What possible events would make bitcoin go to $0?

derpinheimer

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Quote from: nuff on August 26, 2014, 11:39:19 AM

Quote from: drawingthesun on August 26, 2014, 11:06:19 AM

Quote from: nuff on August 26, 2014, 11:00:27 AM

It's built into the fundamentals of Bitcoin that once it attains a value, that value can only go up.

You'll need to define what you mean by "value" here, because Bitcoin has attained a value in the past that is much higher than its current value.

The fundamentals regard the technical aspects of the coin, not the human element, which is responsible for the price action.

Of course there are and always will be external elements. Market manipulation, hysteria and mania, technical glitches, trading bots etc. But the law of mathematics backing Bitcoin is that, when something has a value and is deflationary, that value cannot but go up. So as long as Bitcoin is used, it will have a value and that value, fundamentally speaking, can only increase in time. As like the value of fiat money that is inflationary, fundamentally speaking, can only decrease in time

So... you arent answering the question at all? You're just saying all sorts of happy thoughts for no real reason?

wasserman99

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Quote from: dadugan on August 26, 2014, 12:42:21 PM

Quote from: piramida on August 26, 2014, 12:36:59 PM

Quote from: giveBTCpls on August 26, 2014, 12:19:19 PM

Exactly, there will always be someone that will try to collect all of them. Imagine owning an entire currency, even if a deceased one, it would be the first crypto currency. It would have historical value. I think there would be people wanting to pay a big amount for it, just like a museum.

What's preventing you from making blockchain copy, turning your computer off the internet, and having the whole bitcoin to yourself - right now? What most of you neophites do not seem to understand, is that the code and blockchain and everything is a digital, trivially copyable asset. The one and only thing which gives cryptocurrency it's value and any meaning is the hashing network and resulting bitcoin evolution consistency. No network = no currency.

Thought it is the network effect of supporters from not just miners, but merchants, traders and consumers give the coin value.

The market gives bitcoin it's value, however it is backed by the network (miners) who give bitcoin it's security.

wachtwoord

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Quote from: drawingthesun on August 26, 2014, 11:34:44 AM

Quote from: negafen on August 26, 2014, 11:32:00 AM

If there is a nuclear war and all human die off, then bitcoin will certainly be worthless.

What caused every single human to die off?

Most of the research and analysis I have read about nuclear war shows that a large portion of humanity would die and civilisation as we know it would be over, but I've never heard of a scenario where every human would die from a nuclear war.

Never read (the book) or seen (the movie) on the beach? It's quite good

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Beach_%28novel%29

Qoheleth

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Spurn wild goose chases. Seek that which endures.

For me, it's a short list.

An effective attack on the crypto - partial preimage attacks on 2SHA256, preimage attacks on RIPEMD160, forgery attacks on secp256k1. In this situation, the ledger becomes unusable and it becomes a game of he-said she-said to get a "clean" snapshot for forking to sounder algorithms.
A 75%+ hashpower vandal able to maintain that position for months. With a clean supermajority a bad actor can keep parallel blockchain branches within 6 confirms of each other (thereby keeping the ledger from converging and making it unusable) as long as they maintain that supermajority.
System failure of the Internet. Bitcoin is useless without the gossip network; we've discussed how to theoretically fail over to HAMs but I doubt that'll ever get built.

I think Shamir User A dumping their 2.8MBTC would push us pretty low, but it'd be temporary. I think the development of a significantly better Bitcoin-like system would cause most people to jump ship, but there'd be folks left who'd keep swapping them as collectibles. I think successful, high-profile reorg attacks ("51% attacks") would shake confidence in the system to its core, but that's a wound that the network can heal by changing its behavior. Those are all scenarios that could conceivably push us below the $2 wall that I've (colloquially) referred to as impenetrable, but zero? Zero is a long way down; even those debased Zimbabwe Dollars go for a couple bucks a bill just for the novelty value. Bitcoins becoming worthless would imply, at least to me, that something had changed such that ownership itself couldn't be established anymore.

exocytosis

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Quote from: nuff on August 26, 2014, 11:00:27 AM

It's built into the fundamentals of Bitcoin that once it attains a value, that value can only go up.

Take a look at Bitcoin's past price development, please.

Buo

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Probably the popular double spending issue could make bitcoin's value crash, but I think that it will recover, btc won't die.

Ayers

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Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform

none, wasn't even at zero at launch, even if only one person(rich one) use it , would make it worth something

piramida

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Borsche

Quote from: dadugan on August 26, 2014, 12:42:21 PM

Quote from: piramida on August 26, 2014, 12:36:59 PM

Quote from: giveBTCpls on August 26, 2014, 12:19:19 PM

Exactly, there will always be someone that will try to collect all of them. Imagine owning an entire currency, even if a deceased one, it would be the first crypto currency. It would have historical value. I think there would be people wanting to pay a big amount for it, just like a museum.

What's preventing you from making blockchain copy, turning your computer off the internet, and having the whole bitcoin to yourself - right now? What most of you neophites do not seem to understand, is that the code and blockchain and everything is a digital, trivially copyable asset. The one and only thing which gives cryptocurrency it's value and any meaning is the hashing network and resulting bitcoin evolution consistency. No network = no currency.

Thought it is the network effect of supporters from not just miners, but merchants, traders and consumers give the coin value.

True, but miners are crucial for the coin to even exist, the stronger the network - the higher amounts of value it can handle. Different types of consumers just add usability, liquidity, convenience - which are very important for the currency aspect, but not that much important for the store of value aspect.

dadugan

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Quote from: piramida on August 26, 2014, 12:36:59 PM

Quote from: giveBTCpls on August 26, 2014, 12:19:19 PM

Exactly, there will always be someone that will try to collect all of them. Imagine owning an entire currency, even if a deceased one, it would be the first crypto currency. It would have historical value. I think there would be people wanting to pay a big amount for it, just like a museum.

What's preventing you from making blockchain copy, turning your computer off the internet, and having the whole bitcoin to yourself - right now? What most of you neophites do not seem to understand, is that the code and blockchain and everything is a digital, trivially copyable asset. The one and only thing which gives cryptocurrency it's value and any meaning is the hashing network and resulting bitcoin evolution consistency. No network = no currency.

Thought it is the network effect of supporters from not just miners, but merchants, traders and consumers give the coin value.

piramida

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Borsche

Quote from: giveBTCpls on August 26, 2014, 12:19:19 PM

Exactly, there will always be someone that will try to collect all of them. Imagine owning an entire currency, even if a deceased one, it would be the first crypto currency. It would have historical value. I think there would be people wanting to pay a big amount for it, just like a museum.

What's preventing you from making blockchain copy, turning your computer off the internet, and having the whole bitcoin to yourself - right now? What most of you neophites do not seem to understand, is that the code and blockchain and everything is a digital, trivially copyable asset. The one and only thing which gives cryptocurrency it's value and any meaning is the hashing network and resulting bitcoin evolution consistency. No network = no currency.

And that is why most/all alts have no future. Their networks could disappear in a blink of an eye, while bitcoin is constantly moving into dedicated professionally operated hashing DCs.

RodeoX

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The revolution will be monetized!

If one other person is using bitcoin then it will not go to zero. For zero to happen I think one or more of the following would be the cause.

1. Breaking of SHA. If this happens there will be chaos until stronger encryption is added to the protocol. It would mean a "hard fork" that would leave earlier versions of bitcoin unusable.

2. Loss of net neutrality. This could be serious. If the internet becomes a walled garden then your overlords my want to block ports and detect bitcoin software. They will then decide if you are going to use bitcoin or not. Your job will be to shut up and do what you are told.

3. Global loss of internet connectivity. In the event of a major nuclear war, catastrophic pandemic disease, asteroid strike, etc.; bitcoin may go away permanently. Although, it may be the least of your worries.

It's not, however, going to go to zero from speculation. As long as it is being used it will have value. And as long as it is the cheapest, fastest, and most secure way to send money anywhere; it will have a high value.

giveBTCpls

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Exactly, there will always be someone that will try to collect all of them. Imagine owning an entire currency, even if a deceased one, it would be the first crypto currency. It would have historical value. I think there would be people wanting to pay a big amount for it, just like a museum.

the joint

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Quote from: nuff on August 26, 2014, 11:39:19 AM

Quote from: drawingthesun on August 26, 2014, 11:06:19 AM

Quote from: nuff on August 26, 2014, 11:00:27 AM

It's built into the fundamentals of Bitcoin that once it attains a value, that value can only go up.

You'll need to define what you mean by "value" here, because Bitcoin has attained a value in the past that is much higher than its current value.

The fundamentals regard the technical aspects of the coin, not the human element, which is responsible for the price action.

Of course there are and always will be external elements. Market manipulation, hysteria and mania, technical glitches, trading bots etc. But the law of mathematics backing Bitcoin is that, when something has a value and is deflationary, that value cannot but go up. So as long as Bitcoin is used, it will have a value and that value, fundamentally speaking, can only increase in time. As like the value of fiat money that is inflationary, fundamentally speaking, can only decrease in time

No, this is wrong on so many levels. There is *nothing* about a deflationary currency that says anything about what its value will be or how it is determined. Instead, people ascribe value to things.

When you talk about the value of something, you need to ask the question, "To whom is it valuable?" Bitcoins are traded in an auction-style market. Bitcoins are only valuable to its users and indirectly to non-users who are impacted financially by BTC users, or more simply put, bitcoins are valuable to those who believe they are valuable. All it takes is for people to believe they aren't valuable or to stop buying and using them altogether for them to become worthless.

You can have inflation in a deflationary-currency market (like we have right now with BTC). You can also have deflation in an inflated fiat currency market. In neither scenario is there any information that tells us how to calculate or predict the value of a currency.

It's axiomatic that if you take away the people that ascribe value to BTC then BTC would have no value. Value comes from those who subjectively ascribe it.

GreekBitcoin

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getmonero.org

Quote from: Bogleg on August 26, 2014, 11:46:22 AM

Quote from: drawingthesun on August 26, 2014, 11:34:44 AM

Quote from: negafen on August 26, 2014, 11:32:00 AM

If there is a nuclear war and all human die off, then bitcoin will certainly be worthless.

What caused every single human to die off?

Most of the research and analysis I have read about nuclear war shows that a large portion of humanity would die and civilisation as we know it would be over, but I've never heard of a scenario where every human would die from a nuclear war.

When the world can no longer support basic infrastructure, internet will cease to operate and hence render bitcoin and blockchain in-operational.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_over_Avian_Carriers

Nope! Well there will be many orphaned blocks Tongue

Ibian

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What's with these doomsday threads? Turn off your computer and go for a walk.

Bogleg

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Quote from: drawingthesun on August 26, 2014, 11:34:44 AM

Quote from: negafen on August 26, 2014, 11:32:00 AM

If there is a nuclear war and all human die off, then bitcoin will certainly be worthless.

What caused every single human to die off?

Most of the research and analysis I have read about nuclear war shows that a large portion of humanity would die and civilisation as we know it would be over, but I've never heard of a scenario where every human would die from a nuclear war.

When the world can no longer support basic infrastructure, internet will cease to operate and hence render bitcoin and blockchain in-operational.

drawingthesun

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Quote from: nuff on August 26, 2014, 11:39:19 AM

Quote from: drawingthesun on August 26, 2014, 11:06:19 AM

Quote from: nuff on August 26, 2014, 11:00:27 AM

It's built into the fundamentals of Bitcoin that once it attains a value, that value can only go up.

You'll need to define what you mean by "value" here, because Bitcoin has attained a value in the past that is much higher than its current value.

The fundamentals regard the technical aspects of the coin, not the human element, which is responsible for the price action.

Of course there are and always will be external elements. Market manipulation, hysteria and mania, technical glitches, trading bots etc. But the law of mathematics backing Bitcoin is that, when something has a value and is deflationary, that value cannot but go up. So as long as Bitcoin is used, it will have a value and that value, fundamentally speaking, can only increase in time. As like the value of fiat money that is inflationary, fundamentally speaking, can only decrease in time

Unless another technology came along and made Bitcoin obsolete, then it doesn't matter how deflationary it is if everyone using it goes elsewhere.

The possibility that something better comes to market is certainly real, and it could drive Bitcoin to sub $1 even if only one Bitcoin existed in the entire world.

nuff

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Quote from: drawingthesun on August 26, 2014, 11:06:19 AM

Quote from: nuff on August 26, 2014, 11:00:27 AM

It's built into the fundamentals of Bitcoin that once it attains a value, that value can only go up.

You'll need to define what you mean by "value" here, because Bitcoin has attained a value in the past that is much higher than its current value.

The fundamentals regard the technical aspects of the coin, not the human element, which is responsible for the price action.

Of course there are and always will be external elements. Market manipulation, hysteria and mania, technical glitches, trading bots etc. But the law of mathematics backing Bitcoin is that, when something has a value and is deflationary, that value cannot but go up. So as long as Bitcoin is used, it will have a value and that value, fundamentally speaking, can only increase in time. As like the value of fiat money that is inflationary, fundamentally speaking, can only decrease in time

drawingthesun

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Quote from: negafen on August 26, 2014, 11:32:00 AM

If there is a nuclear war and all human die off, then bitcoin will certainly be worthless.

What caused every single human to die off?

Most of the research and analysis I have read about nuclear war shows that a large portion of humanity would die and civilisation as we know it would be over, but I've never heard of a scenario where every human would die from a nuclear war.

negafen

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If there is a nuclear war and all human die off, then bitcoin will certainly be worthless.

Topic: What possible events would make bitcoin go to $0? (Read 1363 times)