What is special for a currency | Bitcointalksearch.org

johnyj

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Beyond Imagination

Quote from: myrkul on May 14, 2013, 06:27:02 PM

Quote from: johnyj on May 14, 2013, 06:11:43 PM

So far

1. Easy to carry/transfer/store
2. Almost never perish
3. Universal equivalent (wide acceptance)
4. Tax free

Currency itself does not have any utility, but in fact the utility is the biggest of all goods/services because of its universal equivalent property. It actually has all the utilities

In order to have that universal equivalent property, it must be widely accepted by all the merchants/producers. For fiat money, this is done by law enforcement, but for other natural currencies, that wide acceptance would take a long time to develop

Here, let me save you a lot of time and trouble: http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Money

Good, these definitions especially the commodity money is easy to understand, different than the money wiki at wikipedia, where they use many different confusing abbreviations and terms (typically seen in a scam)

I still like to do the research by myself so that I can make more progress than books. Tax free for example is my discovery Wink

myrkul

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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Fun fact:

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: johnyj on May 14, 2013, 06:11:43 PM

So far

1. Easy to carry/transfer/store
2. Almost never perish
3. Universal equivalent (wide acceptance)
4. Tax free

Currency itself does not have any utility, but in fact the utility is the biggest of all goods/services because of its universal equivalent property. It actually has all the utilities

In order to have that universal equivalent property, it must be widely accepted by all the merchants/producers. For fiat money, this is done by law enforcement, but for other natural currencies, that wide acceptance would take a long time to develop

Here, let me save you a lot of time and trouble: http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Money

johnyj

legendary

Activity: 1988

Merit: 1012

Beyond Imagination

So far

1. Easy to carry/transfer/store
2. Almost never perish
3. Universal equivalent (wide acceptance)
4. Tax free

Currency itself does not have any utility, but in fact the utility is the biggest of all goods/services because of its universal equivalent property. It actually has all the utilities

In order to have that universal equivalent property, it must be widely accepted by all the merchants/producers. For fiat money, this is done by law enforcement, but for other natural currencies, that wide acceptance would take a long time to develop

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: kjj on May 12, 2013, 11:29:17 AM

Holy shit! John McCain is a time traveller! After learning that Iran was no longer exporting oil for dollars in December 2007, he travelled back in time to April 2007 to make a joke using a 27 year old song to warn them of the dire consequences of their decision.

Or maybe they had been considering doing that, making noises, as it were, for some time?
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CLA410A.html

kjj

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Quote from: myrkul on May 12, 2013, 11:10:04 AM

Quote from: kjj on May 12, 2013, 11:02:47 AM

I don't see any point in discussing this if you are just going to keep repeating your hypothesis.

P.S. You should really learn to search better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bomb_Iran

Quote

"Bomb Iran" gained a resurgence in notoriety in 2007 during John McCain's 2008 presidential campaign.

Iran has been in the crosshairs ever since.

Holy shit! John McCain is a time traveller! After learning that Iran was no longer exporting oil for dollars in December 2007, he travelled back in time to April 2007 to make a joke using a 27 year old song to warn them of the dire consequences of their decision.

myrkul

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Quote from: kjj on May 12, 2013, 11:02:47 AM

I don't see any point in discussing this if you are just going to keep repeating your hypothesis.

P.S. You should really learn to search better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bomb_Iran

Quote

"Bomb Iran" gained a resurgence in notoriety in 2007 during John McCain's 2008 presidential campaign.

Iran has been in the crosshairs ever since.

kjj

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Activity: 1302

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I don't see any point in discussing this if you are just going to keep repeating your hypothesis.

P.S. You should really learn to search better.

myrkul

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Activity: 532

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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: kjj on May 12, 2013, 08:46:29 AM

Quote from: myrkul on May 12, 2013, 01:08:48 AM

Quote from: kjj on May 12, 2013, 12:48:20 AM

No one holds a FOREX currency against their will.

No, they don't. But if you could buy oil in anything other than Dollars, would there be as much transactional demand for Dollars? And don't forget the black market uses. So much of the Dollar is held, used and exchanged overseas, supported largely by the petrodollar and the might of the US military, that it makes the domestic supply pale in comparison.

Well, let me start by saying that people can buy oil with things other than dollars, and have been able to for about 5 years. Over that period, the dollar index has grown higher and less volatile.

Next, black market uses are about as close to free market as you can get. People operating illegally are already doing so under the threat of violence, so I can't see how the US could coerce them into using the dollar against their will. I'm forced to conclude that they use dollars because dollars are the most useful to them.

Your third point is just a restatement of your conclusion. You don't win arguments by repeatedly asserting what you want to be true.

Why do people use the Dollar in black market exchanges?
Because it is accepted everywhere.
Why is it accepted everywhere?
Because you have to have them, if you want oil, and everyone needs oil.
Why do you have to have them if you need oil?
Because oil is only sold in Dollars.
Why is oil only sold in Dollars?
Because the US Military blows the shit out of every country who tries to change that.

The only reference I found to oil being sold in any other currency is an article from 6 months ago about China starting to sell oil in Yuan. And guess what I saw in that article:

Quote

Since Sept. 6, the U.S. dollar has fallen from 81.467 on the index to today's price of 79.73. While analysts will focus on actions taking place in the Eurozone, and expected easing signals from the Federal Reserve on Thursday regarding the fall of the dollar, it is not coincidence that the dollar began to lose strength on the very day of China's announcement.

Two options unfold from this: 1, WW3. 2, The fall of the Dollar economy.

Get ready for some serious shit.

kjj

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Quote from: myrkul on May 12, 2013, 01:08:48 AM

Quote from: kjj on May 12, 2013, 12:48:20 AM

No one holds a FOREX currency against their will.

No, they don't. But if you could buy oil in anything other than Dollars, would there be as much transactional demand for Dollars? And don't forget the black market uses. So much of the Dollar is held, used and exchanged overseas, supported largely by the petrodollar and the might of the US military, that it makes the domestic supply pale in comparison.

Well, let me start by saying that people can buy oil with things other than dollars, and have been able to for about 5 years. Over that period, the dollar index has grown higher and less volatile.

Next, black market uses are about as close to free market as you can get. People operating illegally are already doing so under the threat of violence, so I can't see how the US could coerce them into using the dollar against their will. I'm forced to conclude that they use dollars because dollars are the most useful to them.

Your third point is just a restatement of your conclusion. You don't win arguments by repeatedly asserting what you want to be true.

myrkul

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Quote from: kjj on May 12, 2013, 12:48:20 AM

No one holds a FOREX currency against their will.

No, they don't. But if you could buy oil in anything other than Dollars, would there be as much transactional demand for Dollars? And don't forget the black market uses. So much of the Dollar is held, used and exchanged overseas, supported largely by the petrodollar and the might of the US military, that it makes the domestic supply pale in comparison.

kjj

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Merit: 1026

Quote from: myrkul on May 12, 2013, 12:24:48 AM

Quote from: kjj on May 12, 2013, 12:21:04 AM

Quote from: myrkul on May 11, 2013, 11:03:48 PM

Quote from: kjj on May 11, 2013, 10:43:23 PM

To take it seriously, you have to imagine that oil producers are using dollars as garden mulch because they aren't aware that there is a global market that will instantly and for very low cost exchange them for whatever currency they actually want to be holding.

Yup, they sell those Dollars right back to the countries that just bought oil from them, and then use those currencies to buy imports, or use the Dollars directly to buy imports from the US... which of course benefits the US as well.

Doesn't sound so sinister when you realize that the dollars go to some guy in Ohio selling wheat, huh?

Ends don't justify the means.

I agree with that. Where we disagree is that you think there is some "means" going on which needs to be justified, when clearly there is not, despite what dozens of bloggers and other quacks say.

Consider bitcoin. Say you want to accept bitcoin as payment, but don't want to hold it, what happens? You sell those bitcoins on an exchange, to someone that does want to hold them. Say your buyer also just wants to use bitcoin as a payment method, but thinks it is too risky to hold. Where do they get them? They buy them on an exchange. The net effect is that all of the value of bitcoins come from people wanting to hold them.

There is some friction involved, in that it takes effort and fees to move dollars (or whatever) into or out of the exchange, but FOREX has very little friction. No one holds a FOREX currency against their will.

myrkul

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Quote from: kjj on May 12, 2013, 12:21:04 AM

Quote from: myrkul on May 11, 2013, 11:03:48 PM

Quote from: kjj on May 11, 2013, 10:43:23 PM

To take it seriously, you have to imagine that oil producers are using dollars as garden mulch because they aren't aware that there is a global market that will instantly and for very low cost exchange them for whatever currency they actually want to be holding.

Yup, they sell those Dollars right back to the countries that just bought oil from them, and then use those currencies to buy imports, or use the Dollars directly to buy imports from the US... which of course benefits the US as well.

Doesn't sound so sinister when you realize that the dollars go to some guy in Ohio selling wheat, huh?

Ends don't justify the means.

kjj

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Activity: 1302

Merit: 1026

Quote from: myrkul on May 11, 2013, 11:03:48 PM

Quote from: kjj on May 11, 2013, 10:43:23 PM

To take it seriously, you have to imagine that oil producers are using dollars as garden mulch because they aren't aware that there is a global market that will instantly and for very low cost exchange them for whatever currency they actually want to be holding.

Yup, they sell those Dollars right back to the countries that just bought oil from them, and then use those currencies to buy imports, or use the Dollars directly to buy imports from the US... which of course benefits the US as well.

Doesn't sound so sinister when you realize that the dollars go to some guy in Ohio selling wheat, huh?

myrkul

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Activity: 532

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Quote from: johnyj on May 11, 2013, 11:55:26 PM

Quote from: myrkul on May 11, 2013, 08:01:06 PM

Quote from: johnyj on May 11, 2013, 07:49:35 PM

Due to the special character of currency, the supply and demand curve for currency is very different than any other goods/services

The USD is supported by GOD:
Guns, Oil, and Drugs.

The US military (Guns) blows the shit out of any country that looks to be shifting away from the dollar for sale of Oil, and it's the currency of choice for black markets (Drugs) the world around. That creates, and maintains, an additional demand for the Dollar that keeps it's price from reflecting the supply.

If you include the international trade, it becomes more complex. USD has strong demand at many places in the world, due to US's role of de facto world police, that also make it inflation immune.

Guns.

johnyj

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Quote from: myrkul on May 11, 2013, 09:42:11 PM

You can't buy oil on FOREX.
And since the Dollar is the only currency you can use to buy oil, and every country needs oil, every country needs Dollars.

You can't buy Avalon with USD Cheesy

This is another special character of currency, by only accepting one currency for exchange of one hot goods/service, you could direct the wealth flow into this specific currency

johnyj

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Beyond Imagination

Quote from: myrkul on May 11, 2013, 08:01:06 PM

Quote from: johnyj on May 11, 2013, 07:49:35 PM

Due to the special character of currency, the supply and demand curve for currency is very different than any other goods/services

The USD is supported by GOD:
Guns, Oil, and Drugs.

The US military (Guns) blows the shit out of any country that looks to be shifting away from the dollar for sale of Oil, and it's the currency of choice for black markets (Drugs) the world around. That creates, and maintains, an additional demand for the Dollar that keeps it's price from reflecting the supply.

If you include the international trade, it becomes more complex. USD has strong demand at many places in the world, due to US's role of de facto world police, that also make it inflation immune. But for now don't push the topic into too complex context, anyway most of the other countries do not benefit from such a position

myrkul

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Quote from: kjj on May 11, 2013, 10:43:23 PM

To take it seriously, you have to imagine that oil producers are using dollars as garden mulch because they aren't aware that there is a global market that will instantly and for very low cost exchange them for whatever currency they actually want to be holding.

Yup, they sell those Dollars right back to the countries that just bought oil from them, and then use those currencies to buy imports, or use the Dollars directly to buy imports from the US... which of course benefits the US as well.

kjj

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Quote from: myrkul on May 11, 2013, 09:42:11 PM

Quote from: kjj on May 11, 2013, 09:21:47 PM

If you want oil, you can use whatever currency you have to buy dollars on FOREX, use them to buy oil a millisecond later, and the seller can then dump them for whatever currency they want (again on FOREX) a millisecond later.

Maybe you missed it before.
You can't buy oil on FOREX.
And since the Dollar is the only currency you can use to buy oil, and every country needs oil, every country needs Dollars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar_warfare

No, I didn't miss it. I just don't see the point. I'm well aware of what you can and can't trade through FOREX. You can't buy food on FOREX either. So what?

Just because this crank theory is popular enough to have a wikipedia page, doesn't make it true.

Here is the flow:

1a. Hans has Euros and wants oil.
1b. Ivan has oil and wants Rubles.
1c. Nameless other people (aka, "the market") hold Dollars, Euros, Rubles, etc and are willing to trade.
2. Hans sells Euros (on FOREX) to the market, gets Dollars.
3. Hans buys oil (not on FOREX), from Ivan, using Dollars.
4. Ivan sells Dollars (on FOREX) to the market, gets Rubles.
5. Everyone is happy.

Net demand for Euros: down
Net demand for Rubles: up
Net demand for Dollars: no change

The petrodollar theory pretends that step 4 never happens. To take it seriously, you have to imagine that oil producers are using dollars as garden mulch because they aren't aware that there is a global market that will instantly and for very low cost exchange them for whatever currency they actually want to be holding.

myrkul

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Quote from: kjj on May 11, 2013, 09:21:47 PM

If you want oil, you can use whatever currency you have to buy dollars on FOREX, use them to buy oil a millisecond later, and the seller can then dump them for whatever currency they want (again on FOREX) a millisecond later.

Maybe you missed it before.
You can't buy oil on FOREX.
And since the Dollar is the only currency you can use to buy oil, and every country needs oil, every country needs Dollars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar_warfare

Topic: What is special for a currency (Read 2638 times)