Topic: What do you think about physical paper bitcoins (you can buy them with paypal) (Read 1469 times)

The ripoff opportunity is the other way around, the person presenting the bill gets ripped off, not the one accepting the bill.

The one accepting the bill merely scans the bill and initiates a "sweep" transaction to immediately send the funds to another address.  Unless a conflicting transaction shows up on the network immediately, it's pretty safe for the seller.



And I used to do the exact same thing, I sold paper wallets for PayPal (notice paperbitcoinwallet.com forwards to casascius.com).  No one ever ripped me off, but there isn't a whole lot of demand for them either, not when you can just go print your own for free and not worry someone else kept the private key and is going to steal your money in the future.  My purpose in doing so back in the day was not to make money, but simply to promote the fact that bitcoins could be kept on paper when very few realized it was possible and before bitaddress.org came to exist.  People understand this now, mission accomplished, so I don't bother to sell them anymore.

You can rip someone off at every purchase... hell if I would ever accept these.
+1

Back to the OP, I think they are a worthless idea with very little real world application. Selling them for PayPal is an open invitation to be ripped off, setting up a system where you can be ripped off so easily will make people want to reverse these paper bitcoins, having reversible paper bitcoins floating around does nothing to enhance the value of any other bitcoin, and leaves a bad taste with anyone who touches them.

You indeed can, but that doesn't make a paper wallet worthless.


apples and oranges... hacking a safe requires physical access, greatly narrowing the pool of potential attackers.  More humans are familiar with securing physical objects with physical security versus digital files with encryption, so putting bitcoins in non-electronic form makes them useful to more human earthlings than would be if they were strictly digital.


More people are able to operate a photocopier and confirm to their own satisfaction that the copy was successful as compared to copying digital files... remember, not everyone is as much a genius as you

Of course, assuming both of them understand what's on the stick... more human brains are compatible with paper than USB sticks.


The point is that it can be done.  Odds that the typo will be detected and rejected by the system: 1-2^-32


Enter USB QR scanner, a neat product available from numerous vendors now.  Emulates a USB keyboard.


Converting any BTC to cash requires them finding a buyer.  If your family is all computer geniuses, then by all means, use a USB stick.  I am not so lucky, and see value in the chance they'd recognize a piece of paper as valuable that said "This barcode is worth xxxx BTC, go to this URL to verify the value", rather than a USB stick that - unless you labeled it - would look like every other worthless USB stick on planet earth.

In summary, yes, you are right, backups of wallet files on removable media are very valuable.  I'm not looking to argue that digital files are not valuable, I am simply refuting your earlier claim that paper ones are worthless in every way.

Same for USB stick.
Furthermore, you'd physically have to take the paper to the safe. Whereas I can upload my backup to any server in the world from the comfort of my chair.
More importantly: I can backup my digital wallet automatically.

"hacking" a safe or deposit box is much, MUCH easier than hacking a USB stick with an encrypted wallet.

So how is that easier than copying your wallet file? Digital files are copied faster, cheaper, easier. And it's eco-friendly.

Same for USB (or email, or any kind of electronic communication which is, again faster, cheaper and easier).

Probability of making at least one typo when reading out loud a 54-digit MiXeD CaSe alphanumeric code: approximately 100%

Uh, no, he can't. He has to enter the key first (again, very high chance of typo's) only to perform an online process that was intended to be entirely digital in the first place.

I seriously doubt that. Converting paper BTC to cash involves several additional steps, compared to converting regular BTC to cash.

First, this idea, and then, the website http://bitaddress.org was born.

Nope...is in response to what?


Why is that less convenient?  I think it's more convenient to print my own money given the choice than to drive to an ATM and pay $5 in fees to withdraw it, but to each their own.

I could let people print them.. good idea

Nope... blockchain.info allows sending from multiple addresses in one transaction.
Even if that weren't true, you're basically saying that these paper bills will only be involved in small real-world transactions, rendering them less convenient than paper one-dollar bills...

If you print your bills in small enough denominations then the most someone can do is rip you off for the value of one bill, the same way they could take cash out of your hand and run away with it.  When the value of each bill is small enough, the incentive to try it is small and most people won't bother, any more than they would bother now to take cash tips from a restaurant table.

Not sure I agree.  A paper BTC can be stuck in a safe or safety deposit box, can't be hacked, can be backed up via photocopy.  Among people who trust one another, it can be handed face-to-face like cash.  It can be read over the telephone.  And between parties where trust is reduced (e.g. a retail store or vending scenario), the recipient can instantly capture the funds off the paper BTC upon presentation.

If you die, your family is more likely to figure out what to do with a piece of paper than a USB stick, due to the reduced complexity involved in figuring out what it is.

1. Send bitcoins to a new address
2. Print the private key
3. Hard-format your HDD and overwrite your RAM
4. Check to see if someone was looking over your shoulder
5. Bury it like a pirate

But spending it is a bad idea. I summed up several ways this could go wrong in a previous post. Even the most secure way (hashing the private key to make sure that it points to the address claimed, then checking the balance of that address) is vulnerable to the customer handing you the bill, waiting for you to check it, then pressing 'Send' on their Android...

I think the idea would be fantastic if people could just print their own paper bitcoins.

Offering paper bitcoin wallets for sale (I have done it) brings risk upon both parties.  Your buyer risks the chance you'll steal their coins, and you as the seller risk being accused of stealing from your buyer with no way to prove you didn't.

On the other hand, if any standard Bitcoin client could spit Bitcoin "bills" to the printer, that would be taking "be your own bank" to a whole new level.  Forget ATM fees, just print your own cash!

Spending those paper bitcoins would be simple: the store would have a QR code scanner, and would make change by either sending it back to your bill (least secure but most convenient, especially for small amounts), or to a new bill they print on demand (also least secure), or one of your remaining unused bills, by scanning only the bitcoin address (most secure).

the address

Is the key the key to a bitcoin address or something else?

It would be just like BitBills..I could easily put a warning on it that says do not trade

Right... Exactly how is a paper BTC safer than its digital counterpart? You can't back it up, easily store it on several distant locations, encrypt it, send it to your nephew in Hong Kong, and countless other things that make regular Bitcoins so much more convenient than old fashioned $ bills.

Seriously, a paper bitcoin is worse than a digital one in every possible way.

Is the key the key to a bitcoin address or something else? What's to prevent someone from stealing it, taking the coins, and replacing it? What's to prevent someone from spending the bitcoins on it and keeping the paper? Transactions take time. What if I hand a paper with a bitcoin private key on it, they verify that the key corresponds to an address with X amount of money, and then I quickly spend it, since I had the private key earlier?

...Or are they not actually meant to be passed around?

It's also for safety, you can hold onto them for years and you don't need to use them until you want

Seems a bit (heh) unnecessary to me. At the moment, we unfortunately can't go around handing paper BTC to stores. Because of this, a digital-only currency makes sense and is easy to use.

Unless, of course, someone wants them just for their novelty value. Pulling out a wad of bitcoins would feel pretty nice.