Topic: What is the drawback of PoS ? - page 3. (Read 1010 times)

Well, I was not here for 2016-2017. I started buying Bitcoin in 2018, maybe 2019.

What happened, should stay in the past. Now we know that new features can be introduced with no forks at all, even no soft-fork is needed, you can read more about it here: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-June/020532.html. Of course, sidechains can also solve "coin merging" problem, but I think not many altcoiners want to for example merge BTC and BCH into a single coin again, so there is no need for that yet. But it is just a matter of proportions, any altcoin can reach a peg again, if they don't want to do that, they are free to stay unpegged, just they should not be surprised that their coins will be left behind the heaviest chain, if they designed it to be a competition, instead of reusing the strongest source of SHA-256d hashes, no matter where it will be produced. They could do a soft-fork or no-fork back then, big blocks are different from small blocks only by the time when each tranaction is included. They could get it protected by Merged Mining (and commitments could protect them from chain reorganizations), and have their transactions included later, it was that simple. I guess people were just unaware of possible technical solutions that always existed, from the first released version. And they still are, including me, it is a continuous process of learning, what is possible.

Now they could issue their own sidechains. No permission is needed, coins can be created by signing on-chain coins, and destroyed by moving them. Nothing else is really needed, the rest is about making it convenient, and protecting mainchain coins with the right output scripts, to allow moving them if (and only if) each and every owner of that coin agreed to move back to the mainchain.

Pure speculation with no usage will lead us nowhere. If people want to speculate, or if they want to never use their coins, they should have that choice. Holding coins forever is like owning something on OP_RETURN. You can do that, but it won't be useful. You need money to pay for goods and services, the whole value can be created from real usage and real features. Of course it can be created artificially, but then it will vanish over time. And I don't want to make things that will be worthless after few years, I want to make a system I would want to also use, from the perspective of some non-miner and non-developer, who will have no power, and will just want to write some applications for existing coins. It should be still useful in that case, because it is all about control, and to make it decentralized, the creator should have no control over the network, even if it will be based on Proof of Stake.

Your question is one that someone who wasn't here for 2016-2017 would ask.  A lot of people poured thousands of hours and hundreds of thousands of dollars into building businesses on Bitcoin when it was younger and relatively unknown.  These people took insane chances that nobody else was willing to take to help build Bitcoin into something.  Then, suddenly the rules changed and Bitcoin was pushed as a store of value where users were urged to hodl instead of transact.  Many of these businesses found themselves asking users to pay $50 transaction fees to buy a 'cup of coffee' as they say.  Developers drew the line saying 1mb was the limit (look up all the shady stuff that surrounded the NY Agreement) and basically forced these businesses to fork the network or lose their entire investment of time and money, which they did to grow Bitcoin and was wildly appreciated at the time.  The world was watching and they didn't want to risk a rogue developer with an inferiority complex destroying their future businesses, so they eliminated that risk by issuing their own altcoins.  It was a perfectly reasonable response that was met with extreme hate, as Bitcoiners wanted their coin to be the only game in town, and for them to have to do nothing but hold it to get rich.

Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree. It's actually disgusting how little effort is necessary to convince a bunch of VCs to fund a crypto project. Because when the times get tougher and the profits thinner, most of these people get cold feet and capitulate their startups.


Hmm, I'm having "the great PoS crash of 2027" in mind as I type this.

The answer sounds generic, but I’ll still give it, because that’s how it is.

In 2021 alone 30.000.000.000$ were funded into crypto startups/ companies. You just gotta gain some hype/ knowing the right people to get a piece of the pie overnight, no long term strategy needed. You can become a millionaire/ billionaire overnight with just providing some cool show and a little code. You don’t gotta be a genius for this, most coders here could probably pull this off, if they want to and do it in a clever way. It’s just a matter of decision. This will only work for a limited amount of time, before regulations etc. jump in, so everyone needs to jump on fast to get their piece of the pie. After this they can live their life however they want to. And they will get a lot of recognition and virtue signaling at the moment, because they can play into what’s trendy at the moment(not using energy etc.). What they build just needs to last as long as they can milk it. Also it gives them full control over their users vs being limited by actual decentralization.

The alternative would be to work altruisticly on proposals like yours, for no pay mostly, that will have a hard time to give capitalists opportunities to make a quick buck in a matter of a few months, so less/ no funding. This won’t make you rich. It takes work, innovation and much more time etc. You will have to convince the hardest people and make it bulletproof. Without getting much/ anything in return.

The is a decision between quick fast money and recognition, or free altruistic work.

The results are what we’re seeing in the market currently.

That's the mistake of many Proof of Work altcoins: they use their own hash functions, or mine their own chain of the heaviest work, instead of being connected to Bitcoin by Merged Mining. The same with Proof of Stake: by creating new altcoins, the situation is not better, it is actually worse. Users don't need new coins, they need new features on existing coins.

There is Merged Mining, there is Merged Signing, there are ways to make new features, without creating coins out of thin air. I still don't get it, why altcoins do that, when there is no need, and when trading and speculation can destroy them, even if their idea will be genius, just because developers force users to choose between coin A with feature A, and coin B with feature B, they enforce choosing for no reason, why they can't just get feature B on coin A?

Wrong. Proof-of-Work is provably superior, because there's only one remarkable unit to measure it; bitcoin. It doesn't matter what the majority of cryptocurrency developers have to say, because the authorities' opinions hold no sway in this system. The creators have abandoned it, there's no "founder-expert" to address.

No Proof-of-Stake system has proven to survive like this, because no such system works so objectively and neutrally towards its users. This is why it's so valuable. It's pathetic to count success by the number of cryptocurrencies, because they're abundant. It doesn't benefit anyone besides the undignified creators.

In fact if satoshi or others that were present at the beginning of bitcoin had decided that they would mine large amounts to dump them later bitcoin could have very easily become a shitcoin too. It is only because satoshi disappeared and locked most of the early coins forever that bitcoin did not become a shitcoin.

It's because it's VERY HARD to bootstrap a non-scam/non-shitcoin POW cryptocurrency network, which instead makes shitcoin "developers" print tokens out of thin air to bootstrap their "POS network". I'm not saying POW is perfect, or Bitcoin will never die, BUT it has been running for more than 10 years, chugging along without downtime. Bitcoin's life expectancy will be longer than expected. The Lindy Effect.

Amico mio,

you’re naive to think that any new project with the properties i mentioned above, will even have the chance to compete for hash power with Bitcoin. Make a coin and prove that you can do it, otherwise it’s obvious that scams/ toys need PoS, because they won’t be able to compete with Bitcoin to secure their network. It’ll probably be so irrelevant that it won’t need any security tho.


It doesn’t matter what they want or if they outnumber me, because Bitcoin is actually decentralized. This is literally one of the effects of decentralization, it puts a limit on the influence, stupidity can have from the outside. As long as most node runners keep having more than 1iq, Bitcoin is fine. And they do. We can render billions worth of investments useless with a few clicks, if we have to, and adjust to any possible scenario that can happen. This is one of the few systems with actual separation of powers, we don’t sit in the same room with each other wasting tax payers money.


I won’t make it easy on you, because it’s easy to claim things and be vague. Tell me exactly which kind of abrupt hash rate drop you’re expecting. This is a worldwide network in different time zones and people can mine from everywhere. If people will make more money from mining, than putting anything into a non functional grid, they will do mining, as hard as that sounds. I don’t wanna see your face if Bitcoin actually stays more functional compared to traditional banking systems during blackouts.

Another question, how will you trade nfts when opensea and other centralized marketplaces looses power(or the people that use them)? How will you stake your tokens without Coinbase and other centralized exchanges, when their or your internet is gone, if you have less than 32 eth for example? Isnt there also penalties for being offline in PoS? This will affect most users of your networks, they don’t care about decentralization in the first place, so how are they prepared?



It’s a problem, but stop shitting your pants about it, PoS founders aren’t your friends or care about you. It’s better to realize this early than too late. They won’t save you from anything. Maybe you came here for fun, but it’s just obvious that the community here is way higher level than any braindead PoS herd(these poor amateurs still put fortunes in, while a scam was going to 0, because they thought it’s just a dip). Who do you think can outlive more upcoming challenges/ attacks? Pick who you put on your side more carefully.

Listen Kat,  

If PoW Tech were superior , then the majority of new coins would be using it.
The fact that you guys , have failed to name even one new PoW since 2020 points to your failure to promote it as a consensus technology.
Mostly the rest of the world has decided PoW sucks , and only BTC the model T of crypto is too lazy to evolve.

Funny , you have no issues with the money raised by blockstream, but all other devs are corrupt.  

Also in the old days there were a shitload of new PoW coins, and how did they do, well they died.  

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@tadamichi,
If you bothered to read the numerous links, I posted,
you see the people that think opposite of you, outnumber you.
And they want PoW gone due to it's ridiculous energy waste.
So you better get a dyson sphere built if you want to stop them.

As far as LN goes, Time-Dilation Attacks on the Lightning Network
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2006.01418.pdf

Rolling blackouts will play havoc with a PoW network hashrate for the 4 to 8 hours, (Forking will increase Dramatically)
this will cause some miners to overwrite previous blocks to gain bitcoins, and as such will overwrite the transaction history for multiple blocks.
Even the top 4 mining pool operators will have trouble keeping the chain as secure as they do now, since their centralized control will go wonky for hours, during the rolling blackouts. This will make the Time-Dilation Attacks on the Lightning Network so easy.
But don't take my word for it , store the majority of your BTC on the LN network channels and see for yourself once the rolling blackouts goes thru multiple asic warehouse, especially Texas.  

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@PrimeNumber7
While blaming 1 political party might hold a seduction for some.
In my personal opinion, every elected official since 1990s in every country has failed to secure our energy futures.
In other words, it was not one of them , it was all of them.
The energy shortages are worldwide , not limited to any single country, and have been over 30 years in the making.

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Because those who support PoW have no need of any other new, pointless, garbage, centralized shitcoins whose purpose is to just enrich developers and create new whales. You're going to need further persuasion to make a miner work for it. Unfortunately, we might not form the overwhelming majority. Most developers out there, with the slightest integrity, spend their time on developing apps to give solutions to notorious problems when an open-source libre software that has already resolved them efficiently exists.

That's good point, but @BusinessChain said "I am assuming a fully mature system here". I don't know his defintion, but if the coin is popular enough it's unlikely single exchange have majority of trading volume.


It depends on what kind of PoS we're talking about. On dPoS, you can simply vote delegator to validate a block where the reward is shared between delegator and all voters.

As your therapist:

We’re not aliens, we’re paying rising energy prices too. But you’re  making an assumption out of this, that temporary energy shortage = death of PoW forever. Which is not the case, especially if you’re actually decentralized and your subsidizes are worth a lot(they’re probably worth more than many altcoins). And you understand how governments work.

PoW works on the basis that no entity can control the majority of the worlds energy, if the world will have less energy to use for some time, it’s fine for the network to loose some hashrate. It will still be just enough to secure the network, in relation to the worlds energy supply. It would actually mean that PoW is adjusting accordingly. That’s what the difficulty adjustment is for. Bitcoin adapts to the real world without us interfering, as intended.

Creating some worthless solution that is detached from reality, won’t solve what Bitcoin can solve, it will run into other problems, when it’s not energy. In our next therapy session we will work on accepting that every solution has tradeoffs, solving 1 problem, but breaking 10 other things in return, doesn’t indicate superiority.


You only need the on-chain to open or close channels, you can keep it open for a long time. Maybe you should also checkout what the mempool and fee market does, there’s no jamming. Why do you keep ignoring that high throughput on a base layer leads to centralization. But maybe as a patient with cultist tendencies that’s something preferred. If you’re looking for this you won’t find it on Bitcoin. And if you try to bash designing things in different layers, then maybe i shouldn’t tell you that the thing you use to seek therapists, uses layers too.


Idc what altcoins do, and Bitcoin doesn’t need them to survive. I mentioned this, because a network that can use Bitcoins hash power correctly, will have much more security than any PoS approach at the moment.

And this is sheeple logic in my opinion that will be a benefit to the shepard for some human data-chain farming. I mean eventually getting that prized goverening currrency backd by some ink and paper called the dollar down to a value of near nothing before the nuclear fall-out happens. Lets take a look into ZIL and one other popular merge mined coin which I have absolutely have killed it on taking profits with both. Just because one of them namecoin failed because of something lacking in something I don't think it had anything to do with merged mining look at dogecoin ya dumzo what did that merge mine with and then eventually surpassed 10fold over a very notorious and troll of a sheep herder except that asshat got his finger up the governments ass and got some nice contracts to make sure he was getting his paychecks lol. I bet if that same tweeter twatting sociopath gave a shoutout on namecoin and why he thought it was better even though its most likely not actively being developed on updated or anything you'll get a 150% hike or more but now were getting into a zone that i'm going to take a step back and wait.

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Lets start with the very beginning. Where is this PoS Node most likely going to be hosted at? Generally speaking people flock right to Google, AWS, Oracle or what is the last one... Azure or something microsofts. Now I hate to say this guys but if you take the time and maybe read a Privacy Policy or Terms of Service once in a while. Specifically for where your going to be hosting essentially a reliable 24/7 Node that has potential millions of dollars in crypto in it that is validating transactions. Your going to be damn sure they'll be utilizing that data and harvesting up them Sheeples Crypto Finances and trying you directly to what was suppose to be Anonymous in the first place. I read some cool cryptic things a few years back on those Satoshi Genesis blocks. It was about how we should be using the power of anonmity to its fullest.

I've come to realize actually back in 2010 when I played with crypto a bit heavier it wasn't to hard to actually keep myself confidently ANON in the internet space. However realisitically I've come to realize that those 500 different bitcoin addresses I used that is tied to my cell phone bill with that front facing camera pretty much defeated the entire purpose of the anonimity sides of things right there. However I was more intersted in the P2P and trading. I've been working on that How-To guide for the everyday non technical user who doesn't really care to research deep into it he just wants the 3 links and short paragraph on how-to maybe one day i'll actually get it out there on medium. Right now though I am currently trying to prepare for that ETH2.0 switch by prepping up a LOCAL-FULL Node built using hardware I bought direct from the manufacturer. Reason being with this is well just research a pre-OS bootkit or something and what they're capable of doing and how easy they are to put into your ''plug-and-play'' machines. I wholesaled out 30GPU mining units ready to go just missing GPU's and go figure I had to go into every single one and securely erase all of those sata drives.

 I also firmly believe that PoW is the Go-To way and this POS hype Go green is a bunch of bullshit just to get your Data in fewer an fewer datacenters. To be honest the only reason why bitcoin started gaining traction in value is the cost in electricty that we the miners were consuming on a fiat level to obtain those bitcoins. So being said on a financal blockchain in todays ''mining economy'' its hard for any country to really honestly compete with the production of BITCOIN ASIC mining devices & chips at the rate which CHINA is producing them profiting from them and than reselling them to those drop shippers who are now handing those down to you the consumer. By then the difficulty has already surpassed what the consumer now has in his hand for an ASIC MACHINE. This was bitcoins glorified 'ponzu' tactic point me in a direction for a local manufacturer that can help me mass produce gerber files get me asic reels and print me out some boards at a rate thats cheaper then china(seriously I will pay a finder fee) So Proof-of-Stake can work but I can point out where 95% of those POS nodes are centrally hosted at one of them being Lido.fi which is unfortuante for me to say cuz i'm not in any DAO platforms but would be the one I would look into if I was not so stubborn on having my own local node rather as a hand on developer myself I can see my own products floushing from a node that I supported. For the services I will be building both as a freelancer and blockchain visionary myself.

Those are just my 2 satoshi's on the PoW & PoS designs. I am looking for friendly coders, visionaries and cool people who want to be apart of a private EVM multichain that will be utilizing A Proof-of-Authority & a Proof-of-Work chain that will have some game-changing things designed for mass adoption and transparency that we need. If your looking for something fun to work on voluntarily and get involed in a already small and tight knit group feel free to DM me.


Read above I did forget to add though one thing I am a fan of Cardano and how they did their PoS nodes the whole voting for this dudes node or that ones node to be the on validating and getting the bonus APR rate for hosting said node to me nah fuck that. Also I did like the security of Cardano using relay nodes to keeep your Crypto stake just that much safer. The only downside though is what this will do in the long run for those few people hosting these nodes letting that crypto just continiously compound is well.. Creating Whales LOL so avoiding centralization to be 100% genuinely honest is Somewhere inbetween how Monero is doing it and Ethereum ? Yet I mean why does that really matter at this point? Bitcoin is and always will remain KING of crypto and the reason being is it was the first and how did all these alt-coins and chains raise their funds you can't exactly call up a bank and be like hey guys can you wire this fiat money into this encrypted blockchain and get me out X of this crypto... right...... Bitcoin started with a value of nothing this forums traded it and turned it into a usable currency which those shepards who learned how to build blockchains themselves really knew how to go out and collect them all up. So rather then a bunch of nerds swapping BTC for FPGA boards or some cool digital game items without that risk of chargebacks extra fees and we did it Peer-2-Peer without that third party getting involved to get a cut. How Or that international wire payment costing $200 extra to send on top of high shipping costs already.

So you guys tell me with Machine Learning an Artifical Intelligencee right around the corner which I have played around with enough to know that I will be hosting my Nodes locally and you'll be damn straight I will also be offering it to my own community with some transparency on what I will be using your Data that you are giving me so I can do some high frequency automated trading on that data I am getting SO much faster just because its sitting in my local network. Okay now that I've said my peace here hopefully the fewe who read what I said can give me some constructive crisitism on my point of view or perhaps get some solid Degen bois to help me finish building this out. I'll be going for the business loan after july 14th The S-corp opened on the first of janurary and as a blockchain freelancer i've already made a 100k profit in this first quarter alone. Hopefully I can get it but I still highly doubt it EVEN though banks use encryption to send those wires abroad they still cant figure out the differnce between that paper-backed  digital dollar and that encrypted digital ''coin'' to allow me to get a business loan out since it is "too volatitle" haha well cool thanks sorry I grew up poor as fuck and just dont have the quarter million I've estimatd this entire struture to get the proper wholesale costs to solo mine the most profitable altcoin to exchange for bitcoin to HODL like a mofo while hosting my super cool ass bitcoin node on a few different devices.


Read above and I would like to invite you on my logic that isn't political in anyway? I'm just using what I guess comse to me as common sense politics are for smucks. Your in crypto bro you of all people should know fuck the government its not even worth discussion.

I invite you to respond to my specific criticisms in my above post.

The “energy crisis” was caused by Biden’s election, and his subsequent attacks on energy.

You got to love how hard BTC cultist fight to maintain their own personal delusions.
They claim PoW tech is the greatest, and yet can't point to any new PoW coins since 2020,
and even have the further gall to now claim that is a strength.  

Totally ignore the fact the entire world is heading into an energy crunch,
news articles & government sources, all of that is fud to the btc cultists.

The fact they point to an offchain solution as a way to increase onchain transaction capacity,
should make how delusional they are stand out.
One could point out that offchain solutions will fail, if the onchain is too jammed up to process transactions,
but the btc cultist sees only rainbows while riding their purple unicorn.

The stupidity of thinking Merge Mining will provide extra life to the BTC PoW party,  
Look at Namecoin (the first merged mined coin), to see how well merge mining with BTC works out.
Namecoin is now rank 588 on cmk, and all you see for it's news feed is No recent news for Namecoin.
Becoming a token on ethereum (evolving to PoS) has more benefits than jumping onto a dying PoW tech.
At least your token could take advantage of the smart contract system of ethereum.
 

PoS is the same thing as the legacy banking. Those who own the majority of the shares can do whatever they want. It is energy efficient that's true though. It is the only good feature over PoW. ETH was trying to combine both PoS and PoW. I don't know which stage they are in now but you should have an eye on ETH imo.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you don't need to stake 51% of the total supply, but only to stake enough compared to the total amount that was staked by others. Not everyone would stake their PoS coins, many would just store it in their wallets, there are some lost coins, etc. making the needed amount far less than 51% of total supply.
Most PoS coins already have a low stake ratio and those with high ones (70%-80%) have a huge premine which if removed brings the ratio to less than 20%.