Topic: What is your stance on capital punishment? - page 3. (Read 1212 times)

Are all wars justified? Quite often governments go to war with other countries out of greed and it's an attack on their country rather than trying to save it's population. The only time that war was justified in recent times was the world war. People wanted to fight for their country because their family and country was under direct threat. The middle east war that the USA and UK have been involved in was iffy at best

With your statement about capital punishment being falsely accused and then giving capital punishment to those who falsely accused you is that the best approach? Give this scenario you were falsely accused and executed on the belief that you committed the crime. New evidence comes up that the person who accused you did it falsely. So let's execute them. Oh wait new evidence appears to have debunked that the person falsely accused you.

There we have it. No justice what so ever. Everyone involved in the case has now been executed. Only their families are left to grieve. This actually happens quite regular in minor cases (not murder) although it's not completely bonkers to assume that this could well happen and may of happened in the past.

My mistake.

I agree with most of the rest of what you have written. However, although its aim is to serve as a deterrent, the data suggest that it does not achieve this aim (assuming the validity of the data in the absence of any counter-evidence).

I agree the price is ridiculous, but it is what it is. Even the price of long-term incarceration is ridiculous, as is the price of anything when it is run privately and for-profit (see: healthcare).

And again I completely agree that life sentences can be a joke now, with murderers being released for "good behaviour" after serving only a fraction of their sentence. If you received a life sentence, in my opinion, you should be incarcerated until you die, and therefore cut the re-offending rate to zero.

However, I can agree with all those points and still disagree with the death penalty for the reasons I have stated before. It does not act as a deterrent any more than incarceration does, it is grossly more expensive, and it kills innocent people.

I was specifically in reference to the manipulation of data via stats. Sorry for any confusion, but I was not trying to say that data cannot be used to support factual arguments.

It is a misnomer to suggest that the aim of the death penalty is to reduce crime in general. The aim is to serve as a deterrent when it comes to murder, and perhaps most importantly, to make sure that a murderer doesn't have a chance to re-offend. In addition, there are various other factors beside capital punishment that play a roll when it comes to these matters - and it differ from state to state, country to country, etc.

Furthermore, if it is true that the "death penalty is more expensive than life in prison," then they're clearly going about it in the wrong way. And when you look at the data, you will see that not all murderers receive the death penalty in states that support it - only a small percentage. They've become too soft with them.

The question we should rather ask ourselves is: "How many convicted murderers reoffend?" E.g. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/7147662/Killers-freed-to-kill-again.html In my personal experience in terms of where I am in the world, enough to have the death penalty re-instated.

It is also shocking to see how many who received a life sentence are already back on the streets. E.g. https://nypost.com/2013/04/28/record-number-of-killers-and-rapists-being-released-from-upstate-prisons-many-returning-to-nyc/ Scroll down on that page to see who we are dealing with... evil scum that I will not think twice to take out myself.

Sure, data can be manipulated, misreported and misrepresented, but you can't write off all data as non-factual, otherwise we would never have advanced past the bronze age.

If you have data that disprove any of my claims, I'd be keen to see them.

Let's ignore the emotional arguments for a few minutes (feelings of justice, revenge, etc.) and look solely at the factual arguments.

There is no evidence the death penalty reduces crime



According to FBI statistics, the homicide rate has consistently been higher in US states with the death penalty vs those without. Whilst we have to be careful not to suggest that correlation equals causation, the National Research Council report on the matter states "research to date on the effect of capital punishment on homicide rates is not useful in determining whether the death penalty increases, decreases, or has no effect on these rates."

The death penalty is more expensive than life in prison

"A 2003 legislative audit in Kansas found that the estimated cost of a death penalty case was 70% more than the cost of a comparable non-death penalty case. Death penalty case costs were counted through to execution (median cost $1.26 million). Non-death penalty case costs were counted through to the end of incarceration (median cost $740,000)."

"In California the current system costs $137 million per year; it would cost $11.5 million for a system without the death penalty."

Source: https://www.amnestyusa.org/issues/death-penalty/death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-cost/

The death penalty kills innocent people

Over 60 innocent people have either been wrongfully executed or released from death row in the US alone. And that's without even touching on the controversy of executing people with mental illness who may not even understand their crime, let alone the punishment.

In summary, you have a system that doesn't work, costs more, and kills innocents. There is no question that it should be abolished.

I couldn't agree more. If I was a murderer, I would rather choose death than life in prison, especially if it comes with hard labor. Not that I am not used to hard labor, but to have to perform it day in and day out under such conditions will certainly not be a walk in the park. Besides that, I am claustrophobic to some extent. In addition, I would refuse to be a burden on society. They either remove me from the equation or I most likely would have done it myself - after pleading guilty and giving the exact version of events, so that the families and people affected can have at least some comfort.

Is a life in prison that much better than dying?

Who says that justice or revenge is such a bad thing? There are some people that claim certain virtues are primitive and that we as humans must learn to overcome our emotions. Who can prove that they don't matter? It is my opinion that a lot of what people decide is moral, is rooted in our emotions. People like to think we are logical beings, but emotions are the true building blocks of our perception of morality.

The death penalty gives justice for family members. Knowing that the murderer is still alive out there is unsettling even if that person is behind bars. For the people that are sent to prison for less severe crimes, they can develop some of the bad habits of worse criminals. I heard somewhere that prison is basically crime school. If you spend time in prison you learn how to become a better criminal. You hang around bad people enough and you'll turn bad too. It is a psychological thing, you become who you hang around. Also it is one less person for your taxes to cover. I know that sounds callous, but it is true.

When I think about people individually I can sometimes empathize with people facing the death penalty and how much that would suck. Systematically it makes sense to establish it though when you think about the whole scheme of things.

My opinion on the death penalty isn't too strong, but I've weaned on the side of for it rather than against it.

Are all killings wrong though? Even when wars are started many people argue that it's still wrong. I'm not sure I agree with this opinion but it is something to consider. That also begs the question when is it acceptable to kill another. You could argue self defense but only a minute amount of cases actually require lethal force to make sure you are the one to survive.

The thing is people are getting sentenced to death when they haven't committed the crime and it comes out years after they are executed. This should be avoided at all costs but the only way of going about this is by actually abolishing it. If we look at some of the prisons around the world especially in Panama etc then the welfare of highly dangerous criminals isn't really something which is looked at closely and they live in horrendous conditions. Being falsely accused of a crime is bad enough to be sentenced to death is something else.

I would have to agree that a life sentence should be enough of a deterrent. Especially if you are in a maximum security prison. There's been studies on the effect of prison on innocent people who were falsely put in there and how it lead them down a dangerous physiological state so when people say doing time is easy then studies have shown otherwise.

I'm guessing you are referring to serial killers which are with out a down guilty. I'm not sure that a death sentence is still warranted though. Could you imagine living with yourself in a 4 wall cell with only your thoughts even if you were put into a cell for an experiment it would drive you to insanity.

I think you outline most arguments in your OP and address them.
It is a difficult question society needs to ask itself.

I don't think that death penalty acts as an efficient deterrent. Spending 30 or 40 years in jail, or even a life sentence, seems like a very good motivation to not commit a crime. I don't think that simply by adding more punishment we get better efficiency and I think statistics back this up.

Losing a person in our society, even if it is a criminal, still impacts us negatively. We benefit from every mind that is alive today, if for nothing else, to tell their story.

There is one type of situation where I am thinking that death penalty might be applicable and that is if a person in question really is so dangerous and competent to hurt others even if sent to high security prison. These situations are so rare however, so I don't think that this makes any significant impact on the decision.

I've been studying this subject recently and have had some heated discussions in the past about it with friends and the like. Recently though I've been looking at some polls which have been conducted and it seems that the vast majority of people actually agree with the death penalty. I think it would be interesting to have a discussion with the Bitcoin community on this as I tend to find that they are much more logical and open minded to things than the normal targeted audience that these polls are presented too. 

Quotes may be shorter than they are in sources to cut down on filler content and pick out the most important aspects.

According to the guardian[1] "China, Iran, North Korea, Yemen and the US carried out the most executions in 2012. At least 1,722 people were sentenced to death in 58 countries in 2012."

I think if we look at all the countries there the most surprising one would likely be the US. Iran which isn't on the greatest terms with American currently shares a common characteristic with America in terms of people getting sentenced to death. In fact according to this source between 2007-2012 America sentenced 504 people to death whilst Iran sentenced much less (156).

I'm not at all defending the approach that these countries take and aren't saying that 156 lives taken isn't worse/better than 504 as this is another debate and hard dilemma.  I personally feel that the death penalty should be abolished worldwide and I'll go on to list my counter arguments to common statements about why the death penalty should remain. Although I think it would be interesting if we could have an actual discussion about this and possibly my view point will change.

I feel that these are the major points people seem to come up with is either for revenge, justice, if the crime is severe enough or as a deterrent for future criminals.

First of all I don't understand why revenge is considered a good thing. In most major movies revenge is normally seen being done by the 'good' guys and is justified just because someone is the bad guy in the movie. Revenge doesn't gain you anything and the only thing you are actually doing is lowering yourself down to their level. In my opinion revenge should only be felt by those who are personally affected by the situation and shouldn't impact the public at all and therefore I feel this is a poor argument when it comes to an argument for pro death penalty.

A common argument that I see is that if the crime is severe enough such as murder then it's perfectly acceptable for ordering the death of someone. I fail to see the logic here and I would invite anyone that has this mindset to explain your reasoning. I think we can all agree that to take someones life is wrong and there's got to be something chemically wrong or what ever for you to carry out the act but this also applies to sentencing someone to death. You are literally supporting a system which will put yet another person to death. Let's not forget that basic human rights and that everyone has the right to live. You may not feel like this is the case in more severe crimes but let's not forget that the amount of news articles which have been released after someone has been sentenced to death where new evidence has been discovered or brought up which proves that the prisoner was in fact innocent. Is this justice? Is the jury, court and executor now murderers too?

Finally, the argument that it will act as a deterrent for future cases. Well I think it's a common opinion that people feel that the death sentence is the 'easy' way out and making someone live with what they have done is more appropriate. Although this brings up the point of the physiological affects on the person who committed the crime and how that may affect them. So it might not actually act as a deterrent if someone knows they are going to die shortly after anyway. It could also be argued that it doesn't severe as a deterrent anyway due to the amount of crimes which have been committed since the death penalty has been abolished elsewhere in the world. 






[1] https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/mar/29/death-penalty-countries-world