What is the "empty space" in an atom? - page 2.

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Quote from: jinjuro on April 22, 2014, 11:37:34 AM

Quote from: Peter Lambert on April 22, 2014, 11:31:17 AM

Quote from: supernovax on April 22, 2014, 11:10:28 AM

This "empty space" idea is a holdover from scattering experiments performed during the dawn of the 20th century. Most of the space in an atom is composed by the probability distribution of the electrons in the atom.

These experiments, if I am thinking of the same ones you are, more properly explain that most of the atom is "not the nucleus", not that most of the atom is "empty space". Of course, they still teach the Bohr model in schools, so it is no surprise that people get confused even after taking "some chemistry".

The atom is like a solar system. The nucleus is the sun and the electrons is the planets.

right. that's why it goes 2,8,8,16. just like the sun and the universe

Peter Lambert

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Quote from: jinjuro on April 22, 2014, 11:37:34 AM

Quote from: Peter Lambert on April 22, 2014, 11:31:17 AM

Quote from: supernovax on April 22, 2014, 11:10:28 AM

This "empty space" idea is a holdover from scattering experiments performed during the dawn of the 20th century. Most of the space in an atom is composed by the probability distribution of the electrons in the atom.

These experiments, if I am thinking of the same ones you are, more properly explain that most of the atom is "not the nucleus", not that most of the atom is "empty space". Of course, they still teach the Bohr model in schools, so it is no surprise that people get confused even after taking "some chemistry".

The atom is like a solar system. The nucleus is the sun and the electrons is the planets.

They are really quite different. Planets move in predictable, stable orbits around the sun, leaving lots of empty space between everything. Electrons move in probabalistic clouds filling all the space around the nucleus, leaving no empty space anywhere.

sana8410

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An electron cloud is technically infinitely large, but of course it's more conveniently defined out to some sigma cutoff, which results in some shape for the cloud in 3d space.

kuroman

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Quote from: jinjuro on April 22, 2014, 10:51:37 AM

Quote from: kuroman on April 22, 2014, 08:04:50 AM

As for empty space
According to Quantum Mechanics and new theories, there is no such thing as empty as elementary practicals of matter and antimatter appears and instantly disappears in space but that's beyond what you need to know for now.

I believe too that is no such empty space. Before we believe that atom is the smallest particle until we discovered electrons and then quarks. I believe there is no end of it. There are always smaller things to discover as well as bigger things. Space is infinite, they call it universe but I call it multiverse. Space is just so vast that cannot see it all. Light is so slow, we will only discover this other verse once we discover a particle that moves a trillion times faster than light, but to discover this particle we must also need to detect/discover a particle a trillion times smaller than quarks.

String theory, I'll let you look that up

, but it really depends on what you qualify, by empty, and inside the atom there are physical huge empty space (vacum) on the long scale of time, and very short scale of time it isn't the case

I'm pretty sure than one of the last Noble prices in physics, was given to a scientist who made a numerical simulation of the empty space state inside an atome or something like that, I don't recall the details since I've read that in a while and they didn't mention the alghorithm nor the limite conditions that were used

jinjuro

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Quote from: Peter Lambert on April 22, 2014, 11:31:17 AM

Quote from: supernovax on April 22, 2014, 11:10:28 AM

This "empty space" idea is a holdover from scattering experiments performed during the dawn of the 20th century. Most of the space in an atom is composed by the probability distribution of the electrons in the atom.

These experiments, if I am thinking of the same ones you are, more properly explain that most of the atom is "not the nucleus", not that most of the atom is "empty space". Of course, they still teach the Bohr model in schools, so it is no surprise that people get confused even after taking "some chemistry".

The atom is like a solar system. The nucleus is the sun and the electrons is the planets.

Peter Lambert

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Quote from: supernovax on April 22, 2014, 11:10:28 AM

This "empty space" idea is a holdover from scattering experiments performed during the dawn of the 20th century. Most of the space in an atom is composed by the probability distribution of the electrons in the atom.

These experiments, if I am thinking of the same ones you are, more properly explain that most of the atom is "not the nucleus", not that most of the atom is "empty space". Of course, they still teach the Bohr model in schools, so it is no surprise that people get confused even after taking "some chemistry".

sana8410

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this is an unfortunate consequence of meddling by popular culture. "Observe" here means some interaction ("bouncing" a particle off of it); consciousness is irrelevant, except of course in evaluating the data.

supernovax

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This "empty space" idea is a holdover from scattering experiments performed during the dawn of the 20th century. Most of the space in an atom is composed by the probability distribution of the electrons in the atom.

Peter Lambert

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Quote from: BBQcopter on April 22, 2014, 07:26:42 AM

I've taken a bit of chemistry in my life, but something that's always confused me has been the idea of empty space in an atom. I understand the layout of the atom and how its almost entirely "empty space". But when I think of "empty space" I think of air, which is obviously comprised of atoms. So is the empty space in an atom filled with smaller atoms? If I take it a step further, the truest "empty space" I know of is a vacuum. So is the empty space of an atom actually a vacuum?

There are no empty spaces in atoms. There is the nucleus at the middle, and electrons surrounding the nucleus. It sounds like you are thinking of electrons as particles, that will lead you into misconceptions of atomic phenomena. The electrons form standing waves around the nucleus.

jinjuro

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Quote from: kuroman on April 22, 2014, 08:04:50 AM

As for empty space
According to Quantum Mechanics and new theories, there is no such thing as empty as elementary practicals of matter and antimatter appears and instantly disappears in space but that's beyond what you need to know for now.

I believe too that is no such empty space. Before we believe that atom is the smallest particle until we discovered electrons and then quarks. I believe there is no end of it. There are always smaller things to discover as well as bigger things. Space is infinite, they call it universe but I call it multiverse. Space is just so vast that cannot see it all. Light is so slow, we will only discover this other verse once we discover a particle that moves a trillion times faster than light, but to discover this particle we must also need to detect/discover a particle a trillion times smaller than quarks.

yayayo

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Don't forget that it's just a model. Nobody actually observed the so called empty space directly.

The same holds true for the various other exotic particles that have been discovered. Question is if we can even imagine the ''true nature'' of such phenomena as these constitute our own existence and our ability to think about them.

ya.ya.yo!

supernovax

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The empty space in an atom is not filled with smaller atoms. That space is a "vacuum" in that there are no atoms in it ...but an atmospheric vacuum isn't the same thing at a subatomic scale as we experience at our scale. A hydrogen atom is about 99.9999999999996% empty space.

kuroman

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Quote from: rohnearner on April 22, 2014, 08:21:24 AM

Quote from: BBQcopter on April 22, 2014, 07:26:42 AM

I've taken a bit of chemistry in my life, but something that's always confused me has been the idea of empty space in an atom. I understand the layout of the atom and how its almost entirely "empty space". But when I think of "empty space" I think of air, which is obviously comprised of atoms. So is the empty space in an atom filled with smaller atoms? If I take it a step further, the truest "empty space" I know of is a vacuum. So is the empty space of an atom actually a vacuum?

One other interesting fact is an atom is made up of 90% " empty space " and everything in this universe is made up of " Atoms " You , Me, this computer screen, the keyboard everything is made up of " Atoms " and atoms are 90% "Empty Space" so the interesting thing is thing is that the computer screen you looking into is made up of 90% " empty space " , now try to explain me this BS.

Explained above in my initial reply^^, the Empty space is due to the different forces (there are 4) thats rules the world, ruling the subparticales interactions, Strong, Weak nuclear force, Electromagnetism and the weakest of all Gravity. To really simplify this (even if it is far from being an accurate representation) look at gravity, look at the solar system for example, the solar system is filled with huge gaps , the gaps between planets orbits metorites ect ect, yet the solar system is a thing, the same can be said for galaxies, when you look at these megastructure, they are composed of stars dusts, planetes ect ect, and just to put things into perspective, the space between stars is so immense, the if you assimilate a star to a basketball, the next star (other basketball) would be hundreds if not thousands of kms away

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Quote from: Lauda on April 22, 2014, 08:30:37 AM

Quote from: rohnearner on April 22, 2014, 08:26:03 AM

Quote from: Lauda on April 22, 2014, 08:21:10 AM

Quote from: rohnearner on April 22, 2014, 08:17:02 AM

can anyone tell me what is god particle they refer to.?

Higgs boson?
You could have found that easily using google.
Here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson

Hmm that I know but my reply was my answer to the question asked by OP, I don't know if i'm correct..!

You aren't making any sense at all. What are you trying to say? Please try writing in a correct and proper manner.

Never Mind Sir I'll just give it a pass..! will study the subject more and will comeback with some new clear info if i get.! just give me few more years... maybe between 1k-2k will be enough for me.. !

notbatman

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Try thinking of it backwards, that space is a super-dense liquid crystal under maximum pressure and that matter is a dynamic area of lower pressure. With the pressure of the entire universe pushing on it one can easily see how a little atom can have so much potential energy and yet be mostly "empty space".

I hope this makes some sense. Now where did I put my tin-foil hat...

Acidyo

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I'd recommend watching the,new tv series "Cosmos" with Neil DeGrasse Tyson. Really changed how I view the world in 5 episodes. (there are 7 out now)

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Terminated.

Quote from: rohnearner on April 22, 2014, 08:26:03 AM

Quote from: Lauda on April 22, 2014, 08:21:10 AM

Quote from: rohnearner on April 22, 2014, 08:17:02 AM

can anyone tell me what is god particle they refer to.?

Higgs boson?
You could have found that easily using google.
Here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson

Hmm that I know but my reply was my answer to the question asked by OP, I don't know if i'm correct..!

You aren't making any sense at all. What are you trying to say? Please try writing in a correct and proper manner.

rohnearner

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Activity: 350

Merit: 252

REAL-EYES || REAL-IZE || REAL-LIES||

Quote from: Lauda on April 22, 2014, 08:21:10 AM

Quote from: rohnearner on April 22, 2014, 08:17:02 AM

can anyone tell me what is god particle they refer to.?

Higgs boson?
You could have found that easily using google.
Here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson

Hmm that I know but my reply was my answer to the question asked by OP, I don't know if i'm correct..!

rohnearner

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Activity: 350

Merit: 252

REAL-EYES || REAL-IZE || REAL-LIES||

Quote from: BBQcopter on April 22, 2014, 07:26:42 AM

I've taken a bit of chemistry in my life, but something that's always confused me has been the idea of empty space in an atom. I understand the layout of the atom and how its almost entirely "empty space". But when I think of "empty space" I think of air, which is obviously comprised of atoms. So is the empty space in an atom filled with smaller atoms? If I take it a step further, the truest "empty space" I know of is a vacuum. So is the empty space of an atom actually a vacuum?

One other interesting fact is an atom is made up of 90% " empty space " and everything in this universe is made up of " Atoms " You , Me, this computer screen, the keyboard everything is made up of " Atoms " and atoms are 90% "Empty Space" so the interesting thing is thing is that the computer screen you looking into is made up of 90% " empty space " , now try to explain me this BS.

Lauda

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Activity: 2674

Merit: 2965

Terminated.

Quote from: rohnearner on April 22, 2014, 08:17:02 AM

can anyone tell me what is god particle they refer too.?

Higgs boson?
You could have found that easily using google.
Here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson

Topic: What is the "empty space" in an atom? - page 2. (Read 2121 times)