What if you bought some of those stolen Mt Gox Bitcoins?

bitvestor

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Quote from: Edward50 on February 28, 2014, 06:42:50 PM

Sorry if this was discussed, but in USA if you buy stolen property and you are caught with it you have to return it to the original owner at your loss.

Now, lets say someone did steal the Mt Gox. Bitcoins, and then you bought some of them unknowingly.

If they could trace back through the blockchain that those bitcoins were indeed stolen Mt. Gox. coins, wouldn't they be able to take them back from you?

Did you find the hacker who stole Mt Gox bitcoins? How much is he selling them for?

soy

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Quote from: hensi on March 01, 2014, 05:07:09 AM

The stolen coins would be sold all over the world and it would be very difficult to trace down that where have his coins gone. it's not possible to get the stolen coins back.

Unless the 744408 btc + 2000 btc, were stolen by a single entity. If a botnet theft then those coins would sent to how many addresses? I think there's a problem for the thief of what to do with all those bitcoins. How many bank accounts would the thief need to cash out inconspicuously? Unless they were stolen by some huge shady gambling group with a propensity for breaking legs of anyone discomforting it. If if was some genius kid from Silicone Valley he likely chatted about an early exploit getting a few coins. Why hasn't a sizable reward been offered for the return of the coins? A reward could tempt a confederate of the thief to give him up.

gollum

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In Hashrate We Trust!

Quote from: Edward50 on February 28, 2014, 06:42:50 PM

Sorry if this was discussed, but in USA if you buy stolen property and you are caught with it you have to return it to the original owner at your loss.

Now, lets say someone did steal the Mt Gox. Bitcoins, and then you bought some of them unknowingly.

If they could trace back through the blockchain that those bitcoins were indeed stolen Mt. Gox. coins, wouldn't they be able to take them back from you?

Stolen money circulate in the economy, why should bitcoin behave differently?
As long as you did the trade in good faith you should keep your bitcoins even if they were stolen by the seller.
The thief should be punished, not you.

freebit13

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I got Satoshi's avatar!

Quote from: AnonyMint on March 02, 2014, 09:58:49 AM

Quote from: freebit13 on March 02, 2014, 08:25:31 AM

Wow, someone has a lot of 'internet time' on their hands...

I think you are making one major assumption here: that your public address can be linked to your ip when you make a payment... what if you use tor? What if coins are tumbled, using tor... could you still trace them... beyond the shadow of a doubt?

Why don't you try reading the two threads more carefully, since I refuted that point at least 3 or 4 times already.

Sigh Roll Eyes

Because your posts start with "imagine that..." and go on to "with that they can and will..." and I have more important things to do with my time... Sigh Roll Eyes

AnonyMint

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Signing off now.

AnonyMint

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Quote from: freebit13 on March 02, 2014, 08:25:31 AM

Wow, someone has a lot of 'internet time' on their hands...

I think you are making one major assumption here: that your public address can be linked to your ip when you make a payment... what if you use tor? What if coins are tumbled, using tor... could you still trace them... beyond the shadow of a doubt?

Why don't you try reading the two threads more carefully, since I refuted that point at least 3 or 4 times already.

Sigh Roll Eyes

Quote from: fluidjax on March 02, 2014, 08:54:16 AM

Quote from: AnonyMint on February 28, 2014, 09:10:08 PM

Incorrect. You had to transmit your public key to the sender who sent you BTC.

This guy claims a deep technical understanding and argues why Bitcoin is doomed to fail and yet demonstartes his total ignorance by clearly not understand the basics of Bitcoin... What a muppet... Ignored.

Quoting me out-of-context by eliding much of the quoted post (and pretending not to read my post that followed it), and then using that liar-method to claim I didn't understand something, is the epitome of beta-male chest thumping.

HorseCoin

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why not just buy Starbux stock. He obviously drinks a LOT of those

fluidjax

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Quote from: AnonyMint on February 28, 2014, 09:10:08 PM

Incorrect. You had to transmit your public key to the sender who sent you BTC.

This guy claims a deep technical understanding and argues why Bitcoin is doomed to fail and yet demonstartes his total ignorance by clearly not understanding the basics of Bitcoin... What a muppet... Ignored.

There are many things that will need to be settled in court before any cases can be finalised.
among other things..
Is Bitcoin property? Under English law I doubt it, therefore it cant even be stolen, just like you cant steal (Theft Act) electricity.
What jursidiction is relevant? The blockchain is everywhere, and you cant be sure where a transaction was made.
Bitcoin may only be psuedo anonymous, but law requires beyond reasonable doubt, which is a significant burden of proof, so proof of ownsership may be mostly impossible once coin has been moved from an address linked to a KYC check.

Its all a serious minefield for the lawyers (though im sure they'll love that)
Bitcoin specific convictions are a long way off, and a good defense lawyer will run rings around any prosecutions.

freebit13

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I got Satoshi's avatar!

Wow, someone has a lot of 'internet time' on their hands...

I think you are making one major assumption here: that your public address can be linked to your ip when you make a payment... what if you use tor? What if coins are tumbled, using tor... could you still trace them... beyond the shadow of a doubt?

conspirosphere.tk

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Bitcoin is antisemitic

Quote from: AnonyMint on March 01, 2014, 07:18:45 PM

Maybe you should have (sold BTC above $1000) purchased some gold at the $1150 low, since it has no traceable ledger.

no, but in my country (and i think in the US too) if you can't prove how you got something (or even how you got the funds to acquire it), it can be confiscated so even gold is not so intrinsecally safe in the NWO. But you have a point, so adding a layer of anonimity and untraceability to btc or just evolving to a specially designed cryptocoin sounds like a good idea.

btw, quote from:
http://www.centralbank.ie/publicinformation/Documents/EBA%20Warning%20on%20Virtual%20Currencies.pdf
formerly here:
http://www.eba.europa.eu/documents/10180/15971/EBA+Warning+on+Virtual+Currencies.pdf

Quote

law enforcement agencies may decide to close exchange platforms and prevent you from accessing or using any funds that the platforms may be holding for you

AnonyMint

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Quote from: BitcoinAutist on March 02, 2014, 05:14:35 AM

Quote from: AnonyMint on March 02, 2014, 04:42:44 AM

Btw, waterboarding is very effective.

Oh okay, so the US government is just going to waterboard the private keys out of anyone not willing to give them? Cheesy

I'm sure everyone is going to be just fine with that.

Quote from: AnonyMint on March 02, 2014, 04:42:44 AM

The government will get the assets. You highly underestimate the power of torture.

No I don't, but I think you higly overestimate the willingness of government to just start torturing people for interwebs money. People would just get the fuck out of the US if they started to torture their own citizens for trivial reasons like this. Or is every government around the world in on this "lets torture the shit out of people for bitcoins"-campaign? Cheesy

The Mad Max outcome is coming globally 2016ish. It is underway on schedule.

$150 trillion global debt, wrap your mind around the implications of that.

They won't waterboard Bitcoin paupers, they will just do something such as tax them to pay for the cost of restitution insurance.

SuperMax isolation (i.e. effectively torture) could be used for Bitcoin $millionaires who refuse to play nice with the gubrmint.

See this:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.5460181
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.5460285

BitcoinAutist

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Quote from: AnonyMint on March 02, 2014, 04:42:44 AM

Quote from: BitcoinAutist on March 02, 2014, 04:18:36 AM

Quote from: AnonyMint on March 01, 2014, 06:30:23 PM

Quote from: barwizi on March 01, 2014, 06:03:31 AM

4) gain access to my wallet
5) try to break my password, 215 characters
6) separate stolen from legitimate inputs

Not necessary. Just confiscate your real assets and auction them to recover the value stolen. Or garnish your wages.

So you are actually saying that they have no way to access the bitcoins?

I have not written that. I have instead cited the following link numerous times:

Well I can see that you are very good in citing links. So are you then saying that they have a way to crack 215 character password or..?

Quote from: AnonyMint on March 02, 2014, 04:42:44 AM

Btw, waterboarding is very effective.

Oh okay, so the US government is just going to waterboard the private keys out of anyone not willing to give them? Cheesy

I'm sure everyone is going to be just fine with that.

Quote from: AnonyMint on March 02, 2014, 04:42:44 AM

The government will get the assets. You highly underestimate the power of torture.

No I don't, but I think you higly overestimate the willingness of government to just start torturing people for interwebs money. People would just get the fuck out of the US if they started to torture their own citizens for trivial reasons like this. Or is every government around the world in on this "lets torture the shit out of people for bitcoins"-campaign? Cheesy

AnonyMint

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To the person that wrote I have anger mgmt issues (and then deleted his post) for telling that neophyte upthread to "STFU", it is because I got tired of repeating myself over and over again politely (in other threads also not just this one), only to find an endless stream of idiotic comments that never ceases.

I am generally not angry at people. I am smiling most of time Grin

AnonyMint

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Quote from: BitcoinAutist on March 02, 2014, 04:18:36 AM

Quote from: AnonyMint on March 01, 2014, 06:30:23 PM

Quote from: barwizi on March 01, 2014, 06:03:31 AM

4) gain access to my wallet
5) try to break my password, 215 characters
6) separate stolen from legitimate inputs

Not necessary. Just confiscate your real assets and auction them to recover the value stolen. Or garnish your wages.

So you are actually saying that they have no way to access the bitcoins?

I have not written that. I have instead cited the following link numerous times:

http://www.nestmann.com/could-the-government-force-you-to-tell-your-deepest-darkest-secrets

Quote from: BitcoinAutist on March 02, 2014, 04:18:36 AM

And if they are going after the rich bitcoiners, lets say with 100 million$ in BTC, who have most of their assets in bitcoins what are they going to do? Throw people in jail?

No they can compel them to give their private keys. Or they can simply declare those coins illegal and anyone who receives those coins in future, has committed a crime.

Btw, waterboarding is very effective.

Quote from: BitcoinAutist on March 02, 2014, 04:18:36 AM

That surely solves the debt-issue. Just throw people with assets, that the government can't access, to jail and wait for the economy to bloom. Cheesy

The government will get the assets. You highly underestimate the power of torture. Imagine being thrown in maximum security SuperMax prison dungeon with a cell smaller than a bathroom and you never see the light of day nor talk with anyone. Many commit suicide.

Also I did not write only about an attack on millionaires. I also suggested everyone could be forced to pay collectively with a tax on all Bitcoin exchange to/from fiat.

Quote from: BitcoinAutist on March 02, 2014, 04:18:36 AM

Also, why should people outside the US be afraid of US debt? Obviously the collapsing of US economy would have implications on the whole world, but I doubt anyone would be coming after my bitcoins.

The $150 trillion debt is all major countries. There are no exceptions.

http://www.gfmag.com/tools/global-database/economic-data/11855-total-debt-to-gdp.html#axzz2iu5C4Y4Z
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3902083

BitcoinAutist

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Quote from: AnonyMint on March 01, 2014, 06:30:23 PM

Quote from: barwizi on March 01, 2014, 06:03:31 AM

4) gain access to my wallet
5) try to break my password, 215 characters
6) separate stolen from legitimate inputs

Not necessary. Just confiscate your real assets and auction them to recover the value stolen. Or garnish your wages.

So you are actually saying that they have no way to access the bitcoins? And if they are going after the rich bitcoiners, lets say with 100 million$ in BTC, who have most of their assets in bitcoins what are they going to do? Throw people in jail? That surely solves the debt-issue. Just throw people with assets, that the government can't access, to jail and wait for the economy to bloom. Cheesy

Also, why should people outside the US be afraid of US debt? Obviously the collapsing of US economy would have implications on the whole world, but I doubt anyone would be coming after my bitcoins.

AnonyMint

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Quote from: flower1024 on March 02, 2014, 03:54:07 AM

This thread is comedy gold.

How to even proof that coins are stolen? We cant proof this even for mtgox Cheesy

Duh, like this.

Mt.Gox's coins are either lost (key), stolen, confiscated, or embezzled by Mark & Co.. We await the investigations.

flower1024

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This thread is comedy gold.

How to even proof that coins are stolen? We cant proof this even for mtgox Cheesy

AnonyMint

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Quote from: Littleshop on March 01, 2014, 09:56:47 PM

Quote from: AnonyMint on March 01, 2014, 05:10:13 AM

Quote from: FelixOliver on March 01, 2014, 05:04:51 AM

WOW... the lack of common sense is truly a sight to behold!

Quite simply, this WOULDN'T happen with cash - so therefore wouldn't happen with Bitcoin

....I don't see the confusion

Cash = legal tender.

Gold != legal tender

Gold can be confiscated if you buy it and it was stolen property.

Can't you read my prior post, or are you fucking blind?

Legal tender is given this protection, because the government provides consumer protection against theft, e.g. FDIC insurance, tracking down serial numbers on bills, chargebacks on credit cards, etc.. It is their racket, and so they give it is special status.

Since most gold gets melted and recombined over and over, and there is a lot of gold theft, is most gold subject to confiscation now as most gold contains some part that was stolen at some point?

Thanks for reaffirming my point that anonymity and untraceability are required if you want to avoid the law of Nemo dat quod non habet.

Gold, paintings, diamonds, etc can be confiscated when it can be proven that yours originated as stolen property.

With Bitcoin this is incredibly easy (for powerful entities such as the NSA + GCHQ) to prove because of the ledger which tracks the chain of ownership, and the lack of reliable anonymity against powerful entities. With gold it is not easy to prove.

AnonyMint

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Quote from: Vitamin on March 01, 2014, 09:17:21 PM

Quote from: Edward50 on February 28, 2014, 06:42:50 PM

Sorry if this was discussed, but in USA if you buy stolen property and you are caught with it you have to return it to the original owner at your loss.

This is utter bullshit. The person who stole it is responsible for all losses under US law.

For example, say I steal your credit card and buy a $2000 flat screen from Best Buy, but on my way home I get into an accident and the TV is destroyed. Once the the FBI catches me, it's MY responsibility to fork over the $2000 not Best Buy's.

Incorrect.

I guess you missed the relevant discussion.

Quote from: CoinCube on February 26, 2014, 08:52:36 AM

Failure to understand Bitcoin will indeed cost investors billions. 744,408 BTC stolen (nearly 7% of total mined coins to date) and some people seem to be cheering like this is a good thing because they don’t like (long despised) MtGox. This is far far from over. Where did those stolen coins go? Well check your wallet because they were likely fed back to the markets. If you have been buying bitcoins on any exchange chances are you have some of the stolen loot yourself. These stolen coins can be traced back to their true owner in a direct chain of title thanks to the block chain. If you don’t think this matters you don’t understand the legal system and the principle of Nemo dat quod non habet .

Under both American and English law the original owner of stolen property can demand ownership be returned to him if he can prove a chain of title (something the blockchain conveniently provides). The only recourse for an innocent buyer of stolen goods (and only in some jurisdictions) is to argue the exchange it was bought from had an implied warranty and he can try to sue the exchange after returning the coins to the true owner. MtGox is insolvent good luck there. BTC-e is run by anonymous folks think they will stick around in the face of massive lawsuits?

But cheer up there is still a chance most MtGox victims will get their coins back. The threat of massive unending lawsuits targeting innocent bitcoin buyers is an existential one for bitcoin. The 10-15 early adopters stand (by far) to lose the most if bitcoin goes down in flames. They might actually decide to buy out MtGox for the 744,408 bitcoins (an amount grossly exceeding the worth of the company) not because they are altruistic people, but because the chain of lawsuits that would follow if they don't act may hurt their holdings more than the loss of 744,408 bitcoins. It’s a lot of money, however, so its likely a difficult call for them. Regardless expect all future exchanges to require both rigorous identity checks prior to buying and selling as well as fine print stating that anyone who supplies coins to a market is ultimately responsible in the event those coins are determined to be “black” or stolen goods in the future.

Still think there is no need for truly anonymous cryptocurrency?

AnonyMint

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Quote from: barwizi on March 01, 2014, 09:09:01 PM

Irrelevant, the law has to establish a case for bitcoin, which means accepting it as legal tender, which then means, law starts then. Which will nevr happen.

The underlined quoted text is unadulterated nonsense.

Quote from: barwizi on March 01, 2014, 09:09:01 PM

Quote

Notwithstanding that the consensus is already controlled by a few mining pools, which can easily be expropriated by the government either overtly or covertly.

Unless D.O.D comes up with a new really good ASIC, then manages to overtake the network before we can notice and react. Which falls to consensus yet again, ant dev will just roll back, switch algos place some new checkpoints and we'll continue, right where we left off. They can hold their "bitcoins" which we either invalidate, or they become worthless because the community that gives them value, has moved on.

Hahaha what naive fool you are. I won't even bother to explain. Roll Eyes

Continue on in bliss boiling frog.

... rest of your nonsense not worth responding to...

Quote from: barwizi on March 01, 2014, 09:09:01 PM

I would not be surprised if new protocols and measures are introduced along with chain size reduction.

Hahaha, yeah the Bitcoin community is going to accept adding required strong anonymity to Bitcoin and the huge risk in change of legal status.

Just try. Wink

You will learn what inertia and vested interests are.

Topic: What if you bought some of those stolen Mt Gox Bitcoins? (Read 9170 times)