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Topic: What can I do with a bitcoin? - page 2. (Read 4203 times)
You can buy from any of the merchants accepting it, you can gamble with it, or you can invest it somewhere!
(You can use the link in my signature if you would like to invest and get me a customer referral )
(You can use the link in my signature if you would like to invest and get me a customer referral
)
The currency is indeed in its early stages and that is what fascinates me about it. I cant wait to see where bitcoin will be say, 2 years from now. Its still in its infancy but popularity is certainly growing.
It's very encouraging to see posters like porc. It means that we are still at the early stages. Be worried when these guys disappear and all you see is bitcoin bulls (even outside this forum).
porc, let me see if I understand what you mean.
You split the world into 2 categories:
A. what you call "something": anything that will always hold value to humans. Examples: water, shelter, air
B. what you call "nothing": anything that derives its value from a variable (government, belief, fashion...). Examples: fiat, bitcoin
And then your argument is that it is difficult to trust a system where we exchange something for nothing.
What I don't understand in your argument, is
1. Why are you putting gold in category A ? That gold is pretty is very subjective. I mean, I personally find a well-designed algorithm, an idea, a piece of knowledge, or a nice drawing on a paper much prettier than gold.
2. Do you suggest we go back to trading only within category A? The point of any currency from category B is to facilitate the exchange between things from category A. Of course at any moment the value of the currency could drop to zero, but that is a risk that I estimate is worth the price for the service it offers. Furthermore, in real life, it is the things from category A that have much more chance of having their value drop to zero (your house is destroyed, your bucket of water went bad, there was a breach in your container of fresh air).
3. Why do you think you can split the world into 2 simple categories? To me, there is a continuum of things that have more or less value and everything's value is a function of the time.
Edit: never mind about question 1. History strongly suggests that humans will always love gold. Let me replace it by the following question:
1 bis. You say you can do nothing with bitcoin. I guess you mean nothing in some "intrinsic" meaning, so excluding buying something. But bitcoin is a service. You can also do nothing with an insurance contract in this same "intrinsic" meaning. Would you say an insurance contract has no value?
You split the world into 2 categories:
A. what you call "something": anything that will always hold value to humans. Examples: water, shelter, air
B. what you call "nothing": anything that derives its value from a variable (government, belief, fashion...). Examples: fiat, bitcoin
And then your argument is that it is difficult to trust a system where we exchange something for nothing.
What I don't understand in your argument, is
1. Why are you putting gold in category A ? That gold is pretty is very subjective. I mean, I personally find a well-designed algorithm, an idea, a piece of knowledge, or a nice drawing on a paper much prettier than gold.
2. Do you suggest we go back to trading only within category A? The point of any currency from category B is to facilitate the exchange between things from category A. Of course at any moment the value of the currency could drop to zero, but that is a risk that I estimate is worth the price for the service it offers. Furthermore, in real life, it is the things from category A that have much more chance of having their value drop to zero (your house is destroyed, your bucket of water went bad, there was a breach in your container of fresh air).
3. Why do you think you can split the world into 2 simple categories? To me, there is a continuum of things that have more or less value and everything's value is a function of the time.
Edit: never mind about question 1. History strongly suggests that humans will always love gold. Let me replace it by the following question:
1 bis. You say you can do nothing with bitcoin. I guess you mean nothing in some "intrinsic" meaning, so excluding buying something. But bitcoin is a service. You can also do nothing with an insurance contract in this same "intrinsic" meaning. Would you say an insurance contract has no value?
Now lets look at bitcoin. Bitcoin REALLY is NOTHING. I cant do anything with it.
Of course YOU cannot, because you missed the train. But WE can: store, barter, transfer, donate, create, lose it etc. etc.
Thanks for your reply (serious). I think it demonstrates perfectly why bitcoiners are misguided. Let me go through your points one by one.
1) Your statement that "the greater thing that gives dollar value is the millions of people accepting it" is incorrect. It is the ONLY thing that gives dollars value. Now the reason anybody accepts nothing (paper) for something (goods) is that government forces us to do so (dollars have to be accepted for payment of any debt by law, alternative media of exchange are outlawed, ex. Liberty Gold or the use of soft force (regulation) makes it impossible to use them). If government would not force us to accept and use dollars the dollars price would return to the value of the paper content: almost 0.
2) Merchants will not accept nothing (bitcoin) for something. Merchants at the moment are dumping bitcoins immediately for dollars. This has been discussed already by this forum.
3) I agree. I think that Bitcoin is only bought because people are misguided and now (the majority) greedy. They think that bitcoin will continue to explode in price. They dont care about Bitcoins value (which I think is 0). I think Bitcoin will prove that you cant exchange "nothing" for "something" and that "nothing" is worth 0, even if "nothing" is rare (bitcoin might be abundant once nobody wants them anymore).
4) "All value is belief". No. I dont have to believe in the value of water. Water is valuable to human kind period. Nothing will change this "value judgement" (as if you could suddenly not decide to drink). You have to be delusional if you state that the belief in the "value" of 1 bitcoin (I cant do anything with it) is the same as belief in the value of water (I need it to survive).
5) Again similar answer to 4). People need shelter. Its not a believe that I hold, that I need shelter. If I want to stay warm and comfortable in winter times or when it rains I need shelter (aka reality). Equating this reality to the belief that bitcoin has value is laughable.
6) Same answer as 4) + 5)
7) You belief that something will be exchanged for nothing. It has never worked over a longer period of time in the history of man kind.
We will see what the future brings.
9) We agree.
1) Your statement that "the greater thing that gives dollar value is the millions of people accepting it" is incorrect. It is the ONLY thing that gives dollars value. Now the reason anybody accepts nothing (paper) for something (goods) is that government forces us to do so (dollars have to be accepted for payment of any debt by law, alternative media of exchange are outlawed, ex. Liberty Gold or the use of soft force (regulation) makes it impossible to use them). If government would not force us to accept and use dollars the dollars price would return to the value of the paper content: almost 0.
2) Merchants will not accept nothing (bitcoin) for something. Merchants at the moment are dumping bitcoins immediately for dollars. This has been discussed already by this forum.
3) I agree. I think that Bitcoin is only bought because people are misguided and now (the majority) greedy. They think that bitcoin will continue to explode in price. They dont care about Bitcoins value (which I think is 0). I think Bitcoin will prove that you cant exchange "nothing" for "something" and that "nothing" is worth 0, even if "nothing" is rare (bitcoin might be abundant once nobody wants them anymore).
4) "All value is belief". No. I dont have to believe in the value of water. Water is valuable to human kind period. Nothing will change this "value judgement" (as if you could suddenly not decide to drink). You have to be delusional if you state that the belief in the "value" of 1 bitcoin (I cant do anything with it) is the same as belief in the value of water (I need it to survive).
5) Again similar answer to 4). People need shelter. Its not a believe that I hold, that I need shelter. If I want to stay warm and comfortable in winter times or when it rains I need shelter (aka reality). Equating this reality to the belief that bitcoin has value is laughable.
6) Same answer as 4) + 5)
7) You belief that something will be exchanged for nothing. It has never worked over a longer period of time in the history of man kind.
We will see what the future brings.9) We agree.
1) I respectfully disagree, for the reasons given previously. As long as you hold that view, you won't be able to rationalise Bitcoin. I see at least why you so strongly disbelieve in bitcoin.
2) Not all merchants dump it. Less will as time passes and it proves itself more stable (assuming this happens). But, I think this is irrelevant anyway - as long as there is someone else who will give them dollars for it, a person who believes they'll then be able to exchange this BTC for goods, the chain of belief holds. Bitcoin can still find some use even if every transaction involves an exchange to or from dollars.
3) I agree that most buy it as speculation. I still think it would maintain some of this illusion of "value" without speculation. Then again - speculation IS belief. As long as the speculation holds, it has "value". How long will the speculation hold? Who knows. Maybe some nuclear alchemist will finally be able to create gold from nothing, and gold will have value only as gilding. Maybe bitcoin will regress to only having value as play money amongst hobbyists - but that is still value, even if a pizza does cost 10,000 bitcoins. I have varying amounts of belief in those different scenarios.
4) I never said the belief levels were the same. Of course, to a thirsty person water is more valuable. There is still *belief* there - they believe it will quench their first. If they had some strange mental disease and didn't hold that belief, water would have no value (according to them). If you are only somewhat thirsty, and I offer you either a glass of water or a bitcoin, a rational person may choose the bitcoin in the hope they can then exchange it some hours later for some water + some large excess of fiat. Surely you wouldn't refuse a bitcoin if I offered it to you free? You could exchange it for some gold! You would hold the belief that it is possible for some other person to give you gold in exchange... Even if you think their belief is *wrong*, you still know there is a fair chance they will accept it, and that knowledge itself I would categorise as "belief".
5,6) Same as 4. Intrinsic value still requires belief. What is shelter? It's the belief that this structure will provide you with warmth, with a comfy space to live in. If you didn't believe a house could provide that, you would not value it. Some people believe a bitcoin can provide them with real things. It doesn't matter that YOU disagree, all that matters is that this other person believes. Heck, when you buy a house, it can't even be hidden in your mind with a brainwallet like a bitcoin can! Instead, you have to rely mostly on the legal system to enforce your "ownership". Laws are an intangible thing backed by people (backed in turn by the *belief* that those people will enforce those laws).
7) Not exactly... I believe that real physical "somethings" are as intangible as a virtual bitcoin, because their physical existence has no particular meaning, only the human *belief* in them does. And belief can exist for virtual, intangible, things. You may think it is an incorrect, deluded belief... But it's still belief.
> So the answer is: I can dump it on the next guy?
YES! And that's OK. You can dump your gold on the next guy too. Maybe gold won't have value tomorrow. (And the likelihood of value tomorrow of gold vs bitcoin is a matter of opinion/belief.)
It applies to everything we consider to have future value. (Maybe the house stops rain falling on us right now, but to assume it will do so tomorrow requires belief. To assume it will continue to do so even in the next second requires belief. It may be a very strongly held belief, but it is in no way an absolute.) "Intrinsic value" is an illusion, a human obsession. As far as science can tell us, reality itself is no more than mathematical equations. Your house is a protocol. "If rain hits roof; repel".
In summary, it is my opinion that all humans are "misguided", not only bitcoiners.
It's the greater fool theory but applied to everything; we are all fools for believing in fiat, in gold, in real estate, in the food on our plates.
The only difference between these things is the amount of belief in them. I would accept that Bitcoin has far less belief in it than gold, real estate, etc. Yet it has more than zero belief.
> What can you do with a bitcoin?
Today you can buy some select things with it.
Tomorrow, you may not be able to.
Same for government fiat, just currently with a whole lot more belief.
Bolded part: In future humans will want shelter on planet earth. You categorize this statement as a belief, because nobody can be 100% certain of future events. Even though you are correct; you are being pedantic here. The same holds true for gold: Humans since the dawn of man have liked the look of gold. Most humans find it beautiful.
Now lets look at bitcoin. Bitcoin REALLY is NOTHING. I cant do anything with it. Now bitcoiners want me to belief that NOTHING WILL IN FUTURE ALWAYS be accepted FOR SOMETHING. Now this has NEVER happened before in HISTORY over any prolonged period of time. Thus it is highly unlikely that it will happen in future with bitcoin. The fact that NOTHING can be transferred and kept on your computer does not change this.
Again there are huge differences. Calling everything a belief without highlighting those differences is highly misleading (something bitcoiners love to do).
Thanks for your reply (serious). I think it demonstrates perfectly why bitcoiners are misguided. Let me go through your points one by one.
1) Your statement that "the greater thing that gives dollar value is the millions of people accepting it" is incorrect. It is the ONLY thing that gives dollars value. Now the reason anybody accepts nothing (paper) for something (goods) is that government forces us to do so (dollars have to be accepted for payment of any debt by law, alternative media of exchange are outlawed, ex. Liberty Gold or the use of soft force (regulation) makes it impossible to use them). If government would not force us to accept and use dollars the dollars price would return to the value of the paper content: almost 0.
2) Merchants will not accept nothing (bitcoin) for something. Merchants at the moment are dumping bitcoins immediately for dollars. This has been discussed already by this forum.
3) I agree. I think that Bitcoin is only bought because people are misguided and now (the majority) greedy. They think that bitcoin will continue to explode in price. They dont care about Bitcoins value (which I think is 0). I think Bitcoin will prove that you cant exchange "nothing" for "something" and that "nothing" is worth 0, even if "nothing" is rare (bitcoin might be abundant once nobody wants them anymore).
4) "All value is belief". No. I dont have to believe in the value of water. Water is valuable to human kind period. Nothing will change this "value judgement" (as if you could suddenly not decide to drink). You have to be delusional if you state that the belief in the "value" of 1 bitcoin (I cant do anything with it) is the same as belief in the value of water (I need it to survive).
5) Again similar answer to 4). People need shelter. Its not a believe that I hold, that I need shelter. If I want to stay warm and comfortable in winter times or when it rains I need shelter (aka reality). Equating this reality to the belief that bitcoin has value is laughable.
6) Same answer as 4) + 5)
7) You belief that something will be exchanged for nothing. It has never worked over a longer period of time in the history of man kind.
We will see what the future brings.
9) We agree.
1) Your statement that "the greater thing that gives dollar value is the millions of people accepting it" is incorrect. It is the ONLY thing that gives dollars value. Now the reason anybody accepts nothing (paper) for something (goods) is that government forces us to do so (dollars have to be accepted for payment of any debt by law, alternative media of exchange are outlawed, ex. Liberty Gold or the use of soft force (regulation) makes it impossible to use them). If government would not force us to accept and use dollars the dollars price would return to the value of the paper content: almost 0.
2) Merchants will not accept nothing (bitcoin) for something. Merchants at the moment are dumping bitcoins immediately for dollars. This has been discussed already by this forum.
3) I agree. I think that Bitcoin is only bought because people are misguided and now (the majority) greedy. They think that bitcoin will continue to explode in price. They dont care about Bitcoins value (which I think is 0). I think Bitcoin will prove that you cant exchange "nothing" for "something" and that "nothing" is worth 0, even if "nothing" is rare (bitcoin might be abundant once nobody wants them anymore).
4) "All value is belief". No. I dont have to believe in the value of water. Water is valuable to human kind period. Nothing will change this "value judgement" (as if you could suddenly not decide to drink). You have to be delusional if you state that the belief in the "value" of 1 bitcoin (I cant do anything with it) is the same as belief in the value of water (I need it to survive).
5) Again similar answer to 4). People need shelter. Its not a believe that I hold, that I need shelter. If I want to stay warm and comfortable in winter times or when it rains I need shelter (aka reality). Equating this reality to the belief that bitcoin has value is laughable.
6) Same answer as 4) + 5)
7) You belief that something will be exchanged for nothing. It has never worked over a longer period of time in the history of man kind.
We will see what the future brings.9) We agree.
1) I respectfully disagree, for the reasons given previously. As long as you hold that view, you won't be able to rationalise Bitcoin. I see at least why you so strongly disbelieve in bitcoin.
2) Not all merchants dump it. Less will as time passes and it proves itself more stable (assuming this happens). But, I think this is irrelevant anyway - as long as there is someone else who will give them dollars for it, a person who believes they'll then be able to exchange this BTC for goods, the chain of belief holds. Bitcoin can still find some use even if every transaction involves an exchange to or from dollars.
3) I agree that most buy it as speculation. I still think it would maintain some of this illusion of "value" without speculation. Then again - speculation IS belief. As long as the speculation holds, it has "value". How long will the speculation hold? Who knows. Maybe some nuclear alchemist will finally be able to create gold from nothing, and gold will have value only as gilding. Maybe bitcoin will regress to only having value as play money amongst hobbyists - but that is still value, even if a pizza does cost 10,000 bitcoins. I have varying amounts of belief in those different scenarios.
4) I never said the belief levels were the same. Of course, to a thirsty person water is more valuable. There is still *belief* there - they believe it will quench their first. If they had some strange mental disease and didn't hold that belief, water would have no value (according to them). If you are only somewhat thirsty, and I offer you either a glass of water or a bitcoin, a rational person may choose the bitcoin in the hope they can then exchange it some hours later for some water + some large excess of fiat. Surely you wouldn't refuse a bitcoin if I offered it to you free? You could exchange it for some gold! You would hold the belief that it is possible for some other person to give you gold in exchange... Even if you think their belief is *wrong*, you still know there is a fair chance they will accept it, and that knowledge itself I would categorise as "belief".
5,6) Same as 4. Intrinsic value still requires belief. What is shelter? It's the belief that this structure will provide you with warmth, with a comfy space to live in. If you didn't believe a house could provide that, you would not value it. Some people believe a bitcoin can provide them with real things. It doesn't matter that YOU disagree, all that matters is that this other person believes. Heck, when you buy a house, it can't even be hidden in your mind with a brainwallet like a bitcoin can! Instead, you have to rely mostly on the legal system to enforce your "ownership". Laws are an intangible thing backed by people (backed in turn by the *belief* that those people will enforce those laws).
7) Not exactly... I believe that real physical "somethings" are as intangible as a virtual bitcoin, because their physical existence has no particular meaning, only the human *belief* in them does. And belief can exist for virtual, intangible, things. You may think it is an incorrect, deluded belief... But it's still belief.
> So the answer is: I can dump it on the next guy?
YES! And that's OK. You can dump your gold on the next guy too. Maybe gold won't have value tomorrow. (And the likelihood of value tomorrow of gold vs bitcoin is a matter of opinion/belief.)
It applies to everything we consider to have future value. (Maybe the house stops rain falling on us right now, but to assume it will do so tomorrow requires belief. To assume it will continue to do so even in the next second requires belief. It may be a very strongly held belief, but it is in no way an absolute.) "Intrinsic value" is an illusion, a human obsession. As far as science can tell us, reality itself is no more than mathematical equations. Your house is a protocol. "If rain hits roof; repel".
In summary, it is my opinion that all humans are "misguided", not only bitcoiners.
It's the greater fool theory but applied to everything; we are all fools for believing in fiat, in gold, in real estate, in the food on our plates.
The only difference between these things is the amount of belief in them. I would accept that Bitcoin has far less belief in it than gold, real estate, etc. Yet it has more than zero belief.
> What can you do with a bitcoin?
Today you can buy some select things with it.
Tomorrow, you may not be able to.
Same for government fiat, just currently with a whole lot more belief.
Golds value is that people [...] think its pretty.
The blockchain is also pretty.
In general, you cannot eat money. Still, it is useful for many purposes.
You are giving a currrency that has innovations no other currency currently can claim. The limited number of bitcoins controlling inflation is one of them, the public records of where all bitcoins reside is another, the fact you can mine them is a third, the list goes on and on. You reap the benefits of a superior means of paying for things.
All currency or precious metals have value because the market gives it value. Even if we accept the theory that gold and silver have intrinsic value, the question still remains what should one ounce of gold cost? How is this determined? And why does the price constantly change?
Suppose the price of gold is currently selling for $300.00 an ounce and I think that gold should cost more than $300.00 an ounce. Suppose I ask for $1000.00. Will anyone buy it from me for $1000.00 when they can buy it for $300.00?
No. The market has determined a certain price at a certain time.
Who determines the value of Bitcoin? The marketplace. The current marketplace has determined that Bitcoin should have the price it currently has.
My two sense:
1. Bitcoin has value because of its technology. In this sense, so long as there is a need for sending instant payments that are beyond the control of governments, capital controls, and banks to anyone in the world, it will have value. Unlike other digital currencies, it is decentralized and open source, which is a strong foundation for an independent system. It is the technology itself, along with deflationary coins, which has value regardless of whether it be worth $1.00 or $10,000.
2. The current Bitcoin price is a speculative bubble. It has this large value because people want in on the action so they can become wealthy and then dump them for fiat currency. If you don't dump bitcoins, what can you do with them?
A. You can hold them as a storage of wealth (like bullion).
B. You can buy a very limited amount of goods and services.
Although it is true that gold is shiny and pretty and has industrial uses, it cannot be used effectively as an electronic transfer. Even if you create a digital gold currency, like e-gold, the problem still remains on how to create a peer-to-peer network with the baggage of backing the currency with real gold.
Both gold and Bitcoin are good.
Suppose the price of gold is currently selling for $300.00 an ounce and I think that gold should cost more than $300.00 an ounce. Suppose I ask for $1000.00. Will anyone buy it from me for $1000.00 when they can buy it for $300.00?
No. The market has determined a certain price at a certain time.
Who determines the value of Bitcoin? The marketplace. The current marketplace has determined that Bitcoin should have the price it currently has.
My two sense:
1. Bitcoin has value because of its technology. In this sense, so long as there is a need for sending instant payments that are beyond the control of governments, capital controls, and banks to anyone in the world, it will have value. Unlike other digital currencies, it is decentralized and open source, which is a strong foundation for an independent system. It is the technology itself, along with deflationary coins, which has value regardless of whether it be worth $1.00 or $10,000.
2. The current Bitcoin price is a speculative bubble. It has this large value because people want in on the action so they can become wealthy and then dump them for fiat currency. If you don't dump bitcoins, what can you do with them?
A. You can hold them as a storage of wealth (like bullion).
B. You can buy a very limited amount of goods and services.
Although it is true that gold is shiny and pretty and has industrial uses, it cannot be used effectively as an electronic transfer. Even if you create a digital gold currency, like e-gold, the problem still remains on how to create a peer-to-peer network with the baggage of backing the currency with real gold.
Both gold and Bitcoin are good.
1) All currency or precious metals have value because the market gives it value. Even if we accept the theory that gold and silver have intrinsic value, the question still remains what should one ounce of gold cost? 2) How is this determined? And why does the price constantly change?
3) Suppose the price of gold is currently selling for $300.00 an ounce and I think that gold should cost more than $300.00 an ounce. Suppose I ask for $1000.00. Will anyone buy it from me for $1000.00 when they can buy it for $300.00?
No. The market has determined a certain price at a certain time.
3) Suppose the price of gold is currently selling for $300.00 an ounce and I think that gold should cost more than $300.00 an ounce. Suppose I ask for $1000.00. Will anyone buy it from me for $1000.00 when they can buy it for $300.00?
No. The market has determined a certain price at a certain time.
1) You have to understand that certain things are valuable. The question is if we figure this out or not. For example oil was valuable before we figured this out. It had no price. We did not give oil value. We discovered oils value.
Now gold also has value to us, because the brains of most humans reacts positively to golds image (beauty). We also like to touch it. Thus we accepted it for payment of goods and services. Without golds beauty no money value.
2) The price changes depending on the demand for gold and the demand for the object we price gold in.
3) This is incorrect. You are a market participant. Your bid counts and increases the price of gold.
Who determines the value of Bitcoin? The marketplace. The current marketplace has determined that Bitcoin should have the price it currently has.
My two sense:
1. Bitcoin has value because of its technology. In this sense, so long as there is a need for sending instant payments that are beyond the control of governments, capital controls, and banks to anyone in the world, it will have value. Unlike other digital currencies, it is decentralized and open source, which is a strong foundation for an independent system. It is the technology itself, along with deflationary coins, which has value regardless of whether it be worth $1.00 or $10,000.
2. The current Bitcoin price is a speculative bubble. It has this large value because people want in on the action so they can become wealthy and then dump them for fiat currency. If you don't dump bitcoins, what can you do with them?
A. You can hold them as a storage of wealth (like bullion).
B. You can buy a very limited amount of goods and services.
C. Although it is true that gold is shiny and pretty and has industrial uses, it cannot be used effectively as an electronic transfer. Even if you create a digital gold currency, like e-gold, the problem still remains on how to create a peer-to-peer network with the baggage of backing the currency with real gold.
D. Both gold and Bitcoin are good.
1) Sending BTCdoes not give BTC value.
Often people say: The Bitcoin network is valuable because you can send value at little to no cost. But BTC has not value. Thus you are sending nothing at a cost. Thats called a waste.
2) Yes price is not necessarily a reflection of value. I agree with your statements, however I think it is better classified as a pyramid than a speculative bubble (as that might imply value, which is not present).
A. no you cant as a store of value can only be something that has value.
B. buying goods and services is dumping (dumping bitcoins on the merchant who dumps them on the next guy for dollars)
C. Bitcoin network has not solved the problems of value transfer, as it is not transferring value. Again BTC do not have value.
D. gold is good. Bitcoin is a pyramid.
Golds value is that people like to look at it and touch it, they think its pretty. This value is why people accept it as a payment of goods and services. Golds monetary value is therefore directly linked and dependent on it being pretty. If it would not have been pretty we would not want it and thus it would not be widespread money.
You cant seperate between money value and utility as gold is only money because it has utility (it being pretty).
Bitcoin has no utility (like being pretty) and thus its other aspects (scare, divisible etc.) are irrelevant.
You cant seperate between money value and utility as gold is only money because it has utility (it being pretty).
Bitcoin has no utility (like being pretty) and thus its other aspects (scare, divisible etc.) are irrelevant.
In a free society, everyone should free to choose for themselves what they are willing to accept in exchange for the goods they produce or the services they provide. Bitcoins obviously don't meet your personal requirements and, fortunately, one of the best things about bitcoins is that using them is completely voluntary. I don't think you have to worry about a banker or politician ever forcing you to accept bitcoins.
Bitcoin is a decentralized payment network over which the currency exists. This has some value i guess because it's the first time in history that something like that is being achieved.
And I would add another point.
You keep talking about gold and silver, which I fully support, having value because it is shiny and pretty. The problem with you overall argument is that both the Bitcoin and the precious metals markets are speculative.
When the price of gold starts to rise, people want in on the action. They want to buy and then dump them for fiat. Now it is true some do not dump gold and silver at all because they think they have value, whereas fiat does not. The same is true with Bitcoin. Some buy and dump for fiat profit. Other buy and hold because they see the value of this technology and believe that its value is more important than fiat bills.
Yes, gold is tangible and pretty. It can be used for many applications. But the same principle applies to Bitcoin electronically.
You keep talking about gold and silver, which I fully support, having value because it is shiny and pretty. The problem with you overall argument is that both the Bitcoin and the precious metals markets are speculative.
When the price of gold starts to rise, people want in on the action. They want to buy and then dump them for fiat. Now it is true some do not dump gold and silver at all because they think they have value, whereas fiat does not. The same is true with Bitcoin. Some buy and dump for fiat profit. Other buy and hold because they see the value of this technology and believe that its value is more important than fiat bills.
Yes, gold is tangible and pretty. It can be used for many applications. But the same principle applies to Bitcoin electronically.
Bitcoin is worse than fiat, as it is nothing and nobody guarantees me that nothing will be exchanged for something like the US government does with paper dollars.
The decision is whether you want a small number of politicians or bankers controlling things or whether you want that control to be "crowd-sourced." I think it remains to be seen which is better or worse and since both systems will probably exist for a long time it is a matter of choice and diversity.
All currency or precious metals have value because the market gives it value. Even if we accept the theory that gold and silver have intrinsic value, the question still remains what should one ounce of gold cost? How is this determined? And why does the price constantly change?
Suppose the price of gold is currently selling for $300.00 an ounce and I think that gold should cost more than $300.00 an ounce. Suppose I ask for $1000.00. Will anyone buy it from me for $1000.00 when they can buy it for $300.00?
No. The market has determined a certain price at a certain time.
Who determines the value of Bitcoin? The marketplace. The current marketplace has determined that Bitcoin should have the price it currently has.
My two sense:
1. Bitcoin has value because of its technology. In this sense, so long as there is a need for sending instant payments that are beyond the control of governments, capital controls, and banks to anyone in the world, it will have value. Unlike other digital currencies, it is decentralized and open source, which is a strong foundation for an independent system. It is the technology itself, along with deflationary coins, which has value regardless of whether it be worth $1.00 or $10,000.
2. The current Bitcoin price is a speculative bubble. It has this large value because people want in on the action so they can become wealthy and then dump them for fiat currency. If you don't dump bitcoins, what can you do with them?
A. You can hold them as a storage of wealth (like bullion).
B. You can buy a very limited amount of goods and services.
Although it is true that gold is shiny and pretty and has industrial uses, it cannot be used effectively as an electronic transfer. Even if you create a digital gold currency, like e-gold, the problem still remains on how to create a peer-to-peer network with the baggage of backing the currency with real gold.
Both gold and Bitcoin are good.
Suppose the price of gold is currently selling for $300.00 an ounce and I think that gold should cost more than $300.00 an ounce. Suppose I ask for $1000.00. Will anyone buy it from me for $1000.00 when they can buy it for $300.00?
No. The market has determined a certain price at a certain time.
Who determines the value of Bitcoin? The marketplace. The current marketplace has determined that Bitcoin should have the price it currently has.
My two sense:
1. Bitcoin has value because of its technology. In this sense, so long as there is a need for sending instant payments that are beyond the control of governments, capital controls, and banks to anyone in the world, it will have value. Unlike other digital currencies, it is decentralized and open source, which is a strong foundation for an independent system. It is the technology itself, along with deflationary coins, which has value regardless of whether it be worth $1.00 or $10,000.
2. The current Bitcoin price is a speculative bubble. It has this large value because people want in on the action so they can become wealthy and then dump them for fiat currency. If you don't dump bitcoins, what can you do with them?
A. You can hold them as a storage of wealth (like bullion).
B. You can buy a very limited amount of goods and services.
Although it is true that gold is shiny and pretty and has industrial uses, it cannot be used effectively as an electronic transfer. Even if you create a digital gold currency, like e-gold, the problem still remains on how to create a peer-to-peer network with the baggage of backing the currency with real gold.
Both gold and Bitcoin are good.
So the answer is: I can dump it on the next guy?
Yes. It is called a medium of exchange. That is the purpose of a currency. It represents value. You can exchange it for value.Anyway, why are you singling out Bitcoin? 1) Every form of money has a value greater than the value of its utility (beyond its value as a currency).
You cant separate between money value and utility as gold is only money because it has utility (it being pretty).
Bitcoin has no utility (like being pretty) and thus its other aspects (scare, divisible etc.) are irrelevant.
1) The value of gold goes far beyond the value of its beauty. Most of the gold in the world is owned due to its value as money and not due to its beauty.
2) I accept your argument that a bitcoin has no utility other than use as a currency, but I think that fact that disproves your point. Bitcoin is money even though it does not conform to Mises' Regression Thereom.
1) Reread what I wrote: The money value only exists because of its beauty. Without beauty no money value.
2) No it is not money. Money has utility/ value. Nobody will accept nothing for something. Remember: Merchants dump bitcoin immediately for dollars. Speculators buy because they think the price will go up. Some are just plain misguided. Nothing that has happened so far proves anything. Not my argument not your argument.
Now what do you give me in return?
What can I do with a bitcoin once you have transferred it to me?
What can I do with a bitcoin once you have transferred it to me?
I think the idea is you can then exchange the bitcoin for goods/services/fiat currency etc, the same way you would exchange a $100 bill for other stuff.
I don't need to be able to do anything intrinsically with the bitcoin or the $100 bill (i.e. I can't eat or drink either of them) for them to have exchange value.
Gold always was wanted because it looks great. People like to wear it and touch it. When I exchanged something for gold I received value.
The Dollar only had value because government forces us to accept it. If I exchange something for dollars, I get government guns to make sure it will buy me goods
Now what about Bitcoin? Why Exchange Something for Nothing? If your answer is because you can transfer Nothing cheaply let me tell you this:
Incurring a cost (something) for transferring nothing is a waste not a benefit.
This only works on the currencies home turf...it is no longer legal tender and turns into a foreign currency as soon as it crosses a border.
Just think of Bitcoin as a foreign currency used by people who could care less. All that really matters is that buyers and sellers can use it no matter where they are in the world to buy and sell shit without anything more than a laptop computer or mobile phone. No credit cards, no debit cards, no cheques, no special point of sale machines, no banks, no governments blah blah blah.
If you can't see a value in that then you need to get out more.
You are willing to give up your water for BitCoin? Wow! Just flushed a couple of times for free... Send me your BC.
Well I cant even flush bitcoin down the toilet. So I give you water that you can drink and flush down the toilet.
You give me a Bitcoin which is a fancy word for nothing.
def Bitcoin: Nothing that I can transfer at a cost.
Correct. When you think about it the same thing applies to all forms of money since humans started using money. Once you realize that most of the objections to Bitcoin disappear.
I have refuted this statement about 20 times in 3 different threads (bitcoiners always bring it up).
Golds value: it being pretty to look at, I can touch it and like the feel of it, it has a warm shine.
Bitcoins value: nothing
Dollars value (gold standard): the paper only has no value for itself. Its value is derived by the gold backing it. Gold has value as explained above.
Dollars value (fiat): no value. we accept it because government forces us to use it.
Bitcoin is worse than fiat, as it is nothing and nobody guarantees me that nothing will be exchanged for something like the US government does with paper dollars.
So the answer is: I can dump it on the next guy?
Yes. It is called a medium of exchange. That is the purpose of a currency. It represents value. You can exchange it for value.
Anyway, why are you singling out Bitcoin? 1) Every form of money has a value greater than the value of its utility (beyond its value as a currency).
Golds value is that people like to look at it and touch it, they think its pretty. This value is why people accept it as a payment of goods and services. Golds monetary value is therefore directly linked and dependent on it being pretty. If it would not have been pretty we would not want it and thus it would not be widespread money.
You cant seperate between money value and utility as gold is only money because it has utility (it being pretty).
Bitcoin has no utility (like being pretty) and thus its other aspects (scare, divisible etc.) are irrelevant.
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