Pages:
Author

Topic: What is the acceptable level of premine for bounties? (Read 1787 times)

full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
I love how people make up these arbitrary numbers as though there were any real rationale behind them. "I John Doe hereby decree that anyone who makes a coin is entitled to 1/10 of a percent of the coin cap. No more, no less. This is my will and you must obey."

Right.
member
Activity: 85
Merit: 10
Well I don't think anyone is arguing that scammers should be rewarded but unfortunately it's not always so easy to tell which coins are going to be straight up scams and/or which coins are going to be abandoned early by the devs.

You forget about the magic powers of hindsight. Smiley

Depending on what the coin dev wants to develop. If just for his/her own bounties, 0.1% will be fair.

If there is a real and good business plan to promote and maintain a coin, 5% still can be acceptable.
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
Well I don't think anyone is arguing that scammers should be rewarded but unfortunately it's not always so easy to tell which coins are going to be straight up scams and/or which coins are going to be abandoned early by the devs.

You forget about the magic powers of hindsight. Smiley
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100

News flash: there are no rules. If you don't like pre-mines, then you don't have to support those coins. Only problem is all you retards love btc and that was pre-mined like a motherfucker so you're basically a bunch of whining hypocrites.

Look I'm not a dev I just think it's insane that you people consider it somehow wrong or evil for a developer to want a return on something they built if it becomes successful. Are you all fucking socialists or something? I guess I just grew up with this silly notion that if someone creates something and it becomes successful, then they should get a good chunk of profit from that. Crazy me!

Satoshi is not a scammer, he created a new coin from scratch.

its a fact that 99.99% of altcoins are scams or clones of incompetence that just survive with marketing and their sock puppets.

The real devs (0.01%) who know their stuff deserve to be rewarded for their efforts but not those who make this wave of shitcoins.

Well I don't think anyone is arguing that scammers should be rewarded but unfortunately it's not always so easy to tell which coins are going to be straight up scams and/or which coins are going to be abandoned early by the devs. And sometimes, a coin is abandoned not because it was a scam all along, but simply because the dev got frustrated that it wasn't taking off, or he was just in over his head.

I don't think percentage of premine, or the fact that a pre-mine occurred, is a valid criteria to assess whether a coin is a scamcoin or not.

Case in point - look at flappy coin. This was most definitely NOT a scam. The dev did not pre-mine and there is a massive community around it. But yet the dev basically disappeared/gave up and the coin shot down to near-death over a period of weeks. So, the fact that there is no pre-mine really doesn't tell you whether a coin is going to suck and/or be abandoned.

(As an aside, a new dev has taken over flappy and is trying to breathe life back into it.)
newbie
Activity: 11
Merit: 0

Bingo.  Even if person premined 50% and he created alot of value everybody wins. Also each person can decide what is acceptable for him/her Smiley


Thanks for the replies. Concesus is 0% premine . Now my next question is how do you determine when a coin has had a fair launch? If he posts it on a crypto forum? Does it need a pre anouncement? Does he have to post it on btcointalk? or are a few other smaller forums are all thats needed?
A coin has had a fair launch when the value goes to the people who created that value. If a coin doesn't involve the creation of any value at all, then all distributions are equally fair. You can't unfairly divide a zero. The early Bitcoin miners created the value they gained from their mining by making Bitcoin secure and usable.

The focus in the crypto-currency community on *dividing* value rather than *creating* value is disturbing to me.
member
Activity: 61
Merit: 10

News flash: there are no rules. If you don't like pre-mines, then you don't have to support those coins. Only problem is all you retards love btc and that was pre-mined like a motherfucker so you're basically a bunch of whining hypocrites.

Look I'm not a dev I just think it's insane that you people consider it somehow wrong or evil for a developer to want a return on something they built if it becomes successful. Are you all fucking socialists or something? I guess I just grew up with this silly notion that if someone creates something and it becomes successful, then they should get a good chunk of profit from that. Crazy me!

Satoshi is not a scammer, he created a new coin from scratch.

its a fact that 99.99% of altcoins are scams or clones of incompetence that just survive with marketing and their sock puppets.

The real devs (0.01%) who know their stuff deserve to be rewarded for their efforts but not those who make this wave of shitcoins.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
Understanding that good dev should be rewarded, why not instead of creating a premine, having a %tage of the reward of each block sent to the dev ?
I would be completely on board for something like that. But how would you stop them from continuing to collect payments if they just walked away from the coin? Carboncoin, flappy, stories, NYCoin, and like a million others right now are dealing with replacing the devs as the original ones disappeared or just effectively stopped working.
Einsteinium have this. 2% sent to a fund and 0.5% sent to the devs of every block mined


legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
Thanks for the replies. Concesus is 0% premine . Now my next question is how do you determine when a coin has had a fair launch? If he posts it on a crypto forum? Does it need a pre anouncement? Does he have to post it on btcointalk? or are a few other smaller forums are all thats needed?
A coin has had a fair launch when the value goes to the people who created that value. If a coin doesn't involve the creation of any value at all, then all distributions are equally fair. You can't unfairly divide a zero. The early Bitcoin miners created the value they gained from their mining by making Bitcoin secure and usable.

The focus in the crypto-currency community on *dividing* value rather than *creating* value is disturbing to me.

And depressing to me. We always, always have to re-learn the same lesson the hard way: "fair" distributions always create a tragedy of the commons. That's why the "free and fair" fad will fade.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
Also, it is worth considering that the current environment - one of hostility toward devs making any kind of a profit - is not terribly conducive to drawing talented individuals into the crypto world. How do you think Apple and Google recruit the best programmers? By promising them sunshine and rainbows and a chance to break their back making the world a better place for free? Um, no. It's called a massive paycheck.
member
Activity: 109
Merit: 35
It's really funny to me to see all these replies that are like OMG OMG NO THAT'S BS! NO PREMINE! So far, the general argument is that they should not do pre-mines because they should just do it for free. Some douche even compared it to 'charity work' which was a real laugh for me.

News flash: there are no rules. If you don't like pre-mines, then you don't have to support those coins. Only problem is all you retards love btc and that was pre-mined like a motherfucker so you're basically a bunch of whining hypocrites.

Look I'm not a dev I just think it's insane that you people consider it somehow wrong or evil for a developer to want a return on something they built if it becomes successful. Are you all fucking socialists or something? I guess I just grew up with this silly notion that if someone creates something and it becomes successful, then they should get a good chunk of profit from that. Crazy me!

Also, if you notice, a lot of 'no pre-mine' coins were manipulated in some other way - either by instamining, or somewhat shady launch tactics enabling the dev and/or his friends to quickly mine some early blocks before the general population can begin, or even manipulating the price down and encouraging an early crash so the dev can buy in for pennies.

Just think about this logically for a second - if the developer has no vested interest in seeing the coin succeed and grow in value, how long is he going to hang around and keep fixing issues and supporting the coin?

VERY well said, dude.

As for the guy who said a coin should be treated like a charity.... what fucking planet is he from!?! It's like suggesting that all miners donate all their mined coins to a charity fund. We all know how likely that is to happen...

I just don't understand why miners think it's their god-given right to reap the rewards of somebody else's time, hard work and innovation. 
full member
Activity: 673
Merit: 105
Understanding that good dev should be rewarded, why not instead of creating a premine, having a %tage of the reward of each block sent to the dev ?

I would be completely on board for something like that. But how would you stop them from continuing to collect payments if they just walked away from the coin? Carboncoin, flappy, stories, NYCoin, and like a million others right now are dealing with replacing the devs as the original ones disappeared or just effectively stopped working.

Well I will add to this, I am also doing pro-bono work for two other coins because their devs disappeared, I have 0 vested interest no coins even, they were in terrible situation no available source codes straightening out their github, provide free server support on Marinecoin cloud servers, seed nodes etc and giving free advice are also what I do, the major problem is that average dev in this community is an a**hole. This needs to change.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
Understanding that good dev should be rewarded, why not instead of creating a premine, having a %tage of the reward of each block sent to the dev ?

I would be completely on board for something like that. But how would you stop them from continuing to collect payments if they just walked away from the coin? Carboncoin, flappy, stories, NYCoin, and like a million others right now are dealing with replacing the devs as the original ones disappeared or just effectively stopped working.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1050
Understanding that good dev should be rewarded, why not instead of creating a premine, having a %tage of the reward of each block sent to the dev ?
legendary
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1084
That's a very good idea but has to be hard coded in to the client, very good. it must be in such a way that even the pools modify their code the peer2peer network would reject the solved blocks by the dishonest pools.

Right hard coded.  It would probably require that it is paid to the public key of the dev.

The point is that there is nothing stopping some other dev from forking the coin to one with no payout.  Users would have to decide which branch to support.

If the paid dev is doing a good job, they might decide to stay on the paying branch.
full member
Activity: 673
Merit: 105
It's really funny to me to see all these replies that are like OMG OMG NO THAT'S BS! NO PREMINE! So far, the general argument is that they should not do pre-mines because they should just do it for free. Some douche even compared it to 'charity work' which was a real laugh for me.

News flash: there are no rules. If you don't like pre-mines, then you don't have to support those coins. Only problem is all you retards love btc and that was pre-mined like a motherfucker so you're basically a bunch of whining hypocrites.

Look I'm not a dev I just think it's insane that you people consider it somehow wrong or evil for a developer to want a return on something they built if it becomes successful. Are you all fucking socialists or something? I guess I just grew up with this silly notion that if someone creates something and it becomes successful, then they should get a good chunk of profit from that. Crazy me!

Also, if you notice, a lot of 'no pre-mine' coins were manipulated in some other way - either by instamining, or somewhat shady launch tactics enabling the dev and/or his friends to quickly mine some early blocks before the general population can begin, or even manipulating the price down and encouraging an early crash so the dev can buy in for pennies.

Just think about this logically for a second - if the developer has no vested interest in seeing the coin succeed and grow in value, how long is he going to hang around and keep fixing issues and supporting the coin?

I am the developer of Marinecoin so far I can safely say I spent over 100 BTC out of my own pocket, buy hey who is counting.
I am about to move Marinecoin into an office, because my wife is finally kicking me out of the house, pay rent hiring two programmers for extra help paid of course with real salary and a secretary, mninum requirements for now.
Running banners over the internet, constant code upgrades to the wallet and other projects that I am working on. with 4-5 hours of sleep a day the past 6 months just working on the Marinecoin project..
I paid over 10 BTC just last week to outsource mining hash power to get Marinecoin out of a difficulty spike.

I am fortunate enough to pay those things out my pocket, but to pay for them indefinitely without any support from the eco-system itself eventually should be considered insane.

Marinecoin Dev
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 6249
Decentralization Maximalist
I would accept coins with a premine of less than 0,1% in the case of coins with fixed cap, and 0,05% of the estimated supply after 1 year in case of coins with no fixed cap (e.g. PoW/PoS hybrids). 1% is way too much in my opinion (think of a multi-million market cap at bubbles), but I would not only accept 0.0000000%-premined coins.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
It's really funny to me to see all these replies that are like OMG OMG NO THAT'S BS! NO PREMINE! So far, the general argument is that they should not do pre-mines because they should just do it for free. Some douche even compared it to 'charity work' which was a real laugh for me.

News flash: there are no rules. If you don't like pre-mines, then you don't have to support those coins. Only problem is all you retards love btc and that was pre-mined like a motherfucker so you're basically a bunch of whining hypocrites.

Look I'm not a dev I just think it's insane that you people consider it somehow wrong or evil for a developer to want a return on something they built if it becomes successful. Are you all fucking socialists or something? I guess I just grew up with this silly notion that if someone creates something and it becomes successful, then they should get a good chunk of profit from that. Crazy me!

Also, if you notice, a lot of 'no pre-mine' coins were manipulated in some other way - either by instamining, or somewhat shady launch tactics enabling the dev and/or his friends to quickly mine some early blocks before the general population can begin, or even manipulating the price down and encouraging an early crash so the dev can buy in for pennies.

Just think about this logically for a second - if the developer has no vested interest in seeing the coin succeed and grow in value, how long is he going to hang around and keep fixing issues and supporting the coin?
full member
Activity: 673
Merit: 105
Of course you would say that. And it's usually the opposite. They dump the coins they premined and move on to the next shitcoin.

Having x% of the minting fee going to the original dev would create the right incentives.  The more successful the coin, the more valuable that 1%.

You could even set it up so that it is 1% starting 3 months from launch.  If another dev creates a modified client, then it shows that the 1% wasn't really needed in the first place.

That's a very good idea but has to be hard coded in to the client, very good. it must be in such a way that even the pools modify their code the peer2peer network would reject the solved blocks by the dishonest pools.

+1
legendary
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1084
Of course you would say that. And it's usually the opposite. They dump the coins they premined and move on to the next shitcoin.

Having x% of the minting fee going to the original dev would create the right incentives.  The more successful the coin, the more valuable that 1%.

You could even set it up so that it is 1% starting 3 months from launch.  If another dev creates a modified client, then it shows that the 1% wasn't really needed in the first place.
global moderator
Activity: 3850
Merit: 2643
Join the world-leading crypto sportsbook NOW!
The problem with 0 premine or low percentage premine coins is that, once the developer dumps his share to the market and cash outs,

He basically stops supporting the coin or gives minimal support out of pity,

it remains to be seen which Devs are going to stick with their project and give continued support and for what reasons.

In a time where Bitcoin is almost unable to pay salary to its own Devs, it will get more the difficulty for 0 premine coins to develop and stay ahead of the competition and pay for the expenses to keep up with the challenges ahead.


Of course you would say that. And it's usually the opposite. They dump the coins they premined and move on to the next shitcoin.
Pages:
Jump to: