What's so special about utility bills?

casascius

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Quote from: rahl on November 22, 2011, 12:59:37 PM

I never understood this either. I don't even pay any utility bills, just my rent so is a bit difficult.

Phones and stuff is easy enough to register on any address and just forward. How can they demand 2 utility bills anyway? Even if you own a house most people only pay one utility bill you would actually need to forge to not show the address of a property you own and it is electricity. Plenty of houses even close to cities have there own water wells and stuff .... I don't get it. Don't you really have any better proof of residency documentation in the states then this?

How about typing up a letter that explains that you only have 0 or 1 utility bills, taking it to a bank, getting a notary to stamp it, getting the notary to create a certified copy of anything that DOES have your address on it* even if it's not a utility bill, throwing in a photo of yourself standing in front of the house in question, mailing it in, and seeing what happens?

* Surely, you must have SOMETHING... OK, so you supposedly don't have

Water bill
Electric bill
Heating bill
Sewer bill
Phone bill
Cable/satellite bill

And you can't think of sending any of the following?

Passport
Motor vehicle registration
Payroll stub (black out the figures)
Auto insurance / health insurance bill
Welfare check stub / benefits statement
Credit card statement (black out everything sensitive)
Bank statement (black out everything sensitive)
School report card / tuition statement / financial aid document
Junk mail
Rental/lease agreement
Property tax statement
Medical bills
Cell phone bill
Voided check with your address on it
A notarized letter from your accountant / lawyer / employer / anyone in a professional or public capacity vouching for your identity and address

In my mind, those who can't figure this out almost don't deserve the exchanges' cooperation... The exchanges COULD go to the effort of making this huge comprehensive list, but it would defy common sense, and then you'd have idiots arguing themselves exceptions to the list.

In a nutshell, if you can't prove your identity the way they asked, try doing it the best you reasonably can, and see if that works. If not, don't complain.

rahl

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I never understood this either. I don't even pay any utility bills, just my rent so is a bit difficult.

Phones and stuff is easy enough to register on any address and just forward. How can they demand 2 utility bills anyway? Even if you own a house most people only pay one utility bill you would actually need to forge to not show the address of a property you own and it is electricity. Plenty of houses even close to cities have there own water wells and stuff .... I don't get it. Don't you really have any better proof of residency documentation in the states then this?

repentance

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Quote from: ALPHA. on November 21, 2011, 02:09:29 AM

Solution: Nevis, West Indies based exchanges.

How do you propose people get money into and out of the exchanges' offshore bank accounts without having to go through intermediate steps which require identifying themselves to the money transmitter/payment processor or paying astronomical fees for an international transfer? Exchanges with any significant volume need their deposit and withdrawal processes to be automated - they can't be running down to the local Western Union office to pick up or transmit cash hundreds of times each day and then manually entering those transactions into their system.

Offshore banks are great if you're able to keep and spend your money offshore. They're not so great if you have lots of relatively small international transactions every day.

ALPHA.

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Solution: Nevis, West Indies based exchanges.

repentance

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Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on November 20, 2011, 10:35:55 AM

Why, for heaven's sake, does an exchange that deals with an quasi-anonymous pseudo-currency need more information than's required?

Their banks require them to be compliant with KYC and AML regulations, which require them to verify identities (and often ownership of funding accounts). If they're not, the accounts in which their customer funds are held can be frozen/shut down.

The fact that the product in which they're dealing is Bitcoin is largely irrelevant - the primary issue is that they're moving large amounts of other people's money through their bank accounts. They need to be able to prove that real, individual people are behind those transactions. Whether the creators and users of Bitcoin want it to be quasi-anonymous doesn't give the exchanges any special privileges when it comes to processing the hard currency transactions necessary for deposits and withdrawals.

People aren't compelled to use the exchanges in order to buy and sell Bitcoin. They need to accept that if they choose to use the exchanges, their transactions are subject to laws over which the exchanges themselves have no control.

Phinnaeus Gage

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Quote from: notme on November 20, 2011, 08:19:46 PM

Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on November 20, 2011, 07:54:43 PM

Quote from: casascius on November 20, 2011, 12:51:29 PM

Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on November 20, 2011, 10:35:55 AM

Here's the rub.

I'm not doing business with any Bitcoin related enterprise that requires me to provide them a copy of my driver's license, let alone a copy of my utility bill. The last thing I want is some kid pissed off at me and finding out that I own a lumber yard in Sandwich, Illinois. Note to self: Increase insurance coverage on the lumber warehouse, Monday.

Why, for heaven's sake, does an exchange that deals with an quasi-anonymous pseudo-currency need more information than's required?

Because some kid from Japan might spend $1000 USD on an airline ticket to steal lumber he can't even take home?

Presumably the exchanges want to comply with the law so they don't get shut down, and the law requires knowing their customer.

That does make sense. (the second sentence--not the first, though LOL)

MtGox is already having trouble keeping European bank accounts open.... They are trying to prevent the same from happening in other areas by playing along with regulations that "may" apply.

Conform nonconformity. Got it. What next? A state approved Bitcoin bank?

notme

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Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on November 20, 2011, 07:54:43 PM

Quote from: casascius on November 20, 2011, 12:51:29 PM

Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on November 20, 2011, 10:35:55 AM

Here's the rub.

I'm not doing business with any Bitcoin related enterprise that requires me to provide them a copy of my driver's license, let alone a copy of my utility bill. The last thing I want is some kid pissed off at me and finding out that I own a lumber yard in Sandwich, Illinois. Note to self: Increase insurance coverage on the lumber warehouse, Monday.

Why, for heaven's sake, does an exchange that deals with an quasi-anonymous pseudo-currency need more information than's required?

Because some kid from Japan might spend $1000 USD on an airline ticket to steal lumber he can't even take home?

Presumably the exchanges want to comply with the law so they don't get shut down, and the law requires knowing their customer.

That does make sense. (the second sentence--not the first, though LOL)

MtGox is already having trouble keeping European bank accounts open.... They are trying to prevent the same from happening in other areas by playing along with regulations that "may" apply.

Phinnaeus Gage

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Quote from: casascius on November 20, 2011, 12:51:29 PM

Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on November 20, 2011, 10:35:55 AM

Here's the rub.

I'm not doing business with any Bitcoin related enterprise that requires me to provide them a copy of my driver's license, let alone a copy of my utility bill. The last thing I want is some kid pissed off at me and finding out that I own a lumber yard in Sandwich, Illinois. Note to self: Increase insurance coverage on the lumber warehouse, Monday.

Why, for heaven's sake, does an exchange that deals with an quasi-anonymous pseudo-currency need more information than's required?

Because some kid from Japan might spend $1000 USD on an airline ticket to steal lumber he can't even take home?

Presumably the exchanges want to comply with the law so they don't get shut down, and the law requires knowing their customer.

That does make sense. (the second sentence--not the first, though LOL)

casascius

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Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on November 20, 2011, 10:35:55 AM

Here's the rub.

I'm not doing business with any Bitcoin related enterprise that requires me to provide them a copy of my driver's license, let alone a copy of my utility bill. The last thing I want is some kid pissed off at me and finding out that I own a lumber yard in Sandwich, Illinois. Note to self: Increase insurance coverage on the lumber warehouse, Monday.

Why, for heaven's sake, does an exchange that deals with an quasi-anonymous pseudo-currency need more information than's required?

Because some kid from Japan might spend $1000 USD on an airline ticket to steal lumber he can't even take home?

Presumably the exchanges want to comply with the law so they don't get shut down, and the law requires knowing their customer.

Phinnaeus Gage

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Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending

Here's the rub.

I'm not doing business with any Bitcoin related enterprise that requires me to provide them a copy of my driver's license, let alone a copy of my utility bill. The last thing I want is some kid pissed off at me and finding out that I own a lumber yard in Sandwich, Illinois. Note to self: Increase insurance coverage on the lumber warehouse, Monday.

Why, for heaven's sake, does an exchange that deals with an quasi-anonymous pseudo-currency need more information than's required?

casascius

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Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on November 20, 2011, 01:56:23 AM

And what about those whose utilities are included in their rent? Don't drive and take a bus to work? There are people in Chicago that fit that bill. Normal people with normal jobs, but...

A copy of a lease/rental agreement would typically serve the same purpose, especially with the part about the included utilities highlighted.

repentance

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We have a 100 points ID system here. Utility bills can be used but they aren't one of the primary documents and so they're worth less points. The various documents/cards combined must provide evidence of your name, date of birth, your current address (that's why utility bills must be recent), your signature, and your photo. Government issued documents/cards with unique identifiers are worth more points because in most cases they also require you to have verified your identity.

Oddly enough, you don't need to provide ID to open utility accounts here.

Phinnaeus Gage

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And what about those whose utilities are included in their rent? Don't drive and take a bus to work? There are people in Chicago that fit that bill. Normal people with normal jobs, but...

payb.tc

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Quote from: casascius on November 19, 2011, 09:54:14 PM

Quote from: payb.tc on November 19, 2011, 09:48:02 PM

Quote from: jago25_98 on November 19, 2011, 09:20:14 PM

It's a real bummer if you have a goal of not paying bills because you don't like debts or just like to keep things simple (for example)

it's also a real bummer if you always use a PO box for all your mail and have practically nothing with your home address printed on it.

Does the electricity or the gas go to heat and light the PO box itself? If not, your utility bill almost certainly lists a "service address".

no. the gas and power comes to my house. but the bill for it goes to my po box and does not list the address that the gas/electricity was used at. just my name, my account number and the amount owing, etc.

casascius

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Quote from: payb.tc on November 19, 2011, 09:48:02 PM

Quote from: jago25_98 on November 19, 2011, 09:20:14 PM

It's a real bummer if you have a goal of not paying bills because you don't like debts or just like to keep things simple (for example)

it's also a real bummer if you always use a PO box for all your mail and have practically nothing with your home address printed on it.

Does the electricity or the gas go to heat and light the PO box itself? If not, your utility bill almost certainly lists a "service address".

casascius

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Quote from: jago25_98 on November 19, 2011, 09:20:14 PM

It's a real bummer if you have a goal of not paying bills because you don't like debts or just like to keep things simple (for example)

If you don't want debt, isn't paying the bill what you want to do?

payb.tc

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Quote from: jago25_98 on November 19, 2011, 09:20:14 PM

It's a real bummer if you have a goal of not paying bills because you don't like debts or just like to keep things simple (for example)

it's also a real bummer if you always use a PO box for all your mail and have practically nothing with your home address printed on it.

jago25_98

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Crypto Geek

It's a real bummer if you have a goal of not paying bills because you don't like debts or just like to keep things simple (for example)

Hawker

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Quote from: Grinder on November 19, 2011, 02:36:42 PM

I'm just curious. US companies are some times asking for one when they want to verify info, but I haven't seen it used for this elsewhere and it never happens in my country. It doesn't seem very reliable to me.

They ask for your ID and 2 utility bills. So the work needed to spoof the ID is trebled.

casascius

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It lends credibility to your address as being current, provides a valuable heuristic suggesting you actually live at the address (not just that you can receive mail sent there), and increases the burden on someone who would go to the effort of a fake / photoshopped ID, without being too difficult for honest people.

To the extent this refers to MtGox, I have heard many people complain that they are getting as they say "goxxed" because they can't provide a utility bill. If I were in that situation, I would do whatever else made sense to document my identity to them well enough that they could plausibly claim they did their due diligence, since clearly they are interested in being able to prove who they are dealing with, not finding out how much electricity or water or natural gas they use. Least of all, I would go to a notary and ask for a "certified copy" of my ID and mail it to MtGox's address in Japan.

Topic: What's so special about utility bills? (Read 2123 times)