Topic: What exactly is the point of everyone's hatred of ASIC's? - page 4. (Read 5319 times)

If EVERY miner had ASICs, today, right now, and co-ops became a thing of the past, someone would think of something better, and co-ops would start up again for those who couldn't afford the "something better."

To be certain, co-ops will always be there for some who would rather not mess with the mining themselves. But ASICs are hated because they make the "playing field," the mining, too difficult or expensive for some.

ASICs should be hated because they help the 51% monopoly to become more of a reality.

How much energy do you think it takes to ship fiat currency around the world? To print it? How many resources do bank branches and sky scrapers use? These things are much more obscene in wasting energy but that is just my opinion.

i dont agree, the reason that coops are forming is because you need big money to compete right now. but that will all go away sooner then you might imagine.

asic manufacturers have been selling ancient technology for premium prices because there wasn`t anything better. 60nm chips where thrown out of hosting farms a decade ago and been poisioning children in africa ever since because back then they where allready slow and ineficient.
BFL is still selling the same stuff to this day in jallapenos if im not mistaken. there isn`t any competition on the asic market atm. just a big race to where we should have been allready.
asic devs have been leapfrogging, not competing. there is a real difference!

once the dust settles the is no reason anymore for huge farms to exist. there will be some out there, just like there are big ltc farms now. but they wont be a threat because mining will be available to everyone once again...................................       until quantum computing hits the market. i just paid for my preorder. they promised the delivery date will be no later then q3 of 2031

There is really only one reason to hate ASICs. And it might not be a reason at all; there might not be any reason.

The fact that some miners have lost money because they are not able to compete with their GPUs is not a valid reason. They went into it as an investment. It didn't fail them. It only changed. Now they have to mine Litecoin, or some other coin that doesn't use ASICs, and buy/sell at one of the exchanges. They haven't lost. It has simply been another milestone for them to overcome. They will have done it already, or they would have failed anyway.

The only real reason to hate ASICs is that they help to clump mining into mining clubs or co-ops. It is this clumping that might become a danger to Bitcoin - the 51% danger - making Bitcoin centralized. We are at a strong point with Bitcoin... a strong point of financial freedom. If Bitcoin goes down because of centralization by some mining co-op, it will be a long time for some other coin - one that doesn't have the 51% flaw - to catch up.

Personally, I recommend building Peercoin (ppcoin) as an alternative to Bitcoin. Why? Peercoin has a good start. It seems to be reasonably stable. And it is both, mined and minted. Minting is based on how many coins you hold and for how long. The centralizing threat is almost nonexistent with Peercoin.

Let's build both Bitcoin and Peercoin, Bitcoin because it has such a good start, and Peercoin because it is a tad safer. Forget the hatred, and get on with your life. Focus your energies on helping yourself and everyone else against the flaws that are readily visible in the fiat currency system.

a single gpu can be bought easily for little investment. and does double duty as a gaming divice and mining investment. i know people who bought a better card or went crossfire because they would pay for themselves. and with the money made they went on and bought more or better equipment.

with asics it is imposible to work your way up. anything under a couple of grand wil never roi. and buying a gaming rig that you wil actually use for 2 grand or a box that sits in the corner wich you can only look at is not the same.  
it went from a nice interesting hobby to have some fun with for regular people and maybe even a way to pay for your gaming rig, to a wild west high stakes battlefield where if you dont pay attention and keep up with everything you will get fucked by everyone and their neighbour. in a matter of months.
and a lot of people lost everything, most of them by bad luck or things out f their controll.

if you dont have cash to burn, you just cant play at the moment. people who where running big rigs then jumped on the asics, those are not the ones who complain. the small guys who where the early adopters are the ones who feel robbed of their baby, and i can understand that. their baby turned into an out of controll teenager.

and indeed the asic manufacturers are also a big problem. they abuse the system in a way that was never intended. but i dont blame them. its part of the transition, if i knew how to make these things for a few houndred bucks and people where throwing buckets full of money at me just to get their hands on them i would also charge as much as i could get for them. anybody who says they wouldn`t is a liar or an idiot.

also the insane difficulty jumps turn the stuff you actually do buy into paperweights in a matter of months. those are risks you have to be willing and able to take, and indeed only for the people who actually allready have money.

but by this time next year things will will be back to how they where in the good old gpu days. the first asic chips where basicly ten year old technology. but asic manufacturers are catching up with current technology fast and when they hit the point where intel, amd and nvidea are now the big jumps in chip performance are a thing of the pas. things we tell our gandchildren about.
intel and amd have been struggling for years to push performance further. and those are the billion dollar big dogs. or do you think bfl has the r&d capabilaties to go out and show intel how its done. no way!

once performance increases go back to a 10 or 15% gain per year (gpus have been on this schedul for decades) instead of the current 50% per month because every month there is another dev who comes to market with even faster stuff, the network growth no longer will come from constantly faster and faster chips hitting the market, but just from sales of extra units. then the stuff that you buy will actually be rellevant for a few years.
just like 7950`s still are a decent buy nowdays, even though they have been on the market now for nearly 2 years or something. and even with amd gpus being sold out for months now, difficulty levels on scrypt never went as crazy as they did for sha. not even close.

bywhen that happens the asic manufacturers will all be selling basicly the same stuff. just like nvidea and amd, and chevrolet and dodge , and all other competing companies have been since the dawn of time.
We will be in controll of the market once again! Pre orders will go away! Prices of machines will drop and the cheap entry level asic miners will actually be relevent again and make some cash for the owner. enabling people to start small and work their way up again if they desire. or just do it for fun, as it should be.

the future for btc is bright!!! once the out of controll teenager becomes an adult. everybody wil love bitcoin again again. even the early adopters who are asic haters now.

Who cares. I'm mining on Mars anyway.

It's far less than the energy required to run the things which Bitcoin could potentially replace.

How much energy does it take a single bank to be open for business each week? Consider the land to house the bank. The materials to build the bank. The vehicles to transport the employees too and from work. The paper checks. The plastic debit/credit cards. The air conditioning/heating. The security. The customers driving to and from the bank. Et cetera. How many actual banks exist? I think there are over 6 in my small town alone.

Then you have things like the VISA network. The printing of actual fiat money (which involves growing, harvesting, and preparing cotton). The US military to protect the petro-dollar!

LOL, fiat is far more environmentally unsound.

I hated them because the people selling them were not to be trusted.  i did not want to send my money into a blackhole where the people selling them thought very little of their customers.

So much energy being wasted on mining, save the planet maaaaaaannn. But seriously, there is so much energy/power being used in mining. It's an obscene amount.

No, ASIC devices do not "go against" both of those things.

Specialization is inevitable. It isn't logical to fight it.

Ultimately, hashing with an ASIC device is less expensive than hashing with a GPU or CPU because they are more efficient.

If Bitcoin continues to exist, we will see more available hardware as competition continues.

QFT and me, too about GPU mining. I'm a gamer, so why not?

I think bitcoin's early meteoric gains (china) drew the attention of a lot of wide-eyed slackers who thought they'd found the holy grail.

And they were right. The mistake they made was buying mining hardware from scam artists instead of simply trading their FIAT in for crypto and being patient enough for it to mature.

Everyone knows it doesn't cost $20,000 to produce one of these ASIC miners, but people pay it because it's a money-printer! Big surprise, you got scammed on the purchase of your money printer.

What did you expect? What rational human being would sell an object that is worth more plugged in that it is sold to the public?

My personal opinion is that BTC was created to fight cintralization and to be available to everyone. ASIC's go against both of those things.

I agree that is a "rich gets richier" thing.
I  own several ASICS, and (even close) none of them give me ROI yet.

Why, well, shipping time, shipping destination (if you are not in asia, europe or the US you are fucked) by the time the ASIC arrived, and I was able to take it out of customs, the complexity grow so much that they make very little.

I do NOT agree that is the same that CPU guys complains about GPU guys, because BOTH can be purchased easily anywhere!, ASICS do NOT.
ASICS require preorders, and those who are on the most developed countrys get them FIRST, and we, in 3rd world countries get them LAST, so we LOOSE, so IT IS a "rich gets richier" scenario, like it or not, admit it!.

GPU are versatile, can mine ANYTHING (and do other shady things too   ) so are my FIRST choice by FAR, and I can purchase them with easy, and NOT they are NOT cheaper than ASICS at all.
most top of the line GPUs I have costs a lot more than ASICs equipments, not to mention what costs 1 of my big GPU rigs.
but at least I can buy them without ppl asking me what is that, what are you using for, because they are general purpose items, and in some countries, the LESS the government know about what you do, the better!.
so, sorry, but it is NOT ignorance.
if I had live in asia, I probably had developed an ASIC by myself right now, since it is not the first time I design specific purpose ICs for the industry, but the country where you live is a decisive factor.

That did cause a lot of heat.

I think people are more furious with companies making ASICS. I mean some preordered the Bfl shit in September and still haven't got it FFS. I personally prefer altcoin GPU mining.

it's a 'rich get richer' sort of thing where those who have money can buy more powerful hardware and make more money faster so people create coins to combat this to distribute coins out more evenly.

Correct. Now if we had another xxx product to mine bitcoin, ASIC miners would hate those, and so on.

Valid point, however I think if a government wants to take down a crypto-currency it doesn't care if it has to ban ASIC's or have a war on crypto-currency miners similar to its war on drugs, if you change the scenario they will adapt accordingly.

A top of the line GPU mining rig will cost an amount similar to an ASIC device. The ASIC is going to be way more efficient at mining.

CPU miners bitched about GPU miners the same way GPU miners bitched about ASIC miners.

Sorry, it's ignorance.

its easy to pull the plug on big centralised operation = block chain stuck and open to 51%.