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Topic: What the Early Adoptors Don't want you to know - page 5. (Read 8615 times)

btcvc
newbie
Activity: 43
Merit: 0
Re: What the Early Adoptors Don't want you to know
June 23, 2011, 11:58:38 AM
#79
Quote
The deflation causes hoarding and the initial distribution allows intervention like a central bank - they can crash it anytime they like or someone can steal it from them and do a mnt Gox.  There's no one using it as a currency - you need vendors first.

This is exactly what we've been screaming about at Bitcoin Venture Capital. Without a thriving economy based upon Bitcoin, Hackesr AND the early adopters CAN and WILL control the market the exact same way GS and a handful of others control the stock market.

I tried posting on this forum multiple times to bring attention to our site which matches people running startup that take ONLY BTC as currency with early adopters who are sitting on a bunch of BTC.

So far we have haven't had the interest I'd hoped for, and in fact when I even suggested it some early adopters came on the forum and chewed me out -- trying to explain to me that it would be awesome if Bitcoin just acted as some unregulated forex.
ribuck
donator
Activity: 826
Merit: 1060
Re: What the Early Adoptors Don't want you to know
June 23, 2011, 11:58:25 AM
#78
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:34:57 AM
... you need vendors first.
Actually it has to be the other way round. In the beginning, bitcoins had no demonstrated value. What vendor would have traded their real products for Satoshi's first mined block?

The speculators can see the potential future value of Bitcoin. Through their speculation they propel bitcoin's market price towards its potential future value.

Then, when the market value gets big enough, it will attract plenty of vendors. In the meantime, there are lots of people working on interesting products to layer on top of the Bitcoin system to provide vendors with greater usability in the form of website code, pricing tools, arbitration and escrow services, etc.
truthcracker
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
Re: What the Early Adoptors Don't want you to know
June 23, 2011, 11:46:43 AM
#77
Quote from: malditonuke on June 23, 2011, 07:45:17 AM
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:41:29 AM
Quote from: malditonuke on June 23, 2011, 07:39:12 AM
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:37:31 AM
Quote from: malditonuke on June 23, 2011, 07:34:32 AM
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:32:50 AM
Quote from: malditonuke on June 23, 2011, 07:28:05 AM
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:25:12 AM
Even as an asset it doesn't pretend to be a currency and has intrinsic value.

"intrinsic" value
Spelling has no intrinsic value its purely communicative.  In english there were up to 15 different spellings of the same thing but people got the idea.  We grouped them together in one lot for the sake of religion and law.  I can see the value in that.  Have Uyo Notcied you cNa slitl raed tihs?  Weird - they did a study showing the human brain just needs the letters not the order.

the paintings didn't have intrinsic value.

If your going Nihilist on me there is no such thing as value.  But in the world everyone else lives there is, they just don't know there isn't.

value is subjective.  you know that.  nothing has intrinsic value.
People have motivations when initial distributions are skewed for influences other subjects into blurring what intrinsict value is.... you know that.... no matter how you spell it....

You're skipping over thoughts.  Speaking clearly is useful - like spelling.  d0 yuo jasdfjkhskadfuhy?

lol. ikn... um yes?
JoelKatz
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
Re: What the Early Adoptors Don't want you to know
June 23, 2011, 11:26:45 AM
#76
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:34:57 AM
The deflation causes hoarding and ...
This is a myth, deflation does not cause hoarding.

If you have a BitCoin, and everyone thinks there will be deflation, you have the right to hold that BitCoin and watch it appreciate. That is, a BitCoin today is the right to a BitCoin at any point in the future you wish. You could continue to exercise that right, by holding the BitCoin. But you could just as well sell that right to someone else for its fair market value. Unless there's some special reason you'd prefer to profit in the future, there is no incentive to hoard.

Say you had some gold. And say we all knew to a near certainty that gold would sell for $2,500/oz in a year. You could hold your gold for a year and sell it for $2,500/oz. But obviously, the price of gold today would rise to very close to that $2,500/oz anyway. So you'd have no incentive to hoard waiting for the price rise -- it would have already happened.

Most of the increases in the price of a BitCoin reflect not the actual deflation but greater confidence that the expected deflation will actually happen.
lathomas64
full member
Activity: 127
Merit: 100
Re: What the Early Adoptors Don't want you to know
June 23, 2011, 11:00:42 AM
#75
Lots of ad hominem and false appeal to authority going on in this thread.

Truthseeker, the post you copied in your initial thread seems to be saying that whether or not deflation is good or bad is a separate argument from the viability of bitcoin. I see nothing saying people shouldn't discuss bitcoin itself or its virtues or flaws in that post.

What would be a "fair" Initial distribution?


Many people(many being relative to the size of the overall market) are interested in being vendors for bitcoin(myself included) and this is likely to grow somewhat in time.

You blame the volatility on the lack of vendors and the lack of vendors on the volatility. If they are both dependent on each other then we can solve both by easing one yes? So as the market grows the volatility will shrink which will bring more vendors which should in turn settle the volatility even more. Sounds like we just need a critical mass of people in the market(not counting people whose only involvement in bitcoin is speculating on the exchanges atm).

There were some other points but I don't remember them after reading through those 4 pages of posts. I may come back and add more if I remember.

Thank you for sparking this lively discussion Truthseeker, I hope you find what you seek. ^_^
malditonuke
full member
Activity: 145
Merit: 100
Re: What the Early Adoptors Don't want you to know
June 23, 2011, 07:45:17 AM
#74
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:41:29 AM
Quote from: malditonuke on June 23, 2011, 07:39:12 AM
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:37:31 AM
Quote from: malditonuke on June 23, 2011, 07:34:32 AM
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:32:50 AM
Quote from: malditonuke on June 23, 2011, 07:28:05 AM
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:25:12 AM
Even as an asset it doesn't pretend to be a currency and has intrinsic value.

"intrinsic" value
Spelling has no intrinsic value its purely communicative.  In english there were up to 15 different spellings of the same thing but people got the idea.  We grouped them together in one lot for the sake of religion and law.  I can see the value in that.  Have Uyo Notcied you cNa slitl raed tihs?  Weird - they did a study showing the human brain just needs the letters not the order.

the paintings didn't have intrinsic value.

If your going Nihilist on me there is no such thing as value.  But in the world everyone else lives there is, they just don't know there isn't.

value is subjective.  you know that.  nothing has intrinsic value.
People have motivations when initial distributions are skewed for influences other subjects into blurring what intrinsict value is.... you know that.... no matter how you spell it....

You're skipping over thoughts.  Speaking clearly is useful - like spelling.  d0 yuo jasdfjkhskadfuhy?
truthcracker
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
Re: What the Early Adoptors Don't want you to know
June 23, 2011, 07:41:29 AM
#73
Quote from: malditonuke on June 23, 2011, 07:39:12 AM
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:37:31 AM
Quote from: malditonuke on June 23, 2011, 07:34:32 AM
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:32:50 AM
Quote from: malditonuke on June 23, 2011, 07:28:05 AM
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:25:12 AM
Even as an asset it doesn't pretend to be a currency and has intrinsic value.

"intrinsic" value
Spelling has no intrinsic value its purely communicative.  In english there were up to 15 different spellings of the same thing but people got the idea.  We grouped them together in one lot for the sake of religion and law.  I can see the value in that.  Have Uyo Notcied you cNa slitl raed tihs?  Weird - they did a study showing the human brain just needs the letters not the order.

the paintings didn't have intrinsic value.

If your going Nihilist on me there is no such thing as value.  But in the world everyone else lives there is, they just don't know there isn't.

value is subjective.  you know that.  nothing has intrinsic value.
People have motivations when initial distributions are skewed for influences other subjects into blurring what intrinsict value is.... you know that.... no matter how you spell it....
truthcracker
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
Re: What the Early Adoptors Don't want you to know
June 23, 2011, 07:39:53 AM
#72
Quote from: malditonuke on June 23, 2011, 07:04:30 AM
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 06:41:44 AM
I've listened to sefbot and whatch all 8 hours of the bitcoinshow, which is like an infomercial for bitcoins.  In all the blog pieces that are fed to the new outlets they write they downplay the initial wealth distribution like it somehow is irrelevant.

As an Austrian, its ridiculous to have daily speculation in a service that you want a vendor to use for everyday transactions.  Without the vendors the service usefulness is that of a casino.

Hmm.  Well, I'm not an early adopter (any more than you probably are), and I don't see anything more than a potential problem with the initial wealth distribution.  And if they really want bitcoin to be successful (and retain their wealth), then they won't turn the potential problem into a real problem.

As for bitcoin speculation, if you agree that bitcoin is, for now, a speculative investment and toy, then it shouldn't surprise you that it is volatile.  You understand that bitcoin may not last; so does EVERYONE else.  That's another reason why it is so volatile.

Luckily bitcoin isn't the world's first currency, so that it can ride the backs of other currencies until it learns to swim, so to speak.  Vendors can price in dollars/bitcoins, keep some bitcoins, sell the rest.  When bitcoins have a history, people will be more willing to hold onto it.

I'd agree with that
malditonuke
full member
Activity: 145
Merit: 100
Re: What the Early Adoptors Don't want you to know
June 23, 2011, 07:39:12 AM
#71
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:37:31 AM
Quote from: malditonuke on June 23, 2011, 07:34:32 AM
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:32:50 AM
Quote from: malditonuke on June 23, 2011, 07:28:05 AM
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:25:12 AM
Even as an asset it doesn't pretend to be a currency and has intrinsic value.

"intrinsic" value
Spelling has no intrinsic value its purely communicative.  In english there were up to 15 different spellings of the same thing but people got the idea.  We grouped them together in one lot for the sake of religion and law.  I can see the value in that.  Have Uyo Notcied you cNa slitl raed tihs?  Weird - they did a study showing the human brain just needs the letters not the order.

the paintings didn't have intrinsic value.

If your going Nihilist on me there is no such thing as value.  But in the world everyone else lives there is, they just don't know there isn't.

value is subjective.  you know that.  nothing has intrinsic value.
truthcracker
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
Re: What the Early Adoptors Don't want you to know
June 23, 2011, 07:37:31 AM
#70
Quote from: malditonuke on June 23, 2011, 07:34:32 AM
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:32:50 AM
Quote from: malditonuke on June 23, 2011, 07:28:05 AM
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:25:12 AM
Even as an asset it doesn't pretend to be a currency and has intrinsic value.

"intrinsic" value
Spelling has no intrinsic value its purely communicative.  In english there were up to 15 different spellings of the same thing but people got the idea.  We grouped them together in one lot for the sake of religion and law.  I can see the value in that.  Have Uyo Notcied you cNa slitl raed tihs?  Weird - they did a study showing the human brain just needs the letters not the order.

the paintings didn't have intrinsic value.

If your going Nihilist on me there is no such thing as value.  But in the world everyone else lives there is, they just don't know there isn't.
truthcracker
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
Re: What the Early Adoptors Don't want you to know
June 23, 2011, 07:34:57 AM
#69
Quote from: gusti on June 23, 2011, 07:31:55 AM
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:08:19 AM
Quote from: Vladimir on June 23, 2011, 07:07:00 AM
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:00:35 AM
 What did we do to get these shares?  Nothing really just plugged a computer into a wall.

Yep. nothing, just plugged many computers in to a wall and invented revolutionary currency and principally new asset class which has a potential to cut out lots of middlemen from money transfer biz and  often reducing transactions fees from 20% to 0.01%.


The invention was done.  The distribution was arbitrary.  Its going to be redone and if you've got a lot of bitcoins i'd suggest you start cashing them out so you can build bitcoin II


Every day I'm more convinced that Bitcoin is so elegant, well designed and revolutionary, that there will not ever be a better replacement for it.
 

The deflation causes hoarding and the initial distribution allows intervention like a central bank - they can crash it anytime they like or someone can steal it from them and do a mnt Gox.  There's no one using it as a currency - you need vendors first.
malditonuke
full member
Activity: 145
Merit: 100
Re: What the Early Adoptors Don't want you to know
June 23, 2011, 07:34:32 AM
#68
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:32:50 AM
Quote from: malditonuke on June 23, 2011, 07:28:05 AM
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:25:12 AM
Even as an asset it doesn't pretend to be a currency and has intrinsic value.

"intrinsic" value
Spelling has no intrinsic value its purely communicative.  In english there were up to 15 different spellings of the same thing but people got the idea.  We grouped them together in one lot for the sake of religion and law.  I can see the value in that.  Have Uyo Notcied you cNa slitl raed tihs?  Weird - they did a study showing the human brain just needs the letters not the order.

the paintings didn't have intrinsic value.
malditonuke
full member
Activity: 145
Merit: 100
Re: What the Early Adoptors Don't want you to know
June 23, 2011, 07:33:20 AM
#67
Quote from: gusti on June 23, 2011, 07:31:55 AM
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:08:19 AM
Quote from: Vladimir on June 23, 2011, 07:07:00 AM
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:00:35 AM
 What did we do to get these shares?  Nothing really just plugged a computer into a wall.

Yep. nothing, just plugged many computers in to a wall and invented revolutionary currency and principally new asset class which has a potential to cut out lots of middlemen from money transfer biz and  often reducing transactions fees from 20% to 0.01%.


The invention was done.  The distribution was arbitrary.  Its going to be redone and if you've got a lot of bitcoins i'd suggest you start cashing them out so you can build bitcoin II


Every day I'm more convinced that Bitcoin is so elegant, well designed and revolutionary, that there will not ever be a better replacement for it.
 

Move over gold cranks - here come the bitcoin cranks!   Wink
truthcracker
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
Re: What the Early Adoptors Don't want you to know
June 23, 2011, 07:32:50 AM
#66
Quote from: malditonuke on June 23, 2011, 07:28:05 AM
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:25:12 AM
Even as an asset it doesn't pretend to be a currency and has intrinsic value.

"intrinsic" value
Spelling has no intrinsic value its purely communicative.  In english there were up to 15 different spellings of the same thing but people got the idea.  We grouped them together in one lot for the sake of religion and law.  I can see the value in that.  Have Uyo Notcied you cNa slitl raed tihs?  Weird - they did a study showing the human brain just needs the letters not the order.
gusti
legendary
Activity: 1099
Merit: 1000
Re: What the Early Adoptors Don't want you to know
June 23, 2011, 07:31:55 AM
#65
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:08:19 AM
Quote from: Vladimir on June 23, 2011, 07:07:00 AM
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:00:35 AM
 What did we do to get these shares?  Nothing really just plugged a computer into a wall.

Yep. nothing, just plugged many computers in to a wall and invented revolutionary currency and principally new asset class which has a potential to cut out lots of middlemen from money transfer biz and  often reducing transactions fees from 20% to 0.01%.


The invention was done.  The distribution was arbitrary.  Its going to be redone and if you've got a lot of bitcoins i'd suggest you start cashing them out so you can build bitcoin II


Every day I'm more convinced that Bitcoin is so elegant, well designed and revolutionary, that there will not ever be a better replacement for it.
 
malditonuke
full member
Activity: 145
Merit: 100
Re: What the Early Adoptors Don't want you to know
June 23, 2011, 07:31:25 AM
#64
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:26:42 AM
Quote from: malditonuke on June 23, 2011, 07:23:15 AM
Quote from: kjj on June 23, 2011, 07:20:36 AM
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:00:35 AM
Waiting for bitcoins II.

And the initial distribution for bitcoins II will be what exactly?

Hehe, as if there is any question.   Cheesy

Your hehe is my point.  People are attracted to currencies either by force (fiat) or desire.  People desire an even chance

Like the bitcoiners of old were guaranteed that there would be a market for bitcoin now.
malditonuke
full member
Activity: 145
Merit: 100
Re: What the Early Adoptors Don't want you to know
June 23, 2011, 07:28:05 AM
#63
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:25:12 AM
Even as an asset it doesn't pretend to be a currency and has intrinsic value.

"intrinsic" value
truthcracker
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
Re: What the Early Adoptors Don't want you to know
June 23, 2011, 07:26:42 AM
#62
Quote from: malditonuke on June 23, 2011, 07:23:15 AM
Quote from: kjj on June 23, 2011, 07:20:36 AM
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:00:35 AM
Waiting for bitcoins II.

And the initial distribution for bitcoins II will be what exactly?

Hehe, as if there is any question.   Cheesy

Your hehe is my point.  People are attracted to currencies either by force (fiat) or desire.  People desire an even chance
truthcracker
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
Re: What the Early Adoptors Don't want you to know
June 23, 2011, 07:25:12 AM
#61
Quote from: ribuck on June 23, 2011, 05:52:34 AM
In other news, early adopters who bought Van Gogh paintings 125 years ago made more money than those who came later. Of course, they also took more risk, because it was less certain that his works would become so desirable.

People who bought them did so from a personal relationship with the artist in a human kind of way.  Even as an asset it doesn't pretend to be a currency and has intrinsic value.  No one printed off 21 million Van Gogh's and hoard 2.5 million then pushed them on the net - for what its worth - I don't rate Van Gogh myself.  and the guy didn't cut his ear off for love, he had an inner ear infection that drove him batty
malditonuke
full member
Activity: 145
Merit: 100
Re: What the Early Adoptors Don't want you to know
June 23, 2011, 07:23:15 AM
#60
Quote from: kjj on June 23, 2011, 07:20:36 AM
Quote from: truthcracker on June 23, 2011, 07:00:35 AM
Waiting for bitcoins II.

And the initial distribution for bitcoins II will be what exactly?

Hehe, as if there is any question.   Cheesy
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