust me, it's just that they already ARE into it.

exstasie

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Quote from: Pipdips on November 20, 2019, 10:24:35 AM

I follow all your replies.

I understand Tech Analysis and still need to learn Fundemental Analysis. So another question: Is it possible to do a Fundemental Analysis of paper fiat currencies? (examples Dollars, Euros, Yens)

Absolutely. You'd want to look at economic indicators like nonfarm payroll numbers, period-over-period growth, GDP, consumer sales, inflation, etc.

So for example, when the US economy is booming, interest rates are increased to stabilize growth and inflation. In turn, those rising interest rates make holding dollar-denominated assets increasingly attractive for investors. To buy those assets, investors need to buy dollars. This pressures USD and the DXY upwards.

Fundamental analysis is quite a bit more opaque and open to interpretation with Bitcoin.

NathanJB

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Quote from: Pipdips on November 17, 2019, 01:41:34 PM

Is Crypto really interesting the old school crowd of traders? Or do they just do what they always did before?

They are most probably distributed. Some big dogs are stuck in their stock market while some big dogs have their asses on crypto already, and some others are on forex. Others must have all of them. While others have only two. There are big dogs who are both crypto and stocks in their portfolio. Old dogs will have to earn new tricks or else they will be replaced with younger dogs.

BitcoinsGreat

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Quote from: Deathwing on November 17, 2019, 05:06:09 PM

Your question does not have a direct answer. Some bigdogs, or as we call it... whales. Are still active, and has been active for years. You can easily see several ten-hundred millions of dollars worth of Bitcoins and/or other cryptocurrencies moving fairly often, but you can't really compare it to the "old school markets".

Whales are still active and they are taking advantage by the bitcoin price movement. Whenever we see a bitcoin pump or dump for 300-500$ range in a single day, then it is because of the manipulation by the whales and big players who hold big portion of bitcoins.
Bigdogs will always be in the market to take the advantage of the volatile market.

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Considering Bitcoin, the big dogs are probably looking for better ways to control and manipulate the price, and those that have confidence in the underlying technology are increasing their stash of coins in preparation for a price spike.
Events over time has shown that manipulating the price of Bitcoin is unpredictable and could easily backfire and lead to huge losses, so as a whale I would capitalize on any price drop and increase the number of bitcoins I hold, there is a limited number and I will want to hold as much as possible.

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Quote from: Deathwing on November 17, 2019, 05:06:09 PM

Your question does not have a direct answer. Some bigdogs, or as we call it... whales. Are still active, and has been active for years. You can easily see several ten-hundred millions of dollars worth of Bitcoins and/or other cryptocurrencies moving fairly often, but you can't really compare it to the "old school markets".

Old school or new ones it would really be still the same.We have seen the market is on sideways but it doesnt mean that these big players are already sleeping.
They are just waiting for the right opportunity or timing and anytime it can happen on least we expect.For now they are just on idle state and might be planning for
something new that can trigger out the market or just simply waiting up for some action but for sure they are just lurking somewhere out there.

Pipdips

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I follow all your replies.

I understand Tech Analysis and still need to learn Fundemental Analysis. So another question: Is it possible to do a Fundemental Analysis of paper fiat currencies? (examples Dollars, Euros, Yens)

Or is Bitcoin still just to expansive and interconnected with too many new uncertainties to evaluate?

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Most of them are still in the old school markets and some may have moved into the derivatives market for a wider range of profit opportunities. Some may have moved into the cryptocurrency scene though of course, only those who mastered the markets--especially not the old lads--are in this game. Also, why would anyone successful in their traditional markets move over to the 'wild west' of intra-day trading, especially if they don't know what the other players think and with just a wrong move, they could lose a lot of money?

exstasie

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Quote from: Pipdips on November 19, 2019, 12:09:36 PM

Yeah the Big-dogs use Legacy markets and they already mastered it all. If my assumption is correct, for them the crypto market must be like taking candy from a baby!!! Their window for profits is much larger and more confident because of their seasoned skill levels. Like a feeding frenzy but they know to keep quiet about it.

Absolutely. Their trading algos are slaughtering retail traders. This isn't exactly a new development though. I've been noticing more HFT/algorithmic activity ever since 2014 or so. Over the years, the BTC market trades more and more like regular commodities. Super choppy, lots of whipsaws, gaps get filled, etc.

Wall Street's presence in the market is obvious but indeed, they don't announce themselves.

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on November 17, 2019, 05:50:48 PM

Quote from: 1Referee on November 17, 2019, 05:33:18 PM

'big dogs' that are used to trading legacy markets.

What are "legacy markets"? I've never heard that term before.

It just means more established markets. Gold, oil, agricultural commodities, high-cap equities, etc.

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on November 17, 2019, 05:50:48 PM

Anyway, there are still some old school bitcoiners who still post on the forum and I always wonder how much bitcoin they actually own. I have to think that for most of them, it's a hell of a lot unless they sold out too early.

Honestly, I think almost everyone sold too early and regrets it. That's literally been the experience of everyone I've talked to. It's just human nature. Very few people had the foresight (or luxury) to hold everything for the long term.

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Can we categorically call early bitcoin bag holders as old school traders? Makes me wonder.

Quote from: Pipdips on November 17, 2019, 01:41:34 PM

Is Crypto really interesting the old school crowd of traders? Or do they just do what they always did before?

I guess that is the difference with traditional investments. Crypto is still fairly young market, I wouldn't call those who have been in the market for five years as old school crowd of traders. And because of bitcoin's volatility, you can't never be called old traders because of its unpredictability. Maybe there are whales, who manipulates from behind. But they can only do it because they have tons of money to begin with.

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Quote from: Pipdips on November 17, 2019, 01:41:34 PM

Is Crypto really interesting the old school crowd of traders? Or do they just do what they always did before?

Are you referring to whales? Obviously, this old and traditional traders are also here to grow their money like the rest of us. The main difference is that they have deep pockets and that's why we call them manipulators. And as you have said they're old school, they know a lot of tricks and it's easy to do that in crypto because it's a free market and no one will prosecute them. Just imagine if someone manipulate stocks, I'm sure the government will haunt them. Unlike in crypto wherein we all have an addresses to use with no name attach to it.

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Yeah the Big-dogs use Legacy markets and they already mastered it all. If my assumption is correct, for them the crypto market must be like taking candy from a baby!!! Their window for profits is much larger and more confident because of their seasoned skill levels. Like a feeding frenzy but they know to keep quiet about it.

The Sceptical Chymist

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OP, are you talking about anyone in particular or just mentioning people in vague generalities that make it almost impossible to make an informed comment in your thread?

Also, don't bump your thread like you did in less than 24 hours. That's against the rules.

Quote from: 1Referee on November 17, 2019, 05:33:18 PM

'big dogs' that are used to trading legacy markets.

What are "legacy markets"? I've never heard that term before.

Quote from: 1Referee on November 17, 2019, 05:33:18 PM

while oldschool traders are fine even with 1-2% movements. With a 2-3x leverage every 1-2% move is a fantastic opportunity without too much risk exposure.

I'm assuming you're saying this because those so-called old school traders are trading large amounts of bitcoin, because they aren't the only ones with access to margin trading, but they're likely the ones who would make a TON of money on just a 1-2% movement as you said--and I mean the actual number of dollars of profit.

Anyway, there are still some old school bitcoiners who still post on the forum and I always wonder how much bitcoin they actually own. I have to think that for most of them, it's a hell of a lot unless they sold out too early. I don't suspect I'll ever know, since nobody talks about that kind of thing but I do think about that often.

1Referee

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Obviously, a market that produces more violent price swings and volatility is always interesting for the 'big dogs' that are used to trading legacy markets.

Even when people here are tired of the market moving sideways within a tight range, it's still perfectly tradable for the oldschool traders. People in crypto only feel comfortable trading the market when the price swings are at least 5-10% while oldschool traders are fine even with 1-2% movements. With a 2-3x leverage every 1-2% move is a fantastic opportunity without too much risk exposure.

Deathwing

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Your question does not have a direct answer. Some bigdogs, or as we call it... whales. Are still active, and has been active for years. You can easily see several ten-hundred millions of dollars worth of Bitcoins and/or other cryptocurrencies moving fairly often, but you can't really compare it to the "old school markets".

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