What happens to BTC when Finra or the SEC shut down Mtgox for money laundering? - page 2.

laughingbear

hero member

Activity: 622

Merit: 500

www.cryptobetfair.com

Quote from: Herodes on March 17, 2013, 03:53:10 PM

Quote from: laughingbear on March 17, 2013, 03:02:15 PM

There is a huge difference between usd-btc exchanges and currency exchanges. btc-e does usd-rur and usd-eur. That is a big no-no. Exchanging between currencies with zero information about your customers is highly illegal, and it does not matter where they are located. I cant believe they haven't been shut down yet. It is only a matter of time.

You're saying it's highly illegal to do usd-eur exchange. Do you also think it's highly illegal to steal ? What if the government steals ? Is that making stealing legal ? You know what happened to Cyprus recently ?

Legal/illegal - it doesn't really matter much. The only things that matters from the perspective of the policy and law makers are what THEY think is legal or illegal.

If a government decided it was illegal for you to buy grapefruits tomorrow, they could do so. Do you see the stupidity of this system ?

If a person has EUR, USD or any other currency, he should be able to exchange this with whoever he wants, whenever he wants, whereever he wants.

I agree with you, but that wont make your coins reappear once the government shuts down the website.

Herodes

hero member

Activity: 868

Merit: 1000

Quote from: laughingbear on March 17, 2013, 03:02:15 PM

There is a huge difference between usd-btc exchanges and currency exchanges. btc-e does usd-rur and usd-eur. That is a big no-no. Exchanging between currencies with zero information about your customers is highly illegal, and it does not matter where they are located. I cant believe they haven't been shut down yet. It is only a matter of time.

You're saying it's highly illegal to do usd-eur exchange. Do you also think it's highly illegal to steal ? What if the government steals ? Is that making stealing legal ? You know what happened to Cyprus recently ?

Legal/illegal - it doesn't really matter much. The only things that matters from the perspective of the policy and law makers are what THEY think is legal or illegal.

If a government decided it was illegal for you to buy grapefruits tomorrow, they could do so. Do you see the stupidity of this system ?

If a person has EUR, USD or any other currency, he should be able to exchange this with whoever he wants, whenever he wants, whereever he wants.

mobile4ever

hero member

Activity: 546

Merit: 500

Quote from: Newscastix on March 17, 2013, 03:00:23 PM

There is at least one exchange that cannot be shut down as easily as Mt. Gox:

https://localbitcoins.com

They can shut down the site but not the market itself. As decentralized as it gets.

For now

. Plus, you can only make money one way there. Things are improving.

ralree

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 500

Manateeeeeeees

Quote from: solomon on March 17, 2013, 01:46:49 PM

BTW these forums will be one of the first things to go down if bitcoin is made illegal.

Yeah just like all those websites and forums where one can talk about illegal drugs and filesharing don't exist. Wait a minute...

Severian

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Quote from: BitCoinLoft on March 17, 2013, 02:49:53 PM

As long as mtgox (or any other xchange for that matter) do not breach laws, they cannot shut down them. DOJ is not almighty either.

Passing a law dealing with money is a trivial thing for those with a monopoly on currency, credit and force here in the good ol' US of A.

I have more faith in cooperation (networks) than I do in force (government) but we do have to be realistic about who we're dealing with. "Law" means nothing to government because they own it. Laws are only for us, not for them.

laughingbear

hero member

Activity: 622

Merit: 500

www.cryptobetfair.com

There is a huge difference between usd-btc exchanges and currency exchanges. btc-e does usd-rur and usd-eur. That is a big no-no. Exchanging between currencies with zero information about your customers is highly illegal, and it does not matter where they are located. I cant believe they haven't been shut down yet. It is only a matter of time.

Newscastix

sr. member

Activity: 349

Merit: 250

There is at least one exchange that cannot be shut down as easily as Mt. Gox:

https://localbitcoins.com

They can shut down the site but not the market itself. As decentralized as it gets.

BitCoinLoft

newbie

Activity: 45

Merit: 0

As long as mtgox (or any other xchange for that matter) do not breach laws, they cannot shut down them. DOJ is not almighty either. When they shut down fulltilt and almost did the same with pokerstars, these companies were explicitly vilotating the law. if a certain site allows us players to gamble with btc, it is mtgox that must ban the site. btc cannot just be declared ilegal and banned. the bottomline is that if there are lot of btc users, lot of xchanges, it will become almost impossible to stop btc. so ppl, just promote btc, do everything to help bitconomy. it is our right to have bitcoin.

mobile4ever

hero member

Activity: 546

Merit: 500

Quote from: solomon on March 17, 2013, 01:46:49 PM

We definately need many exchanges on every continent of the world to minimalize the impact of government shutdowns.

I agree. Bitcoin markets should be decentralized, just like bitcoin.

Severian

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Quote from: hazek on March 17, 2013, 11:44:59 AM

One scenario certainly is that just by intending to pass laws regulating Bitcoin they'd lend so much credibility to Bitcoin that it could easily explode to such a scale that would actually kill their mafia of psychopaths called the government, hence the window might have actually already closed for them.

That's my hope also, but we also have to keep the psychopathy in mind.

Psychopaths/sociopaths that have a powerbase have ultimate faith in their own abilities and believe themselves to be smarter than everyone else based on the simple logic of "I must be smarter than everyone else because I'm president/senator/Jamie Dimon/etc". When they're confronted with something they can't control via side channels, they'll regulate it outright. If they can't kill its market through regulation, they'll start disrupting the lives of people involved in making and moving the market, including confiscation of property, arrest and murder. In Bitcoin's case, this would be developers, large pool operators and publicly known holders of large stashes of btc.

We're still in the "control through side channels" period of contact with TPTB. Moving Gox to the US will give TPTB the ability to attempt to manipulate Bitcoin's price and keep it undervalued. If they can keep the price low they'll be protecting their own gold market, their own favorite manipulated physical asset. If this fails and the price can't be controlled, they might skip the regulation phase and just jump straight to the disruption stage.

moni3z

hero member

Activity: 899

Merit: 1002

Remember Ukash is forbidden to sell to Americans because their vouchers can be used for online gambling. Paysafecard sells a neutered version to americans that cant be used for gambling nobody accepts. Since there is no special bitcoin to prevent gambling its forever a risk of getting shut down when you deal with Americans.

solomon

full member

Activity: 120

Merit: 100

Quote from: laughingbear on March 17, 2013, 12:45:43 AM

btc-e would go first.

It's going now. Without any outside influence. Can hardly ever log in.

We definately need many exchanges on every continent of the world to minimalize the impact of government shutdowns. The way MTGOX currently dominates is a slight worry, as it creates a single point of faliure, but bitstamp is catching up for EU i think.

BTW these forums will be one of the first things to go down if bitcoin is made illegal.

Severian

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Quote from: Vince Torres on March 17, 2013, 12:39:09 AM

Serious question, if they would shut down pokerstars and megaupload for no reason other than someone lobbied or asked them to; what is stopping them from shutting down Mtgox?

Nothing. Wait until Gox is in the clutches of the US jurisdiction when Coinlab moves operations to US mainland.

It's my impression that some of the principals involved in moving Gox are naive about political processes and implications as well as basic history.

mobile4ever

hero member

Activity: 546

Merit: 500

Quote from: Vince Torres on March 17, 2013, 12:39:09 AM

Serious question, if they would shut down pokerstars and megaupload for no reason other than someone lobbied or asked them to; what is stopping them from shutting down Mtgox?

This is another reason why we need decentralized bitcoin markets. Shutting down one server
is easy for a lot of people, not just the "they" you are talking about. If we had decentralized
bitcoin markets our lives would be easier and bitcoin would grow around the world.

inge

sr. member

Activity: 298

Merit: 250

Quote from: hazek on March 17, 2013, 11:44:59 AM

There's a more than 3000 people queue of newly signed up users at mtgox waiting on just being able to verify their account. If they'd want to shut down mtgox, they couldn't do it on the pretense that they are currently breaking any laws. They'd have to pass new laws, and who knows how long that would take or what kind of consequences for Bitcoin and for them doing so in the first place could have. One scenario certainly is that just by intending to pass laws regulating Bitcoin they'd lend so much credibility to Bitcoin that it could easily explode to such a scale that would actually kill their mafia of psychopaths called the government, hence the window might have actually already closed for them.

We've been through the Trusted procedure of MtGox, they take this very serious. They will do all it takes to prevent legal prosecution. You can't just forbid trade.

I also expect there will be a corporate only Bitcoins exchange soon enough, excluding private people.
Like the trade in commercial Uranium or certain chemicals.

hazek

legendary

Activity: 1078

Merit: 1003

Quote from: Herodes on March 17, 2013, 09:58:08 AM

Quote from: Bitcoinpro on March 17, 2013, 07:40:11 AM

the window has closed for this

Could you elaborate please?

There's a more than 3000 people queue of newly signed up users at mtgox waiting on just being able to verify their account. If they'd want to shut down mtgox, they couldn't do it on the pretense that they are currently breaking any laws. They'd have to pass new laws, and who knows how long that would take or what kind of consequences for Bitcoin and for them doing so in the first place could have. One scenario certainly is that just by intending to pass laws regulating Bitcoin they'd lend so much credibility to Bitcoin that it could easily explode to such a scale that would actually kill their mafia of psychopaths called the government, hence the window might have actually already closed for them.

Herodes

hero member

Activity: 868

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Bitcoinpro on March 17, 2013, 07:40:11 AM

the window has closed for this

Could you elaborate please?

Bitcoinpro

legendary

Activity: 1344

Merit: 1000

the window has closed for this

odolvlobo

legendary

Activity: 4466

Merit: 3391

The SEC and FINRA are not all-powerful. They can't just go to Japan and shut down Mtgox.

Quote from: laughingbear on March 17, 2013, 12:45:43 AM

btc-e would go first.

My guess is that btc-e would go last. Eastern Europe is about as far from the clutches of the U.S. government as you can get (well I suppose China is further).

Raoul Duke

legendary

Activity: 1358

Merit: 1002

Quote from: laughingbear on March 17, 2013, 12:45:43 AM

btc-e would go first.

lolwut

Topic: What happens to BTC when Finra or the SEC shut down Mtgox for money laundering? - page 2. (Read 4356 times)