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Topic: What if MtGox makes good? (Read 3670 times)

legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1040
March 01, 2014, 03:44:45 AM
#50
WARNING: PURE SPECULATION

I'm changing my tune.  Yesterday I thought the 750,000 BTC figure was FUD to get certain Gox creditors to voluntarily accept 10 cents on the dollar for their GoxBTC.  The theory I'm leaning towards now is that the 750,000 BTC figure is true and Gox has indeed been operating as a fractional reserve.    

I agree this is the most plausible explanation.

There is another piece of evidence pointing in the same direction Im trying to dig up. A few weeks ago, well before Gox went down, someone posted that Mark K once said there was a "secret" that needed protecting, and if unveiled, would cause tremendous damage to bitcoin. It was not a direct quote, I cant find a direct quote, I dont recall who attributed it to Mark. Anyone remember reading anything along those lines?
member
Activity: 93
Merit: 10
February 27, 2014, 11:51:45 AM
#49
Doesn't matter if the bitcoins are lost or not - we could still get our money back and enrich all the exchanges and bitcoin in the process :

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/open-letter-to-mark-karpeles-voluntary-reorganization-best-option-for-us-all-489949  (Voluntary Reorganization Best Option for Us All)

https://www.facebook.com/pages/MtGox-Recovery-Initiative/1394428424158424
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000
February 27, 2014, 10:26:58 AM
#48
'What if MtGox makes good?'

Stop torturing yourselves.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
February 27, 2014, 10:20:20 AM
#47
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1z30q9/gox_has_at_least_50000_btc/

Its becoming more and more clear that they wasn't robbed but have somehow lost control of the private keys.

"they tried to consolidate 10 50k coins into one 500k coin, and ended up with 50k in change" https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/d3d753578c1043ce3755f097ce96cc2388a08738/src/test/wallet_tests.cpp#L208

This is the 50K change? Is it real? Is it spendable? Or is it a bug?

---

EDIT: Some more:

"That was MtGox trying to consolidate 10 50k coins into a single large 500k coin. The extra 50k was added by some code in the official client that is a little too careful to avoid sub-cent change."

https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/3287/what-is-the-largest-transaction-by-value-to-date-for-bitcoin-currency

I'm still not sure exactly what that means, though.

---

EDIT 1.5:

I think what it means is that they had a wallet with at least eleven 50K coins in it (maybe some other coins, maybe not), and they tried to pay themselves 500K BTC. Instead of using ten 50K coins and converting it into one 500K coin, it took eleven 50K coins and converted it into one 500K coin and one 50K coin.

In other words, the transaction is valid, and the change is valid. The bug was that the software used more coins than was necessary.

See https://gitorious.org/bitcoin/luke-jr-bitcoin/commit/e7199041ed68440d85bafd24155b3f9b98b7b94d

---

EDIT 2:

I bet they lost the private key on that 50K (BTC) coin - either permanently or it's sitting around somewhere waiting to be found.

Thanks for the very interesting link!

---

EDIT 3:

Very interesting implications if they claim to a bankruptcy court that they lost that 50K BTC coin. It'd be plausible (especially given that the coin in question was caused by a bug and nothing from that address has ever been spent), but unprovable. And what can you do if 2, 5, 10 years later suddenly the coin gets spent? Nothing, really.

I guess it'd be the same thing with cash, but it's significantly harder to embezzle $30,000,000 in hundred dollar bills. Even hiding cash is somewhat harder.
sr. member
Activity: 365
Merit: 250
February 27, 2014, 10:10:50 AM
#46
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1z30q9/gox_has_at_least_50000_btc/

Its becoming more and more clear that they wasn't robbed but have somehow lost control of the private keys.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
February 27, 2014, 09:42:13 AM
#45

Maybe you tracked the path wrong (i.e. one of those transfers in the path is a withdrawal)?


ehm...who is sending manually 100BTC or 200BTC packages ?...

I don't know, but apparently you think you do. (What makes you think the transfers were manual, and how is that relevant anyway?)

Do you think Gox made this transaction yesterday? They're still depositing BTC into cold storage? https://blockchain.info/tx/9ee728587d374b6e240ba0078a16eb2c2f932ba51635016c3fd52b466d261fd6
sr. member
Activity: 407
Merit: 250
February 27, 2014, 08:49:02 AM
#44
one thing i do not unterstand. I read at many sources that there are only 2000 BTC left.
But i have tracked the path of one deposit adress of gox in which i have deposited btc in dezember 2013. And the path is ending for example in this adress
https://blockchain.info/de/address/1FfdcppWbJ7FeQFznsjdLYNXdwMdoiTGSA
And there are over 10k btc...and this is only one adress.

This implies MtGOX has 10K btc and still lost 700K ?

no,

i said, if i know it right, gox had many cold storages...and this could be only one of those.... i think that the amount of only 2000 left btc is not true


Maybe you tracked the path wrong (i.e. one of those transfers in the path is a withdrawal)?


ehm...who is sending manually 100BTC or 200BTC packages ?...
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
February 27, 2014, 08:42:08 AM
#43
one thing i do not unterstand. I read at many sources that there are only 2000 BTC left.
But i have tracked the path of one deposit adress of gox in which i have deposited btc in dezember 2013. And the path is ending for example in this adress
https://blockchain.info/de/address/1FfdcppWbJ7FeQFznsjdLYNXdwMdoiTGSA
And there are over 10k btc...and this is only one adress.

Maybe you tracked the path wrong (i.e. one of those transfers in the path is a withdrawal)?
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1265
February 27, 2014, 08:39:57 AM
#42
one thing i do not unterstand. I read at many sources that there are only 2000 BTC left.
But i have tracked the path of one deposit adress of gox in which i have deposited btc in dezember 2013. And the path is ending for example in this adress
https://blockchain.info/de/address/1FfdcppWbJ7FeQFznsjdLYNXdwMdoiTGSA
And there are over 10k btc...and this is only one adress.

This implies MtGOX has 10K btc and still lost 700K ?
sr. member
Activity: 407
Merit: 250
February 27, 2014, 08:23:57 AM
#41
one thing i do not unterstand. I read at many sources that there are only 2000 BTC left.
But i have tracked the path of one deposit adress of gox in which i have deposited btc in dezember 2013. And the path is ending for example in this adress
https://blockchain.info/de/address/1FfdcppWbJ7FeQFznsjdLYNXdwMdoiTGSA
And there are over 10k btc...and this is only one adress.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
February 27, 2014, 06:36:11 AM
#40
Very good theory,  But if that's the case that will defiantly be consider a Ponzi Scheme, in which Mark, will be setting in prison for 15-25 Yrs, if process here in the US.

Yeah, if it's the case then it was a Ponzi scheme.

Oh shit, prepare for the headlines: "Jury to Determine if Bitcoin is a Ponzi Scheme". This is just the misinformation that the enemies of Bitcoin need.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 101
February 27, 2014, 04:16:11 AM
#39
What would they gain from being a fractional reserve  Huh

WARNING: PURE SPECULATION

I'm changing my tune.  Yesterday I thought the 750,000 BTC figure was FUD to get certain Gox creditors to voluntarily accept 10 cents on the dollar for their GoxBTC.  The theory I'm leaning towards now is that the 750,000 BTC figure is true and Gox has indeed been operating as a fraction reserve.    

The theory is that sometime in 2011--probably after the crash from $30 to $10--MtGox was lax with security and a group of thieves or hackers was able to steal about 500,000 to 1,000,000 BTC.  At the time, this only represented $10 million dollars.  

To avoid discrediting bitcoin and embarrassing himself, Mark pretended that nothing happened.  He knew that BTC withdrawals were roughly balanced by BTC deposits (typical fraction reserve banking) and he hoped to slowly earn back the bitcoins through trading fees.  

Meanwhile, the thieves worked to mix their coins with non-stolen coins and slowly sold them off, thereby driving the bitcoin price eventually to $2 later in the fall of 2011.  It was this extra selling pressure that continued through the remainder of 2011 and 2012 that kept the price of bitcoin artificially depressed.

Meanwhile MtGox was buying coins whenever it had spare cash.  But as the price of bitcoin exploded in the spring of 2013 they saw their liabilities in $ terms increase tremendously.  But at this point they had to keep going, even using customer deposit money to buy coins from other exchanges or individuals.

The problems at MtGox (probably due to extreme stress of MK) got worse, and MtGox lost market share, slowly dwindling down MtGox's small supply of coins.  

MtGox purposely mixed immature coins into withdrawal transactions, and later used the malleability excuses, all to buy time to somehow get more coins and make good on withdrawals.  

But eventually all hope was lost.  Their supply of coins dwindled down to 2,000 BTC while their bitcoin liability were a huge 750,000 BTC.  

And here we are today.  If this theory is correct, there are 750,000 less bitcoins in existence than what everyone thought.  




Very good theory,  But if that's the case that will defiantly be consider a Ponzi Scheme, in which Mark, will be setting in prison for 15-25 Yrs, if process here in the US.
legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050
Monero Core Team
February 27, 2014, 03:32:29 AM
#38
What would they gain from being a fractional reserve  Huh

WARNING: PURE SPECULATION

I'm changing my tune.  Yesterday I thought the 750,000 BTC figure was FUD to get certain Gox creditors to voluntarily accept 10 cents on the dollar for their GoxBTC.  The theory I'm leaning towards now is that the 750,000 BTC figure is true and Gox has indeed been operating as a fraction reserve.    

The theory is that sometime in 2011--probably after the crash from $30 to $10--MtGox was lax with security and a group of thieves or hackers was able to steal about 500,000 to 1,000,000 BTC.  At the time, this only represented $10 million dollars.  

To avoid discrediting bitcoin and embarrassing himself, Mark pretended that nothing happened.  He knew that BTC withdrawals were roughly balanced by BTC deposits (typical fraction reserve banking) and he hoped to slowly earn back the bitcoins through trading fees.  

Meanwhile, the thieves worked to mix their coins with non-stolen coins and slowly sold them off, thereby driving the bitcoin price eventually to $2 later in the fall of 2011.  It was this extra selling pressure that continued through the remainder of 2011 and 2012 that kept the price of bitcoin artificially depressed.

Meanwhile MtGox was buying coins whenever it had spare cash.  But as the price of bitcoin exploded in the spring of 2013 they saw their liabilities in $ terms increase tremendously.  But at this point they had to keep going, even using customer deposit money to buy coins from other exchanges or individuals.

The problems at MtGox (probably due to extreme stress of MK) got worse, and MtGox lost market share, slowly dwindling down MtGox's small supply of coins.  

MtGox purposely mixed immature coins into withdrawal transactions, and later used the malleability excuses, all to buy time to somehow get more coins and make good on withdrawals.  

But eventually all hope was lost.  Their supply of coins dwindled down to 2,000 BTC while their bitcoin liability were a huge 750,000 BTC.  

And here we are today.  If this theory is correct, there are 750,000 less bitcoins in existence than what everyone thought.  




It actually makes a lot of sense. It also explains why a lot of the problems with MTGox happened shortly after major increases in the BTC/USD rate as the "short squeeze" started to bite. The seizure of funds by the US Government, also provided the perfect cover by making the US Government the scapegoat for what was a BTC fractional reserve that was at the time blowing up due to an increase in the BTC/USD rate. 
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
Drunk Posts
February 27, 2014, 03:24:58 AM
#37
If they were lost that long ago, they should have been close to made up by trading feed by now.

750k / 0.6% = 125,000,000

Whats gox's total trade volume over the past couple years?
legendary
Activity: 2170
Merit: 1094
February 27, 2014, 03:17:59 AM
#36
Latest rumors say that the potential investors who were contacted by Karpeles were frightened by
the size of the mess at MtGox and they notified the authorities. I would expect Karpeles to be arrested on fraud charges.
newbie
Activity: 50
Merit: 0
February 27, 2014, 12:14:21 AM
#35

And here we are today.  If this theory is correct, there are 750,000 less bitcoins in existence than what everyone thought.  


I don't understand why your theory would equate to there being less Bitcoins than we thought.

There's also the possibility of the private keys to those coins being lost forever  Wink
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1035
February 27, 2014, 12:09:27 AM
#34
I don't understand why your theory would equate to there being less Bitcoins than we thought.

Neither did I, but he clarified this.
sr. member
Activity: 714
Merit: 250
February 27, 2014, 12:06:32 AM
#33

And here we are today.  If this theory is correct, there are 750,000 less bitcoins in existence than what everyone thought.  


I don't understand why your theory would equate to there being less Bitcoins than we thought.
sr. member
Activity: 321
Merit: 250
February 27, 2014, 12:05:56 AM
#32
Maybe they will make good, and are not such bad guys after all... at least in their intent.

There is an alternative theory that MtGox may have recently realized it cannot access their cold storage due to key mismanagement, technical glitch, or whatever.  In this scenario, they are probably frantically trying to guess passwords or otherwise fix the glitch.


more here:
http://letstalkbitcoin.com/somethings-not-right-at-gox/


To my mind, this theory matches up well with the known facts and statements.
newbie
Activity: 50
Merit: 0
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