What is a Deterministic Wallet ? | Bitcointalksearch.org

Farmer17

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Quote from: BitCoinDream on May 03, 2014, 06:24:19 AM

Quote from: BunsenBurner on May 03, 2014, 12:11:28 AM

Quote from: odolvlobo on May 02, 2014, 01:11:31 PM

Quote from: BitCoinDream on May 02, 2014, 09:59:27 AM

Is it possible that the private key generated from a passphrase by a deterministic wallet, gets also generated by non-deterministic wallet from a random number ? I understand the negligibility of the collision chance factor. What I am trying to understand here is if it is theoretically feasible at all !!!

A collision is possible, but the range of values used for a wallet seed is so large that the chances of a collision is negligible -- assuming that the random number generator actually works well.

This.

For your info, seed used in Electrum is 128 bits, so there are a total of 2^128 possible choices of the seed.
Bitcoin address and private keys are 160 and 256 bits on the other hand.

Is it possible to have a collion? Yes, but the probability is extremely extremely extremely small.

Is electrum a deterministic wallet ?

AFAIK, Electrum is a deterministic wallet, and you can recover all your private keys with only the seed.

BitCoinDream

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Quote from: BunsenBurner on May 03, 2014, 12:11:28 AM

Quote from: odolvlobo on May 02, 2014, 01:11:31 PM

Quote from: BitCoinDream on May 02, 2014, 09:59:27 AM

Is it possible that the private key generated from a passphrase by a deterministic wallet, gets also generated by non-deterministic wallet from a random number ? I understand the negligibility of the collision chance factor. What I am trying to understand here is if it is theoretically feasible at all !!!

A collision is possible, but the range of values used for a wallet seed is so large that the chances of a collision is negligible -- assuming that the random number generator actually works well.

This.

For your info, seed used in Electrum is 128 bits, so there are a total of 2^128 possible choices of the seed.
Bitcoin address and private keys are 160 and 256 bits on the other hand.

Is it possible to have a collion? Yes, but the probability is extremely extremely extremely small.

Is electrum a deterministic wallet ?

BunsenBurner

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Quote from: odolvlobo on May 02, 2014, 01:11:31 PM

Quote from: BitCoinDream on May 02, 2014, 09:59:27 AM

Is it possible that the private key generated from a passphrase by a deterministic wallet, gets also generated by non-deterministic wallet from a random number ? I understand the negligibility of the collision chance factor. What I am trying to understand here is if it is theoretically feasible at all !!!

A collision is possible, but the range of values used for a wallet seed is so large that the chances of a collision is negligible -- assuming that the random number generator actually works well.

This.

For your info, seed used in Electrum is 128 bits, so there are a total of 2^128 possible choices of the seed.
Bitcoin address and private keys are 160 and 256 bits on the other hand.

Is it possible to have a collion? Yes, but the probability is extremely extremely extremely small.

odolvlobo

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Quote from: BitCoinDream on May 02, 2014, 09:59:27 AM

Is it possible that the private key generated from a passphrase by a deterministic wallet, gets also generated by non-deterministic wallet from a random number ? I understand the negligibility of the collision chance factor. What I am trying to understand here is if it is theoretically feasible at all !!!

A collision is possible, but the range of values used for a wallet seed is so large that the chances of a collision is negligible -- assuming that the random number generator actually works well.

BitCoinDream

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Quote from: DannyHamilton on May 01, 2014, 05:58:33 PM

Quote from: BitCoinDream on May 01, 2014, 11:10:55 AM

Then why blockchain.info gives us a 15-20 words meaningless sentence to note down for recovery ? If it is not the passphrase, then what is it ?

As someone else has already pointed out, blockchain.info uses a passphrase to encrypt the private keys after they generate them. This encryption prevents anyone else from seeing what your private keys are if they get access to your wallet.

If you lose access to your wallet, you will NOT be able to rebuild it from that list of words.

Thank you for the explanation.

Is it possible that the private key generated from a passphrase by a deterministic wallet, gets also generated by non-deterministic wallet from a random number ? I understand the negligibility of the collision chance factor. What I am trying to understand here is if it is theoretically feasible at all !!!

DannyHamilton

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Quote from: BitCoinDream on May 01, 2014, 11:10:55 AM

Then why blockchain.info gives us a 15-20 words meaningless sentence to note down for recovery ? If it is not the passphrase, then what is it ?

As someone else has already pointed out, blockchain.info uses a passphrase to encrypt the private keys after they generate them. This encryption prevents anyone else from seeing what your private keys are if they get access to your wallet.

If you lose access to your wallet, you will NOT be able to rebuild it from that list of words.

DannyHamilton

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Quote from: BitCoinDream on May 01, 2014, 11:13:24 AM

I'm just clearing out what I have understood. Say, u & me have created 2 different wallets on CarbonWallet. So our seeds will be different ...right ? By knowing my seed, one cant crack your wallet on CarbonWallet ...am I correct ?

I haven't seen the programming that CarbonWallet is using. They might even be a scam.

If they implemented a deterministic wallet properly, then you are correct.

edutBTC

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A deterministic wallet is any system which uses a passphrase or other snippet of data to build a keypair in a repeatable manner.

Lamigo

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Quote from: DannyHamilton on May 01, 2014, 08:51:14 AM

Quote from: BitCoinDream on May 01, 2014, 04:38:49 AM

Does it mean that all address/private key pair created on CarbonWallet by everyone can be cracked at a time ? Sorry, if it a meaningless question, but I'm a little confused about the use of deterministic wallet.

It means that knowing the seed for a CarbonWallet will allow you to "crack" all the addresses in that wallet.

Knowing the private key for a non-deterministic wallet address only allows you to "crack" that one address of which you know the key, and not the other addresses in the wallet.

non-deterministic
Every private key is completely random. Knowing anything about any one (or more) keys in the wallet does not make it any easier to gain access to any of the other addresses in the same wallet.

deterministic
The wallet seed is random. Every private key is generated from the seed using a repeatable process. Knowing the seed allows you to access EVERY address in the wallet.

The good thing about deterministic wallet is that you only need to remember or backup the seed (12 words in Electrum).
So, it is even possible that you can remember it in your mind.

Lamigo

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Quote from: BitCoinDream on May 01, 2014, 11:10:55 AM

Quote from: DannyHamilton on May 01, 2014, 08:44:31 AM

Quote from: BitCoinDream on April 30, 2014, 05:37:15 PM

- snip -
BlockChain.info private keys are also deried from a passaphrase, i.e. a seed !!!

No they are not. blockchain.info generates random private keys, and therefore random addresses. They are NOT derived from a passphrase.

Then why blockchain.info gives us a 15-20 words meaningless sentence to note down for recovery ? If it is not the passphrase, then what is it ?

On the service side of blockchain.info, it doesn't store your private keys, but it does store a encrypted copy of your private keys.
The identifier and password you used to log on the site (or the meaningless sentence) are used to decrypt the copy.

BitCoinDream

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Quote from: DannyHamilton on May 01, 2014, 08:51:14 AM

deterministic
The wallet seed is random. Every private key is generated from the seed using a repeatable process. Knowing the seed allows you to access EVERY address in the wallet.

I'm just clearing out what I have understood. Say, u & me have created 2 different wallets on CarbonWallet. So our seeds will be different ...right ? By knowing my seed, one cant crack your wallet on CarbonWallet ...am I correct ?

BitCoinDream

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Quote from: DannyHamilton on May 01, 2014, 08:44:31 AM

Quote from: BitCoinDream on April 30, 2014, 05:37:15 PM

- snip -
BlockChain.info private keys are also deried from a passaphrase, i.e. a seed !!!

No they are not. blockchain.info generates random private keys, and therefore random addresses. They are NOT derived from a passphrase.

Then why blockchain.info gives us a 15-20 words meaningless sentence to note down for recovery ? If it is not the passphrase, then what is it ?

DannyHamilton

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Quote from: BitCoinDream on May 01, 2014, 04:38:49 AM

Does it mean that all address/private key pair created on CarbonWallet by everyone can be cracked at a time ? Sorry, if it a meaningless question, but I'm a little confused about the use of deterministic wallet.

It means that knowing the seed for a CarbonWallet will allow you to "crack" all the addresses in that wallet.

Knowing the private key for a non-deterministic wallet address only allows you to "crack" that one address of which you know the key, and not the other addresses in the wallet.

non-deterministic
Every private key is completely random. Knowing anything about any one (or more) keys in the wallet does not make it any easier to gain access to any of the other addresses in the same wallet.

deterministic
The wallet seed is random. Every private key is generated from the seed using a repeatable process. Knowing the seed allows you to access EVERY address in the wallet.

DannyHamilton

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Quote from: scottsecret on May 01, 2014, 03:40:34 AM

so if I lose all the new addresses created for receiving unspent outputs ... those private keys are lost ? Or can I scan the full blockchain with my original private key and "reclaim" those transactions into a new wallet ?

Im talking about a regular non-determistic wallet.

If you lose the addresses, but you don't lose the private keys, then you can regenerate the addresses from the private keys and scan the blockchain to find all the outputs that are spendable with those private keys.

If you lose the private keys, then the bitcoins are not spendable until/unless you can find the lost private keys.

DannyHamilton

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Quote from: BitCoinDream on April 30, 2014, 05:37:15 PM

- snip -
BlockChain.info private keys are also deried from a passaphrase, i.e. a seed !!!

No they are not. blockchain.info generates random private keys, and therefore random addresses. They are NOT derived from a passphrase.

BitCoinDream

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Quote from: BigMac on May 01, 2014, 07:28:11 AM

Quote from: BitCoinDream on May 01, 2014, 04:38:49 AM

Quote from: odolvlobo on May 01, 2014, 03:23:19 AM

A "deterministic" wallet is one that generates all private keys from a starting value. The advantage is that you only have to back up the starting value and not every key you use. A non-deterministic wallet generates new private keys using random values (so called "entropy").

Blockchain.info is not a deterministic wallet (see https://blockchain.info/wallet/technical-faq)

Does it mean that all address/private key pair created on CarbonWallet by everyone can be cracked at a time ? Sorry, if it a meaningless question, but I'm a little confused about the use of deterministic wallet.

No.
All private keys in your wallet can be generated from a starting value, but every different wallets comes from a different starting value.

But, this is the case for every wallet. What is the speciality of deterministic wallet then ?

BigMac

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Quote from: BitCoinDream on May 01, 2014, 04:38:49 AM

Quote from: odolvlobo on May 01, 2014, 03:23:19 AM

A "deterministic" wallet is one that generates all private keys from a starting value. The advantage is that you only have to back up the starting value and not every key you use. A non-deterministic wallet generates new private keys using random values (so called "entropy").

Blockchain.info is not a deterministic wallet (see https://blockchain.info/wallet/technical-faq)

Does it mean that all address/private key pair created on CarbonWallet by everyone can be cracked at a time ? Sorry, if it a meaningless question, but I'm a little confused about the use of deterministic wallet.

No.
All private keys in your wallet can be generated from a starting value, but every different wallets comes from a different starting value.

BitCoinDream

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Quote from: odolvlobo on May 01, 2014, 03:23:19 AM

A "deterministic" wallet is one that generates all private keys from a starting value. The advantage is that you only have to back up the starting value and not every key you use. A non-deterministic wallet generates new private keys using random values (so called "entropy").

Blockchain.info is not a deterministic wallet (see https://blockchain.info/wallet/technical-faq)

Does it mean that all address/private key pair created on CarbonWallet by everyone can be cracked at a time ? Sorry, if it a meaningless question, but I'm a little confused about the use of deterministic wallet.

scottsecret

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so if I lose all the new addresses created for receiving unspent outputs ... those private keys are lost ? Or can I scan the full blockchain with my original private key and "reclaim" those transactions into a new wallet ?

Im talking about a regular non-determistic wallet.

odolvlobo

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A "deterministic" wallet is one that generates all private keys from a starting value. The advantage is that you only have to back up the starting value and not every key you use. A non-deterministic wallet generates new private keys using random values (so called "entropy").

Blockchain.info is not a deterministic wallet (see https://blockchain.info/wallet/technical-faq)

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