What if they centralized Bitcoin? | Bitcointalksearch.org

ABCbits

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Quote from: legiteum on April 24, 2024, 08:29:48 AM

Quote from: ABCbits on April 24, 2024, 04:43:25 AM

No. While Bitcoin Core developer have big continuance, don't forget there are other Bitcoin full node software. Bitcoin mining industry also have become very big, so they'll make sure people know attempt to centralize Bitcoin (which remove miner).

Thank you. This is the best answer here so far, and the one that actually has a basis in business/politics rather than mythology and religion.

So in summary, Bitcoin's fate is determined by the miners, who make their money from mining, and they would never cut off their own business no matter what.

And while we're at it, it's worth to mention some Bitcoin Core developers got paid by multiple, but different cryptocurrency company[1]. So i expect some of them would disagree with idea to centralize Bitcoin due to various reason. For example, centralized Bitcoin (which offer fast and cheap TX) would kill Blockstream's Liquid Network.

[1] https://blog.bitmex.com/who-funds-bitcoin-development/

usekevin

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Quote from: Nrcewker on April 24, 2024, 08:34:09 AM

Bitcoins cannot be centralized. It is designed and operated through a decentralised network. Hence the only thing that can be done is to make it as a legal tender by the nations. But all the countries know that, they won’t be able to keep track of all the transactions, hence they not making it legal in many countries also. Bitcoin investors don’t give any attitude to these things. They are happy with the peer to peer transactions and are able to make the Bitcoins into cash in a decentralised manner.

The current state of bitcoin is the centralised one,many people use the non centralised behaviour of the bitcoin to make profit by buying the bitcoin at the dump and selling at the bull run.If all the countries around the world legalised the bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies help the bitcoin traders to make huge profit in the cryptocurrency trading.The reason for aiming to centralised bitcoin is to monitor the flow of bitcoin transactions among the users in their countries.The peer to peer becomes more easy on legalisation of bitcoin countries,easy to convert your bitcoin to fiat for the daily expenses.

Nothingtodo

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Assuming Bitcoin is a centralized currency then you can get exactly the same advantages/disadvantages that you are facing with other centralized currencies if Bitcoin is a centralized currency. Bitcoin is then controlled by a third party and any time the price explodes there will be a possibility of scamming the market.

legiteum

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Quote from: oktana on April 24, 2024, 04:36:36 PM

I’m not sure I still understand what we mean when we say Bitcoin is decentralized, care to remind me? Because I think you probably have a wrong understanding of what it means and hence you think that it can be made to be centralized. Matter of fact, I want to hear how this can be achieved, how Bitcoin can be centralized.

In the simplest terms, it would mean essentially one logical full-node, and that node not performing proof-of-work, but rather is the authority by virtue of its URL.

Rabbitqt

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Sorry to say, but BTC is already a centralized asset. Whether it's China controlling 60-70% of the mining power or top exchanges manipulating the market, BTC hasn't been truly decentralized for many years.

oktana

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Quote from: legiteum on April 22, 2024, 11:02:42 PM

Quote from: oktana on April 22, 2024, 04:33:38 PM

All you mention are facts, but it still doesn’t stop the major fact that Bitcoin is decentralized.

Well, Bitcoin is... whatever the core devs say it is. If they wanted to move Bitcoin to a centralized model, they could. It doesn't matter what it is today.

I’m not sure I still understand what we mean when we say Bitcoin is decentralized, care to remind me? Because I think you probably have a wrong understanding of what it means and hence you think that it can be made to be centralized. Matter of fact, I want to hear how this can be achieved, how Bitcoin can be centralized.

kentrolla

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I agree with each and every word you have mentioned about how Bitcoin has been reduced as a mere investment medium as users don't use it for P2P which was it's original purpose and even if they do it's through an centralized exchange as there are various factors like excellent ROI, higher transaction fee and time taken for transaction which has reduced it as an investment asset but it can never be centralized as anything which is based on proof of work cannot be centralized as they cannot own the miners throughout the world hence Bitcoin will never become centralized.

Dzwaafu11

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Quote from: btc78 on April 22, 2024, 11:12:04 AM

Even if bitcoin becomes centralized I am pretty sure there would be more altcoins being developed thanks to what we have learned from bitcoin’s network.

To me, I will no want bitcoin to become centralize either, because anything that will make bitcoin to be come centralize it will affect the smooth running of our cryptocurrency system which is not what we want. However, Bitcoin was program to be decentralize, it will be nice if it continue that and we don’t even talk about centralization because it will no help the currency in any way. Remember, it is because decentralization of bitcoin that is why up till now government haven’t get any hand in Bitcoin.

So, I want you to be aware that if Bitcoin get centralized today, Government will start keeping rules for Bitcoiners in any country that such happen, something like, Bitcoin investors should pay for tax and some other measure that will make some people to even withdraw their funds.

legiteum

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Quote from: Z-tight on April 24, 2024, 10:11:05 AM

You do not still get it, mining plays a huge part in the network, but BTC's fate is not determined by miners, there is no single point of failure and nobody alone determines what happens in the network. In this topic you have failed to understand that no one controls the network and the fate of BTC is determined by all of the community.

Yes, I get that it's determined by "the community", but in terms of actual power, Bitcoin is completely controlled by the miners. I understand that there's not a single miner, or even a group of miners who control Bitcoin, but anything a majority of miners wanted, no matter what it is, would simply happen if that's what they wanted to happen.

You could argue that the miners could vote to do something others wouldn't like, but that doesn't change the fact that they could (collectively) do anything they wanted.

Quote from: kryptqnick on April 24, 2024, 10:25:48 AM

Bitcoin is a symbol of freedom, and there's no freedom in a centralized digital currency. It's important that there's an option to keep Bitcoin in a non-custodial wallet, and that there's an option of taking part in mining. Take those options away, and you're left with a product that nobody wants because we already have fast custodial transactions with fiat.

Since almost all holders of Bitcoin these days do so with a centralized app or broker, you are talking about a very small percentage of people.

Most people like Bitcoin because Bitcoin goes up in value and produces them a profit. I really doubt they care about anything else.

And sovereign currencies aren't digitized, and credit card transactions require an exchange of personal information, so a digital currency, in any form, is a very significant value to the consumer.

kryptqnick

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I like thought experiments, and since they aren't supposed to be highly detailed or realistic, I'll take the conditions the op proposes without criticism.
If Bitcoin became fully centralized, in the sense of only custodial wallets (and of the same company, I suppose) existing, mining being abandoned, and potentially even some supply regulations, I think tons of people would abandon it very fast and it would die. Bitcoin is a symbol of freedom, and there's no freedom in a centralized digital currency. It's important that there's an option to keep Bitcoin in a non-custodial wallet, and that there's an option of taking part in mining. Take those options away, and you're left with a product that nobody wants because we already have fast custodial transactions with fiat.

Z-tight

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Quote from: legiteum on April 24, 2024, 08:29:48 AM

So in summary, Bitcoin's fate is determined by the miners, who make their money from mining, and they would never cut off their own business no matter what.

You do not still get it, mining plays a huge part in the network, but BTC's fate is not determined by miners, there is no single point of failure and nobody alone determines what happens in the network. In this topic you have failed to understand that no one controls the network and the fate of BTC is determined by all of the community.

Sim_card

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The creator of bitcoin made it decentralized and that is how it was designed, so there is no way that anyone can make it centralized, because nobody have power over the network. No matter how many investors keep their funds in exchanges and use bitcoin in a centralized way, bitcoin will still remain decentralized. Can you imagine a man turning himself into a woman because he is gay, that does not change the fact that he is a male,because all his organs will still be that of a male.

legiteum

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Quote from: Nrcewker on April 24, 2024, 08:34:09 AM

Bitcoins cannot be centralized. It is designed and operated through a decentralised network.

I'm proposing here that they change the design, so yes, it can certainly be decentralized if they change the software for Bitcoin.

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Hence the only thing that can be done is to make it as a legal tender by the nations.

We've discussed this in many threads here in the past few months: using the government for force Bitcoin down people's throats, as passing a legal tender law would mean, is immoral, impractical and foolish. If you want Bitcoin to be taken over by governments, make them pass a law giving it special privileges first.

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But all the countries know that, they won’t be able to keep track of all the transactions, [...]

Bitcoin has a public ledger, meaning everybody can keep track of all of the transactions, including governments.

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[...] hence they not making it legal in many countries also.

Bitcoin is legal to hold and trade is almost every country in the world, including China.

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Bitcoin investors don’t give any attitude to these things. They are happy with the peer to peer transactions and are able to make the Bitcoins into cash in a decentralised manner.

Most investors buy, sell and hold Bitcoin using an app or broker, which is centralized. Investors invest in Bitcoin because they think "Bitcoin"--whatever that even means--will go up in price so they can profit. Most of today's users of the Bitcoin product (e.g. as a speculation instrument) don't know or care what "decentralization" means.

Nrcewker

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Bitcoins cannot be centralized. It is designed and operated through a decentralised network. Hence the only thing that can be done is to make it as a legal tender by the nations. But all the countries know that, they won’t be able to keep track of all the transactions, hence they not making it legal in many countries also. Bitcoin investors don’t give any attitude to these things. They are happy with the peer to peer transactions and are able to make the Bitcoins into cash in a decentralised manner.

legiteum

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Quote from: BALIK on April 24, 2024, 03:39:07 AM

Do you think it would still be worth it if it became centralized? If it becomes centralized then it will no longer have community support, so how can it increase in price?

Why would it no longer have community support?

And making Bitcoin viable to be used as a mainstream payment mechanism would introduce the product to hundreds of millions more people on a daily basis. That would arguably increase the price.

Quote from: ABCbits on April 24, 2024, 04:43:25 AM

No. While Bitcoin Core developer have big continuance, don't forget there are other Bitcoin full node software. Bitcoin mining industry also have become very big, so they'll make sure people know attempt to centralize Bitcoin (which remove miner).

Thank you. This is the best answer here so far, and the one that actually has a basis in business/politics rather than mythology and religion.

So in summary, Bitcoin's fate is determined by the miners, who make their money from mining, and they would never cut off their own business no matter what.

ABCbits

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Quote from: legiteum on April 22, 2024, 10:43:00 AM

Imagine that one day, the core devs of Bitcoin would come to a consensus that:

--snip--

Could this happen? If not, why not?

No. While Bitcoin Core developer have big continuance, don't forget there are other Bitcoin full node software. Bitcoin mining industry also have become very big, so they'll make sure people know attempt to centralize Bitcoin (which remove miner).

Quote from: Z390 on April 23, 2024, 02:17:36 AM

Maybe the government should hunt down Nakamoto and force him to change some codes in the Bitcoin Network if possible, neutralizing the decentralized part and making it centralized, or the government should take over the whole mining hashrate and start attacking Bitcoin Network? I am just trying to give you what they could do. Unfortunately for them, it is impossible.

The community will just ignore code change proposed by Satoshi. And i don't expect government would spend money to buy mining hardware or rent hashrate when they have other more important stuff to do.

Z-tight

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Quote from: legiteum on April 22, 2024, 01:35:56 PM

If Bitcoin's core devs wanted to centralized Bitcoin, they could centralized Bitcoin. There's nothing stopping them.

You are missing the point here. BTC devs can do whatever they like, they can make a change and write a new code, but that does not mean everyone in the community is going to accept the change, and that is why BTC is decentralized and censorship resistant.

The community still has to agree to this new change and run the code in their own device. It can result in a hard fork and the community will decide which of the protocol they want to install and follow, just like what happened with the creation Bitcoin SV. So nobody can centralize BTC or arbitrarily change the code for everyone, the network does not have a single point of failure.

BALIK

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Quote from: legiteum on April 22, 2024, 11:02:42 PM

Quote from: BALIK on April 22, 2024, 10:36:15 PM

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What if they centralized Bitcoin?

Nothing will happen to bitcoin because bitcoin will never become centralized, I have never thought of this and believe this will never happen. Don't waste time making assumptions and scenarios that will never happen. Instead, focus on doing your job well, spending your time earning money to accumulate as many bitcoins as possible. Because as the price of bitcoin increases, everyone will enjoy the profits they make, while you continue to needlessly doubt the future of bitcoin.

But if all you care about is the price of Bitcoin going up, and centralizing it could vastly increase it's accessibility, and therefore greatly increase it's price, then why would you be against it?

And if there are billions of dollars to be made in Bitcoin if the price goes up, why would you assume this could never happen?

I'm not saying anything against or agreeing here, I'm just saying don't waste time thinking about things that will never happen. Bitcoin has become very popular and received great support from the community because it is decentralized, its decentralized nature makes it different and people love it for that. Do you think it would still be worth it if it became centralized? If it becomes centralized then it will no longer have community support, so how can it increase in price?

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Quote from: Z390 on April 23, 2024, 02:17:36 AM

Maybe the government should hunt down Nakamoto and force him to change some codes in the Bitcoin Network if possible, neutralizing the decentralized part and making it centralized, or the government should take over the whole mining hashrate and start attacking Bitcoin Network? I am just trying to give you what they could do. Unfortunately for them, it is impossible.

Even the government found Satoshi, I don't think he can change anything to make bitcoin centralized. He created bitcoin, it is open source and to change it requires consensus from the bitcoin community, no one can arbitrarily change bitcoin, not even its creator.

The government could take over the mining hashrate but this would cost a lot of money, time and this would not be commensurate with what they would get in return. So this possibility will not happen either.

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Quote from: BALIK on April 22, 2024, 10:36:15 PM

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What if they centralized Bitcoin?

Nothing will happen to bitcoin because bitcoin will never become centralized, I have never thought of this and believe this will never happen. Don't waste time making assumptions and scenarios that will never happen. Instead, focus on doing your job well, spending your time earning money to accumulate as many bitcoins as possible. Because as the price of bitcoin increases, everyone will enjoy the profits they make, while you continue to needlessly doubt the future of bitcoin.

Well this is just a normal thing to do and that's why no matter the assurance that Bitcoin gives people still have doubts about it but Bitcoin has really been something else and that's why I trust and believe it and moreover it's because of the way Bitcoin is decentralized that gives it all the attention in the crypto market more than the other coins. Bitcoin is something that no one control and that has been it's core value ever since so am very certain that it will keep on with that first impression by Satoshi Nakamoto.

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